Cuba has proven that capitalism and technology are failures - Page 39 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14954787
Viva Fidel! :lol: He kicked Lucky Luciano off the island.

Actually, he kicked Meyer Lansky and Santo Trafficante off the island. Lucky Luciano had been expelled years earlier by Batista, after the US government threatened to boycott Cuba if he didn't. Luciano holding that not-so-secret Mafia Conference in Havana in 1946 under the noses of the US government rankled them. :lol:
#14954815
Potemkin wrote:Actually, he kicked Meyer Lansky and Santo Trafficante off the island. Lucky Luciano had been expelled years earlier by Batista, after the US government threatened to boycott Cuba if he didn't. Luciano holding that not-so-secret Mafia Conference in Havana in 1946 under the noses of the US government rankled them. :lol:

I,m sure you are correct. I was playing free and lose. What I am fairly certain that what he did do was move the location of the Mafia's planned gambling empire from Havana to las Vegas.

I was in Cuba earlier this year and saw humble homes of average Cubans on the ocean front. If not for Fidel the ocean front would now be lined with million dollar condos and gambling joints while the real people would be living far inland eating pig swill. The Cubans I did see and meet seemed quite content and healthy.
#14954822
jimjam wrote:If not for Fidel the ocean front would now be lined with million dollar condos and gambling joints while the real people would be living far inland eating pig swill.


If not for Fidel Cubans could have had basic freedoms and a working economy with decent housing and infrastructure.
#14958633
Or like the other Caribbean islands that the US has colonized/invaded?

Give us an example of a successful Caribbean island that the US has turned into a capitalist success story for the locals?

I was looking for the safest Latin American country to bike in when I visited last year. And Cuba is what I found based on that criteria.
Last edited by QatzelOk on 31 Oct 2018 17:01, edited 1 time in total.
#14958798
Hindsite wrote:That is most likely because the majority of the people can not afford automobiles.

Whenever something is better elsewhere in some way that doesn't correspond with the smiling models in our television commercials and their worldview, the corresponding "other system" advantage is blamed on "poors" which, of course, we have been trained (by commercial media) to hate with passion.

"The poors do it like this, so let's do it some other way."

If only those passions were better channeled towards positive change from within, rather than what you're doing here - defending the toxic hyper-consumption that doesnt even make us happy.

Stormsmith wrote:Hubby just called to say he had arrived safely in Havana. He's staying there a few days but is off to the east end of the island shortly.

Did he bring his bike?
#14958926
Hindsite wrote:Are you suggesting they don't have enough bikes?

I'm suggesting buying a mountain bike for use in Cuba, and then leaving it there.

I'm also suggesting bringing extra tubes, tire, and even spokes and a chain if you will be using it a lot.
#14958940
Stormsmith wrote:Hubby just called to say he had arrived safely in Havana. He's staying there a few days but is off to the east end of the island shortly.

Does he smoke Cuban cigars? I smoked a Cohiba (Fidel's favorite brand) Siglo 1 last night on the lanai and plan to bring back a few boxes when I go there in a couple of weeks. A really wonderful smoke.
#14959034
Yes, a few a year. I think we both prefer Rocky Patel's. https://t.thompsoncigar.com/thumbnail/CIGAR-BRANDS/ROCKY-PATEL/ROCKY-PATEL-VINTAGE/9756/c/10106/pc/9833.uts He gave the last two duty-free batches to his brother in law. Now, the rum is all his (and mine). Oooooh.... I must email him to get me a Che Guevara calendar. He bought me a leather Che Guevara humidor one year.
#14959930
Who can change a worldview with a visit
Who can take a rotten system, and suddenly make it all work for most
Well it's Cuba and you should know it
With each and everyone well housed and well fed

Love is all around, why don't you make it
Everyone's around, and participating
You're gonna make it after all!

soundtrack

acn wrote:Minneapolis: capital of solidarity with Cuba

HAVANA, Cuba, Oct 22 (acn) The American city of Minneapolis was for three days the meeting place for Americans who today maintain their commitment to support the causes of Cuba and promote better relations between both countries.

The University of Augsburg hosted the conference of the National Network on Cuba (NNOC), which brings together more than 30 organizations, and among other goals, it dealt with the ending of the economic, commercial and financial blockade imposed by Washington on the Caribbean island for almost 60 years. ...
#14976846
Sivad wrote:If not for Fidel Cubans could have had basic freedoms and a working economy with decent housing and infrastructure.


Like they do in Puerto Rico now? The USA controls Puerto Rico and what @jimjam said about condos and Puerto Ricans not living in any of the best beaches, high unemployment and no electricity and no running water and sheer shit is the reality. It would have happened to Cuba for sure.
#14976850
Tainari88 wrote:Like they do in Puerto Rico now?


The fact that Cubans emigrate to PR in droves and very very few Puerto Ricans emigrate to Cuba tells the story. I'll start taking you people seriously when you permanently relocate to Cuba, otherwise it's just bullshit apologetics. Put up or shut up.
#14976852
4 Categories of Castro Apologetics, and the Anti-Individualism That Knits Them Together
Bad things happen when you wave off cases of individual repression, either home or abroad.

it is potentially useful to examine the categories of apologetics for the advanced authoritarian who just expired 90 miles away. Since bad political argumentation is fungible across ideological and partisan lines, chances are versions of these tacks will be deployed in service of hand-wavery about our current and future caudillos, as they certainly have been in the past.

Category 1: Trudeautastic euphemism. Amply covered in this space by Anthony Fisher and Nick Gillespie, this is the practice of cramming into a brief anodyne phrase one's entire acknowledgment that just maybe there might be legitimate objections to a murderous dictator who impoverished his country and banned the Beatles while advocating first-strike nuclear attacks on the United States and throwing gays into camps. See, for example, the phrase "A controversial figure for sure," in this glowing tribute from Peter Schwab, author of Cuba: Confronting the U.S. Embargo.

Category 2:The last gasp of Whataboutism. Or, "the enemy of the target of my domestic criticism is my 'controversial figure.'"

"Whataboutism" refers to the Cold War commie tactic, embraced by many domestic doves, of immediately changing the subject from communist tyranny to American sin, whether it be in domestic treatment of minorities or foreign militarism abroad. Since Castro's Revolution promised (though did not deliver) the abolition of racism while providing safe harbor to several fugitive Black Panthers, in addition to surviving multiple attacks both literal and attritional from the Yanquis to the north, the whataboutism was rich with potential examples.

You could see this prematurely world-weary tic all over this weekend's Twitter, including from the presidential candidate who won 1.04 percent of the popular vote:

Fidel Castro was a symbol of the struggle for justice in the shadow of empire. Presente!
— Dr. Jill Stein (@DrJillStein) November 27, 2016

You could also read it on the Instagram feed of famously lefty Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave guitarist Tom Morello:

"With what morality can the US leaders talk of human rights in a country where there are millionaires and beggars, where blacks face discrimination and great masses of Chicanos, Puerto Ricans and Latin Americans are deprecated, exploited and humiliated?"-Fidel. While I don't agree with all that Fidel Castro did[*] there is ample reason why he is vilified in the US and yet remains a huge hero throughout the Third World. By defying Yankee imperialism for 50 years, instituting the best healthcare, child immunization and literacy systems in the Western Hemisphere (surpassing the US and Canada), exporting doctors to countries in need all over the globe (the Bush administration turned down his offer to send medical teams to New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina), and being an unrepentant advocate of the poor and exploited it is no surprise that millions will mourn his passing. Audioslave was the first US rock band to ever play in Cuba and that experience will be one I will always treasure, especially the trip we took to a former country club of the wealthy that had been turned into a free college for gifted musicians. #vivalarevolucion #RIPFidel

* See Category 1. (Also, read my Rage Against the Machine anecdote from 1998 Havana here.)

Category 3: Yeah, I remember my first beer. During big news events it's hard to stand out amongst the cacophony of commentary, so hats off, I guess, to Ronald Howell, who—God help his students—"teaches English and journalism at Brooklyn College." This is how Howell marked Castro's passing in the New York Daily News:

Okay, the media failed supremely in not realizing Americans could elect an empty-headed, knee-jerk liar as President. But, still, I say the greatest media shortcoming of the past half century was not recognizing that Fidel Castro was the most dedicated and powerful proponent of racial justice the world has ever known.

That would be news to, among many other people, the late Black Panther hijacker Bill Brent, who I interviewed at length in Havana 18 years ago, and who at the time of his death was working on a book documenting the Revolution's failures on race relations. Though apparently the Medium account of Black Lives Matter hasn't quite caught up.

Category 4: Celebrity testimonials. Since the actually revolutionary portion of the Revolution, as the great Glenn Garvin has documented in the pages of Reason (and if you haven't read Garvin's Miami Herald Castro obit, drop what you're doing and check it out now), the bearded bastard has played Western intelligentsia like a flute. Not unlike the way Vaclav Klaus was able to dine out for decades among Anglo-American free-market types with a few well-chosen Thatcher quotes and digs at Al Gore, Castro warded off international skepticism by cultivating key sympathizers.

Been to Cuba? I have. Against nondemocratic/censorship stuff but learn why MalcolmX/Mandela/PopeFrancis admired him https://t.co/0nUm0n25v9
— Tom Morello (@tmorello) November 28, 2016

Or as Ronald Howell puts, it, "Castro's commitment to black Americans was shown early on, notably in 1960, when he came to New York City fresh from his leftist revolution in Cuba, and sat with Malcolm X in Harlem, cameras clicking for all the world to see." New photo op proves it!

What do these four categories of apologia have in common? My theory stems in part from a seemingly innocuous line in a rather pointless front-pager in today's New York Times about Fidel Castro's approach to sports:

Castro banned professional sports in Cuba in 1961, and several years later, said, "Anybody who truly loves sport, and feels sport, has to prefer this sport to professional sport by a thousand times."

His strategy worked for decades as Cuba played baseball against mostly amateur competition, or non-major leaguers, winning 18 championships in the Baseball World Cup from 1961 to 2005 and three Olympic gold medals from 1992 to 2004.

Italics mine. By what measuring stick could you say that Castro's strategy of banning professional sports "worked"? From the perspective of the individual fans? No, they saw vastly inferior baseball, once the AAA Havana Sugar Kings left town, there were no more professional leagues to attract Major League Players to play during the winter, and the island's best either defected or stagnated against lesser competition. From the perspective of the individual athletes themselves? Obviously not; here's how the great post-Revolution émigré Luis Tiant put it in an interview with ESPN.com:

You couldn't leave. You had to defect. That was hard, but the worst was worrying about your family and what could happen to them. They lectured you on what they would do to your family if you did not come back. That was the system. So many great players were unable to develop because they couldn't get out. There were so many good players who stayed.

[Castro] hampered the development of baseball. Cuba was the country with the most Latin American players in the majors until the regime took over and set everything back. It's incredible, all those players that were unable to succeed, so many good ones. When I played, when I left, there were 50 or 60 players as good as me or better than me. And they could never get out. They all stayed there.

No, the only way in which you can say Castro's authoritarian banning "worked" is if you deny the plight and agency of the individual, and subsume it all in favor of an up-down measurement of the collectivized state. This is, in the final analysis, what all these categories of apologetics have in common—the euphemism, the whataboutism, the juvenilia, the outsourcing of judgment to celebrities: They all gloss over or plow under or just ignore the fate of individual people suffering under a dictatorship.

That's a lesson for all of us. When your argument about a politician or a policy or a system waves an impatient hand when presented with acts of individual repression, it's a good time to step back from the keyboard or microphone or legislative drafting session and check yourself. Human beings are not here on this earth to provide propaganda fodder for a despot's statistics bureau; they are here to be free and to pursue happiness as they see fit.

The United States falls short of this ideal every day, which provides excellent reason to get up and get after it in the morning. But recognizing failure here (preferably by its non-euphemistic name) does not grant a blanket excuse for downplaying it elsewhere.
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