[mikema63]

The horror of having to put a D on the voter registration form at no cost to yourself and no obligations. Someone might find out and make a weird face at you!

[anna]

In a de facto two party system with restricted ballot and debate access, closed primaries are extremely unfair.

No they're not. It can keep one party from sabotaging the other, the way Rush has suggested doing in the past. If someone wants to cross party lines, they can change their registration to vote for the other candidate.

When it comes to debates, there may be a disadvantage for lower-potential candidates in a very large primary field - the GOP had that problem with their two-tiered debate system in 2016.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Having a female president would be nice. It is pointless (and stupid) to have a female president for the sake of having a female president.

Yes, but I think it matters more to Democrats than it should and had they won they would have felt vindicated.

AKA he didn't get support from a very large and important part of the democratic primary base, minority voters. The lengths to which people will go dancing around one of the most fundamental challenges for bernies campaign and the campaign of any future white progressive is pretty hilarious.

If not for the blacks bernie would have fixed everything.

It might well be true that Bernie would have lost due to the lack of minority support, but that ignores the fact that Democrats have maneuvered themselves into this identity politics corner.

[mikema63]

Democrats didn't maneuver themselves anywhere, identity politics is code for policies that minorities benefit from. Minorities vote in democratic primaries and so they get "identity politics" represented.

It's not some magical or Machiavellian force the DNC has unleashed upon the land.

Lots of voters want X and will sink your campaign if you don't convince them you'll give them X and so if you don't offer X your fucked. The DNC didn't make people think, say, reducing police violence or allowing gay marriage was good for them. Gay people wanted gay marriage and african americans would like to not be shot.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Identity politics, as practiced by progressives today, is code for superficial characteristics like skin colour and sex being more important than policies. Clinton was expected to get massive support from women because she was a woman.

It's one thing to acknowledge that these superficial qualities play a role, but it's another thing entirely to elevate them to become fundamental credentials.

[mikema63]

What on earth is superficial about Police violence, systemic racism in the US, gay marriage, attacks on trans people, and the various real problems these groups face?

It's been the crusade of the right to paint this issues as simply superficial stuff people are pushing for to paper over the real issues minority groups face that are inconvenient to the right.

Clinton was expected to get support from women because she's been an advocate for women's rights and issues for decades. The only reason she lost white women specifically by a narrow margin is because the white resentment that The trump fire ran on was more important to enough white women.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

What on earth is superficial about Police violence, systemic racism in the US, gay marriage, attacks on trans people, and the various real problems these groups face?

It's been the crusade of the right to paint this issues as simply superficial stuff people are pushing for to paper over the real issues minority groups face that are inconvenient to the right.

Clinton was expected to get support from women because she's been an advocate for women's rights and issues for decades. The only reason she lost white women specifically by a narrow margin is because the white resentment that The trump fire ran on was more important to enough white women.

Why then is "diversity" among the top priorities of the Democrats? Why is it acceptable again for job adverts to include "x need not apply" where x happens to be men?

Edit: Just realised that the job adverts for females only were not from the US, so feel free to disregard the second sentence.

[mikema63]

Diversity is a word used in a variety of ways but generally signifies the goal of having more equal representation of the demographics of your society.

The job advert thing can only be what I imagine is whining about affirmative action and the goal of that is to create equal ground for minority candidates. Studies have shown that identical resumes with only the applicants race changed have different call back and interview rates as well as lower hiring rates. These are equally qualified candidates and one gets systematically discriminated against. Conscious and purposeful action to rectify this is more than reasonable policy.

Whiny rightwingers afraid to lose the racial edge they have in society is hardly a compelling argument to minority groups who again are the ones voting in democratic primaries and forcing democratic candidates to at least pretend they support their issues.

[Deutschmania]

AKA he didn't get support from a very large and important part of the democratic primary base, minority voters. The lengths to which people will go dancing around one of the most fundamental challenges for bernies campaign and the campaign of any future white progressive is pretty hilarious.

If not for the blacks bernie would have fixed everything.

Not quite . Sen. Sanders actually didn't do all that badly among African-American primary voters , for what it's worth . < http://www.npr.org/2016/03/28/472160616/-berniemademewhite-no-bernie-sanders-isnt-just-winning-with-white-people , https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/09/12/its-time-to-end-the-myth-that-black-voters-dont-like-bernie-sanders/?utm_term=.1dd2089a58bc > It's just that among that segment of the population , Sanders supporters were younger than those whom overwhelmingly backed Hillary Clinton . < https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/black-millennials-arent-united-behind-clinton-like-their-elders/ , https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/huge-split-between-older-younger-blacks-democratic-primary-n580996 >

[mikema63]

People don't stop being minority voters just because Bernie did better with younger minorities. He did well with younger voters in general.

Sure, I can't unequivocally say Bernie lost because no minority voters voted for him, but I can certainly say and it is certainly true that minorities and particularly African americans were a group that he had a lot of trouble breaking into and gaining trust with. This isn't stuff I'm pulling from news articles this is just an analysis of who voted for who in the end. (as a note, I think the guy in the fivethirtyeight article talking about how young people just think differently and the old farts just don't get it is so stereotypical it's pretty funny.)

Besides which, older voters not trusting him is also an important problem to face for any progressive candidates in the future as well.

(as an aside, you have a very odd way of formatting your posts. It might be a little clearer to separate you words from the links with spacing rather than the <> just a suggestion.)

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Diversity is a word used in a variety of ways but generally signifies the goal of having more equal representation of the demographics of your society.

Which is another way of saying that superficial characteristics like skin colour and sex are fundamentally important.

The job advert thing can only be what I imagine is whining about affirmative action and the goal of that is to create equal ground for minority candidates. Studies have shown that identical resumes with only the applicants race changed have different call back and interview rates as well as lower hiring rates. These are equally qualified candidates and one gets systematically discriminated against. Conscious and purposeful action to rectify this is more than reasonable policy.

I was talking about job adverts that are for females only. See here and here, for example, despite the fact that studies have shown that females have an advantage in academia when it comes to recruitment. It's therefore reasonable to assume that this has nothing to do with equal opportunity. It's not even about equal outcome but the goal is that women make up at least 50% in those jobs or industries that progressives have chosen. It's obviously fine for men to dominate plumbing and rubbish collection, but not mathematics and CS.

Whiny rightwingers afraid to lose the racial edge they have in society is hardly a compelling argument to minority groups who again are the ones voting in democratic primaries and forcing democratic candidates to at least pretend they support their issues.

You don't even realise the irony of statements such as this. There's nothing comparable on the right to progressives' preoccupation with pointing out that they are black, female, transgender, gay and whatnot. And the more of these attributes one can collect, the higher one is in their hierarchy. The relationship is not even linear. You guys have surpassed the right in terms of race and gender obsession a long time ago.

[mikema63]

Which is another way of saying that superficial characteristics like skin colour and sex are fundamentally important.

Only if you don't understand words. These superficial characteristics have shaped the way people have been treated in society for centuries and shape outcomes and treatment today. Dealing with these issues is necessary and pretending they don't exist is delusional right wing nonsense.

I was talking about job adverts that are for females only. See here and here, for example, despite the fact that studies have shown that females have an advantage in academia when it comes to recruitment. It's therefore reasonable to assume that this has nothing to do with equal opportunity. It's not even about equal outcome but the goal is that women make up at least 50% in those jobs or industries that progressives have chosen. It's obviously fine for men to dominate plumbing and rubbish collection, but not mathematics and CS.

Women have worse hiring outcomes and face serious issues of sexual harassment and abuse which has been something they have been punished for telling anybody about or complaining. Your complaint is what? That people think CS and math are more valuable and status worthy fields that they focus on over plumbing? Will the progressive perfidy of not pushing women into plumbing never rest!

You don't even realise the irony of statements such as this. There's nothing comparable on the right to progressives' preoccupation with pointing out that they are black, female, transgender, gay and whatnot. And the more of these attributes one can collect, the higher one is in their hierarchy. The relationship is not even linear. You guys have surpassed the right in terms of race and gender obsession a long time ago.

This is literally the fucking funniest and stupidest thing I've read all day. I'm just going to go through the charlottesville thread full of rightwingers defending NAZI's and racist rhetoric and laugh and laugh for hours.

Anyone anywhere that is willing to confront and address the obvious and unavoidable historical and contemporary discrimination against african americans, LGBT people, women, hispanics, and all the various other fucked over groups of people is apparently obsessed and out to get the poor innocent white right wingers.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Only if you don't understand words. These superficial characteristics have shaped the way people have been treated in society for centuries and shape outcomes and treatment today. Dealing with these issues is necessary and pretending they don't exist is delusional right wing nonsense.

Now you seem to agree that identity politics actually is about these characteristics. And of course they shape outcomes and treatment today. How could they not when progressives elevate them to be the defining qualities?

Women have worse hiring outcomes

I doubt it. They definitely haven't worse hiring outcomes in academia.

and face serious issues of sexual harassment and abuse which has been something they have been punished for telling anybody about or complaining. Your complaint is what? That people think CS and math are more valuable and status worthy fields that they focus on over plumbing? Will the progressive perfidy of not pushing women into plumbing never rest!

This is a pathetic response even by progressive standards.

This is literally the fucking funniest and stupidest thing I've read all day. I'm just going to go through the charlottesville thread full of rightwingers defending NAZI's and racist rhetoric and laugh and laugh for hours.

Anyone anywhere that is willing to confront and address the obvious and unavoidable historical and contemporary discrimination against african americans, LGBT people, women, hispanics, and all the various other fucked over groups of people is apparently obsessed and out to get the poor innocent white right wingers.

Even more pathetic. Impressive.

[mikema63]

Well, seeing as you've resorted to insults I think were done.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

This looks more like a retreat than a graceful exit, Mike. I haven't insulted you by any standard.

But regardless, I'm also happy to stop here, as you've pretty much demonstrated what I said about the Democrats.

[mikema63]

I didn't say you were insulting me directly. I'm merely pointing out that calling arguments pathetic is hardly an argument and more signals either an inability or unwillingness to address them. Which is certainly something that signals an inevitable shutdown in any debate.

I'm not overly concerned about what pofo thinks of me at this point but they can feel free to review the arguments and come to any conclusions they wish about me or democrats at large.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I didn't say you were insulting me directly. I'm merely pointing out that calling arguments pathetic is hardly an argument and more signals either an inability or unwillingness to address them. Which is certainly something that signals an inevitable shutdown in any debate.

I responded to the paragraphs that were reasonable.

Responding by shouting "NAZI" and bringing up sexual abuse in response to my explanation about hiring in academia is pathetic. In general, those responses that I called pathetic are one of the reasons the left often looks so unhinged, especially since it is no longer only the fringe which is engaging in this type of behaviour.

[mikema63]

Characterize me any way you'd like. At this point we both know we aren't going to convince the other of anything.

Would you like to have the last word?

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Rather than having the last word, I'd like you to explain how this reply was not insulting by your own standard:

This is literally the fucking funniest and stupidest thing I've read all day. I'm just going to go through the charlottesville thread full of rightwingers defending NAZI's and racist rhetoric and laugh and laugh for hours.

Anyone anywhere that is willing to confront and address the obvious and unavoidable historical and contemporary discrimination against african americans, LGBT people, women, hispanics, and all the various other fucked over groups of people is apparently obsessed and out to get the poor innocent white right wingers.

You seem to expect more respectful treatment by others than you are willing to extend to them, which incidentally is another progressive habit.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

Yes it's terrible when an ambitious person works towards things, sickening even.

It is sickening when a politician in a democracy feels it is their right to inherit a position in government.

Come on Mike get real, you've just picked a side and are following it blindly.