[wat0n]

Look do you know the history of Hong Kong and why the British had to abandon it in 1997?

The British love tea, silk, porcelain, and everything China had in abundance. They also needed what India had in abundance. Did you see the video I put in about 'Can the British be Proud of their Empire?" Listen to that. There are two sides to that story.

For me? If the British had to create the Opium Wars to gain access to the wealth of both China and India by dealing that drug to the Chinese? They are not very moral are they? The Chinese want their old islands back...that were supposedly forced out of them due to owing the British money because the British were selling them opium for the stuff they wanted.

The British government acted like the Mafia in my honest opinion. Give me my drug payment. Lol.

That is not a good example. Keep trying Wat0n.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Opium-Wars

Read that and tell me the British empire was on the moral side Wat0n? Dime...tu opinion.

Mainland China got indeed screwed by the UK (and many others, including the US). But Hong Kong? Many seem to prefer to be under British rule.

[XogGyux]

Most of Latin America is in deep shit financially XogGyux. Mexico is capitalist. They run for the border. Guatemala is capitalist. They run for the border. Honduras is capitalist. They run for the border. Puerto Rico is actually an unincorporated territory belonging to the USA. But they have us in political bondage and limbo with no progress. The Boricuas run for the border. The list is endless.

Exactly... Wether a country is capitalist or not does not garantee that it will be poor or rich. We can easily find example of poor capitalist countries such as guatemala, ecuador, haiti... and rich capitalists such as the US and canada. Tell me... how many rich communist countries do you know?

Is it because we are inferior and dumb? You are not dumb XogGyux. Neither am I. So where is the reason? For all this border running?

Mostly inability to pay bills in our nations. Not enough work, food, law and order, investment in infrastructure, stability, education and health care. Desperation and hopelessness.

The USA can't take in millions. They have to accept that. So do we. How to solve the problem? The banks and the rich nations and investors need to stop creating the conditions that lead to the border runs.

Let's do a quick thought experiment. Please humor me.
What scenario you think it is more fair.

Scenario A: You and I both get a job at the local restaurant. You get paid $100 dollars for your work, and your work consists of an 8h shift in which you are required to clean no more and no less than 100 tables. You are not going to be asked to clean them faster or slower than your normal pace, you are not going to be asked to clean any additional tables after you are done or perform any other task, and you will have a dirty table available for you to clean as soon as you finish cleaning the prior (e.i you don't have a downtime).
In scenario A: I also get paid $100 dollars but I don't have any pre-specified requirements, I can do whatever I want, or nothing at all, I can leave early or arrive late, I just have to show up every day to collect my money.

Scenario B: You and I both get a job at the same local restaurant. This time you get paid $90 USD for your work, and your work consists of an 8h shift in which you are required to clean no more and no less than 100 tables. You are not going to be asked to clean them faster or slower than your normal pace, you are not going to be asked to clean any additional tables after you are done or perform any other task, and you will have a dirty table available for you to clean as soon as you finish cleaning the prior (no downtime).
In scenario B, I get the same deal that you do, I get paid the same with the same conditions.

Which one is fairer?

As I asked Noemon before? Only independent nations are in a position to negotiate.

I don't think so. You think Guatemala is in a particularly strong position to negotiate anything?

Do you think the government in Cuba is going to pick up the phone and tell DC? Please take over our nation. We are incapable of running it.

Well, Cuba has had the same regimen for 6 decades, so clearly they are able to run the nation. However, they have done so terribly so. So I guess you have half a point, it is not that they cannot run a nation, it is that they are doing it badly.
The 1958 cuban GDP/capita was about $2,363, adjusted for inflation, this would have been roughly ~25k dollars. You kow what is the ACTUAL GDP/capita of Cuba today? Less than 9k, a third!. This country, rather than grow in the last 60 years, has shrunk to a third of its former economic power.
For comparison, the US GDP per capita the same year was $2,763, or roughtly 29k in today's money. You know what the actual GDP/capita of the US is today? 63k, a bit over double.
Cuba has been a failure, there is no question about it. From every angle you see it, it is evident, glaring even.

They have not been able to even get reliable electricity on the island delivered. Why? Greed. They want to privatize it and they sold it to companies that can make a lot of money off of privatizing such a vital resource. Greed is going to kill the human race with these monster storms caused by global warming.

Listen, I am certain that there is some blame to go around and some of that might fall into Washington politicians. But the vast majority of your people's perils are brought up by themselves, by the corrupt politicians that are elected locally.

It is time to stop thinking the capitalist model is the only solution in the world to all economic issues.

I am all ears. The moment you point towards the first successful alternative model I'll back it up.

Think of cooperating with every single model out there and taking the best of all of them. And applying all of them until something is hammered out and WORKS.

All of this is great in theory, but what does it actually mean in practice?

[Wulfschilde]

At this point I feel as if it's western leftism that has proven itself a failure. It was based upon four core arguments:

1) Legalize drugs
2) Open the borders
3) Print tons of money, it won't cause inflation
4) Get rid of fossil fuels, other things are capable of picking up the slack even if we can't show on paper how that would happen.

As it turned out, most famous western cities have been destroyed by drug-addicted hobos, many of whom are foreigners, so that ruins premises 1 and 2.

Premise 3 is dead in the water following COVID.

Premise 4 is dying right before our eye. In fact, when you combine 3 and 4 together, entire major countries (the UK, Germany, Japan) are facing historic financial crisis with no clear options for a good resolution. If this leads to economic depression in these countries and a decline in their standards of living, Ukraine will be the least of people's worries.

To suggest that Cuba is a role model, well, this seems to be a pretty old thread.

[Tainari88]

Well, this is demosntrably incorrect. Tools existed way before humans. In fact there are other species that make and use tools. Earlierst human tools date to 1-3 million years ago, earliest homo sapiens is just a few hundred years ago, so there were multiple generations of homonids that developed and used tools, technology. If you think humans can survive without technology, go to the middle of the african wilderness and spend not a lifetime, just a weekend, naked, without a single piece of tool, without clothes, and you are not allowed to use any sort of knowledge that has been obtained through technology, basically you are not allow to skip eating a fruit because you happen to know it is poisonous, you are not allowed to not drink the mud because you know it contains bacteria that will kill you in a jiffy.
Nah, you are full of shit. Without technology, the whole human race is just a much weaker, hairless gorilla, we would quickly get outcompeted by our more adapted cousins and go extinct. There is no place for an inferior gorilla in the world .

Inferior gorilla? I missed this post of yours. I spent two hours playing with my little boy. in a Mexican sport arena with a bunch of families. I am tired.

The history of how humans became humans is very interesting. Some of the most ancient ancestors of humans were this species.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australop ... _afarensis
They are very very ancient. One of the best specimens was Lucy. Named after that Beatles song "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds". Richard and Mary Leakey and their experts (Tim White, Johanson, and another person I forgot the name of) were part of the team that found her in Ethiopia. She is millions of years old. 3.0 to 3.9 million years old. Modern humans are only a fraction of that time frame XogGyux. Tanzania, Kenya and Ethiopia...have very very old excavations Xog.

Homo Neandertal and Homo Sapiens were two competing genus of humans. There are different theories on why Neandertal did not make it. And Homo Sapiens did.

But the Toolmaker human as the only species making tools? No. Chimps in Gombe in Tanzania proved that they make tools. Primates like Bonobos also can understand human language if they are raised among humans since infancy. They just can't speak because they don't have voice boxes XogGyux. Primatologists love their work. It is fascinating work.

What makes us human is interesting. Cooking our food is a distinctive characteristic of our species. Also gathering information like libraries, sophisticated art forms. Mathematics. A few others. Opposable thumbs. Bipedalism. To a certain extent.

No one knows what the very first human language is. That is a deep mystery that has fascinated linguists for all time. But, humans from all cultures speak a human language. The complexities of spoken languages is something that distinguishes us. But the dolphins, whales, etc come up with very interesting ways of communicating and can be considered language as well. They just use a different way of doing it because they don't have our voice boxes and they have not adapted to the land. They are creatures of the sea.

I am going to come back to discuss your scenarios tomorrow Xog.

I can barely keep my eyes open and my son is wanting my attention. He had a great time at the sports arena.

[Tainari88]

Exactly... Wether a country is capitalist or not does not garantee that it will be poor or rich. We can easily find example of poor capitalist countries such as guatemala, ecuador, haiti... and rich capitalists such as the US and canada. Tell me... how many rich communist countries do you know?


Let's do a quick thought experiment. Please humor me.
What scenario you think it is more fair.

Scenario A: You and I both get a job at the local restaurant. You get paid $100 dollars for your work, and your work consists of an 8h shift in which you are required to clean no more and no less than 100 tables. You are not going to be asked to clean them faster or slower than your normal pace, you are not going to be asked to clean any additional tables after you are done or perform any other task, and you will have a dirty table available for you to clean as soon as you finish cleaning the prior (e.i you don't have a downtime).
In scenario A: I also get paid $100 dollars but I don't have any pre-specified requirements, I can do whatever I want, or nothing at all, I can leave early or arrive late, I just have to show up every day to collect my money.

Scenario B: You and I both get a job at the same local restaurant. This time you get paid $90 USD for your work, and your work consists of an 8h shift in which you are required to clean no more and no less than 100 tables. You are not going to be asked to clean them faster or slower than your normal pace, you are not going to be asked to clean any additional tables after you are done or perform any other task, and you will have a dirty table available for you to clean as soon as you finish cleaning the prior (no downtime).
In scenario B, I get the same deal that you do, I get paid the same with the same conditions.

Which one is fairer?


I don't think so. You think Guatemala is in a particularly strong position to negotiate anything?


Well, Cuba has had the same regimen for 6 decades, so clearly they are able to run the nation. However, they have done so terribly so. So I guess you have half a point, it is not that they cannot run a nation, it is that they are doing it badly.
The 1958 cuban GDP/capita was about $2,363, adjusted for inflation, this would have been roughly ~25k dollars. You kow what is the ACTUAL GDP/capita of Cuba today? Less than 9k, a third!. This country, rather than grow in the last 60 years, has shrunk to a third of its former economic power.
For comparison, the US GDP per capita the same year was $2,763, or roughtly 29k in today's money. You know what the actual GDP/capita of the US is today? 63k, a bit over double.
Cuba has been a failure, there is no question about it. From every angle you see it, it is evident, glaring even.



Listen, I am certain that there is some blame to go around and some of that might fall into Washington politicians. But the vast majority of your people's perils are brought up by themselves, by the corrupt politicians that are elected locally.


I am all ears. The moment you point towards the first successful alternative model I'll back it up.


All of this is great in theory, but what does it actually mean in practice?

You are missing something vital about the Cuban economy. When Cuba was newly 'taken over' who was chosen to run the Bank of Cuba? El Che. A doctor from Argentina. Do you think the international banking community was going to 'cooperate' and make sure all of economy in Cuba had the cash flow to reproduce a healthy credit flow economy? No. If you study how capitalism works it is all controlled by banks. If they refuse to help a government that the capitalist bankers do not want to be successful, the most probable outcome is going to be economic freefall.

The majority of the world follows economic models based on capitalist banks. They are internationalist. If they were not you would not have the economies you have today. In order for you to right the problems with a country that is not following a capitalist model? You would have to have sufficient nations creating new coalitions to bypass that blockage. Can you think of any that have been able to create a new system where you have at least half the nations of the world going for the alternative model? It does not exist.

Why? Because the purpose of capital is to be the ONLY model allowed to follow and allowed to survive as an economic system. But in the past there have been in human history other models. Not based on internationalist banking. I will get back to this point after you concede some points.

Puerto Rico has had incompetent leaders since the 1970s. Who are they? All Right wing conservative statehooders and status quo politicians. If you study Puerto Rican politics? The PNP was formed in 1968, because the only parties in existence before the PNP party were all some form of seeking an independent nation. Where nationalist and pro-independence or autonomous enhancing parties. There were none who advocated becoming a state. None. Why? Because Washington DC never wanted that to be the case. But you got Fidel on the loose, Communism is a threat to the order...of the capitalist model. Even though IMHO Castro did not go, Communist, until he realized DC was not going to support an independent Cuba. Castro being a nationalist at heart? Went for playing the US's enemies in the cold war against them so he could retain control of Cuba. The Cuban Missile Crisis was part of that.

Can't let Puerto Rico get another pro-nationalist Puerto Rican leader as they got in the 1930s with Don Pedro. So? Create a party that promised equal rights by integration into the USA. The referendum thing has been going in and out for decades. It has not had a clear majority for independence. But the statehood movement had been growing until recently. Now the independence faction who had been losing voters for a long time is actually picking up more voters by leaps and bounds. Who knows what the future holds there? If the US government does not resolve Puerto Rican issues soon in the next generation? There is a possibility of a break. If you study all the little nations that the USA has invaded to keep watch over the rest of the world? None have become states @XogGyux . None. Why? In fact Palau a tiny spot in the Pacific became independent in 1993. If you study that island the people wanted to break from the US government control. it was not working for them anymore. They voted and it was not in favor of remaining with the USA. But the USA did not like that vote. They needed the nation to keep a nuclear situation going there. So they threatened them and said we will not allow you decide what we can or can't do with that land. There was negotiation. You should read up on it XogGyux.

For me? They don't care about democracy Xog. Only their own interests. The same reason Guatemala's independence was not respected. United Fruit moved in and decided that rural peasants in Guatemala mostly from the Mayan Indian cultures of Central America, could not be trusted to vote the way the US government wanted it to go. United Fruit had a lot of influence in DC XogGyux. The blood bath they created for greed is a very shameful incident in Central American history.

I can keep going with the history of Central America, and put in videos. But my point is for you to realize? That independence for Latin America when you got European Empires and USA Empire fighting with superior economics, superior military and superior propaganda capabilities is part of the reason why people have to flee these countries Xog. Because despite all the issues, the dedication to keeping a democratic model is strong. Can it be corrupted? Certainly. It has gotten corrupted in the USA. The supposedly longest and stablest democracy of the representative kind in this part of the world.

In terms of work or starve. Do you think part of the problem is that Mexicans, Guatemalans, etc all with capitalist models of production get paid dismally low salaries? Is part of the reason they got to pack their bags and go? Yes or no? If it is yes? Then why not allow decent paying salaries? Because some powerful groups and banks profits will be affected. So who runs these societies? That allow the level of desperation to get that bad?

What purpose does it serve to remove Mayans from their farmlands, and train death squad dictators in the School of the Americas to install them to go and carry out their terror trainings on native people's? Have interventions to prevent the spread of communism. Because according to you? Communism is a dismal failure and not a threat of any kind to a capitalist model of economic prosperity? If it sucks? Let the fragile little tiny nations accused of it? Let them go and do their failed experiment. No loss there. They are not going to allow it because they lose money. Capitalism has to sell and has to expand in all nations. A monopoly of economic models. It has to be that way.

Guns back it up. Meanwhile it winds up forcing workers to accept bad conditions and no real development, tax base or anything else you need to make a go of it economically. You condemn them to a low wage type of debt and slavery that never ends.

Puerto Rico owes banks according to them? Some 100 Billion dollars. It only has about 3 milion people on it. Many retirees no longer working and students. So how many working full time adults to generate that kind of mammoth debt payment source? It is impossible. It is really about buying out a nation. Having control of it. Without a war. But through economic dependency. Forever. Even in slavery times Banks were the ones giving out loans to Southern slaveowners XogGyux, in order for the plantation owners to be able to BUY the slaves...to work their crops. Without those banks? Their economy would have tanked. And the banks would like a mortgage sell the same slave back to some other owner after they bankrupted some slave owner's farm or cotton gin, etc.

I think this myth that capitalism is a benevolent force or the only force in the world capable of generating wealth is a myth darling. What needs to happen is to go full force on democratizing the workplace. Making distribution of wealth based on membership in a cooperative form of work. Everyone allowed a vote, people working and generating wealth and then pooling it to cover the people who are disabled, unable to work, retired and infirm or too young and still in K-12. Many models do exist that actually work out there XogGyux. They just are not allowed to be explored because the Capitalist group is extremely powerful and are behind arms dealing, wars and investment in fossil fuels and all the rest. They will fight actively to keep the progress in economic models from even being tried. I say if the capitalist system is the best game in town for all eternity? Then let it stop trying to repress the groups that might want to vote in a different model and don't try to actively block them. The embargo in Cuba is damaging. It is out there. But the Cubans have adapted to being denied a way of making a living that PROGRESSES the society. Lift the embargo and let the Cuban government fight it out with the Cubans who want a small business. International currency banks....and all the rest.

The US government does business with the PRC. Run by the Chinese Communist Party. Their economic model is state capitalism. But the US doesn't care....it does business with them. Vietnam is a socialist republic. They even went to war against Vietnam. Yet Cuba is a bigger enemy than either the PRC and Vietnam? Why? Is it because it has a failed economic system that poses no threat to the US's hegemony? Or is it because the USA gov't can not allow even one of the Banana Republic Latin American nations survive their control. I happen to believe they can't allow Cuba to not be intervened and controlled by them. It sets a bad example to the rest of the nations in their supposed backyard. A nation that full of control needs? Can it be trusted to do what is fair with supposefly independent and sovereign nations that long ago followed their Declaration of Independence from European Colonial powers, and led the rebellion to be true to a system of government that said was for the people or by the people only?

The truth that the US government has become the government of by the bank lobby and for the bank bailouts and bank cartels and by the Koch brothers and for the Koch brothers, and by the fascist element for the fascist element. They forgot about what the principles were long ago.

And internal contradictions in Empires throughout human history XogGyux? Always wind up failing. Why? You need to find where the crack in the foundation is and fix it in time? Because if you don't? Some other ambitious nation who stole all your plays from your imperial playbook? Will replace you. It is ironic that the nation the US fears the most in losing power and economic might to? Has the label of Communist Party in it. The model that sucks and should not be the model. It is a failure. The Chinese are imitating the plays of the USA. They are building little satellite islands from scratch to be able to place military bases there. Developing ports, and doing economic deals with many nations. Including Latin American ones and in Africa. What for? To expand. And profit. But the idea is to not allow the banks to dictate the terms. But the PRC government.

There are limits to greed. Will the Chinese be better? Many think they won't. But one thing is certain. Both nations the USA and the PRC have feet of clay. They better clean up their act or perish in the fires of human history. Better start serving humanity first. Not greed. Greed leads to nowhere but death and destruction.

Democratize the workplace and allow the small nations without an ax to grind space to work out their own plans. The interventions never are going to work XogGyux. Control from afar was tried in the Americas from Europe from 1493 onwards for centuries. And all it did was get rebellion and loss of the old colonies. Did people wake up to the fact? Get some independence. Or lose control to the people who don't care about democracy. Only their own pockets and the elite of the old and rotten systems of monarchy and inherited privileges so incredibly rejected by the USA and many of its Latin American republics. Be true to that history. Expand democracy to workplaces. Don't let the banksters decide the fate of human beings forever eh? They are not a human mentality. Lol. They never were. It is about greed with them. And greed aint good.

[QatzelOk]

Your game is over. You are not convincing anybody...

Let me try to convince you with a game:

"Once NATO gets rid of Saddam's WMDs, neutralizes the 911-Afghans who brought down the world trade center, and liberates the Libyan students so they can create a liberal democracy, we can stop the genocide in Yugoslavia by creating a new country on top of its coal deposits."

"Joe Biden is quite the speaker, with a razor-sharp mind and strong ideational disposition."

"Blowing up infrastructure in Russia will stop wars and terrorism from happening."

And here's the main game:

The Western bankster empires almost took over the entire world (their super-fun game of RISK), though many nations had to be exterminated in the process - as well as the earth's ecosystems and many vital species. But now, these rich, loot-stuffed countries are populated by dumbed-down morons, and ruled over by increasingly desperate organized-crime syndicates (like the neo-cons).

Unless Western nations bring down their own governments (which are run by spoiled and bored brats and their hired puppets), we will soon all be living in Haiti (rather than Cuba).

This is why I think the understanding of the Cuban governance system and worldview are so important.

[XogGyux]

@Tainari88
Watch this and tell me you think Cuba is working... watch this and tell me they are better off right now that what they would be. Tell me they are better off than Puerto rico because cubans are independent.

This is a country that has collapsed completely. They have sewage water on the streets of its capital. Their buildings are crumbling... but did you notice a feature? All doors and windows have metal bars and fences. You know why? Because of crime, thieves. This is such a safe place.... that people put bars in their houses to make them little prisons to protect themselves and their stuff from other desperate cubans that want to steal it. Tell me... did you spot anything inside these people's houses that you think would be worth stealing? Do you think putting a fence or a metal cage outside of your doors and windows is cheap? Their houses are literally falling... they have to poop on a bucket and the entrance of their house is just outside a sewage... they have a 20" cathode tv from the 90's and they have to protect it with a foking metal fence because there is going to be someone else that would otherwise steal it. Do you seriously think this is a way to live? That is why people leave. See the musician how he jokingly says "Who left? no.. ask who stays!" or at the end when the lady says something along the lines "Everyone wants to marry a tourist, one day there won't be any women for cuban males" then she explains "tourists have the money" and then asks (jokingly... I guess) "would you marry me?" You think this is right? Women basically prostituting themselves to flee their country?
Spare me the nonsense about imperialism... if the alternative is Cuba, I'll take it.

[Tainari88]

@Tainari88
Watch this and tell me you think Cuba is working... watch this and tell me they are better off right now that what they would be. Tell me they are better off than Puerto rico because cubans are independent.

This is a country that has collapsed completely. They have sewage water on the streets of its capital. Their buildings are crumbling... but did you notice a feature? All doors and windows have metal bars and fences. You know why? Because of crime, thieves. This is such a safe place.... that people put bars in their houses to make them little prisons to protect themselves and their stuff from other desperate cubans that want to steal it. Tell me... did you spot anything inside these people's houses that you think would be worth stealing? Do you think putting a fence or a metal cage outside of your doors and windows is cheap? Their houses are literally falling... they have to poop on a bucket and the entrance of their house is just outside a sewage... they have a 20" cathode tv from the 90's and they have to protect it with a foking metal fence because there is going to be someone else that would otherwise steal it. Do you seriously think this is a way to live? That is why people leave. See the musician how he jokingly says "Who left? no.. ask who stays!" or at the end when the lady says something along the lines "Everyone wants to marry a tourist, one day there won't be any women for cuban males" then she explains "tourists have the money" and then asks (jokingly... I guess) "would you marry me?" You think this is right? Women basically prostituting themselves to flee their country?
Spare me the nonsense about imperialism... if the alternative is Cuba, I'll take it.

Everything you mentioned happens in Puerto Rico of 2022. Everything XogGyux. Crime out of control, no clean water, sewage in the streets, blackouts, dysfunctional everything, corrupt government, crumbling homes. Everything falling apart.

The difference is the USA promised us a good society and a good life. The only thing they did was a huge diaspora. By becoming the USA's colony forever Cuba would not have come out winning. They had the opportunity to make the Phillipines a great society if they thought that colonialism means progress and prosperity. it did not mean that. They got rid of the Phillipines in 1946. Abandoned them to Japanese Imperialism and horrors. Study what happened there Xog. PR has been fighting wars and losing men in those wars since WWI. The veterans still don't get the same benefits if they stay in PR. The land of Puerto Rico is being poisoned. My mother died from the poison done by them. They don't want to clean it up.

The reality is what would have Cuba gained by being a plaything of the USA. We are the plaything and we can't even vote for local reps XogGyux. We are run by a bank panel that is unelected. Can't declare bankruptcy. Thurmond in the eighties made it impossible for us to do that. No power, no ability to control even local things.

I think it is time to realize the capitalism that is set up for Latin America by the multinational corporations is not good or even functional XogGyux.

I understand that your family wanted something better. And as doctors and educated people were able to make things happen for you in a new nation. I am glad for you. But Puerto Rico is completely controlled by the USA and the reality is that it is a dysfunctional society. So Cuba would not have come out well darling. Even if the Bay of Pigs would have been successful and you would have gotten rid of all traces of the Revolution. The mafia would have continued to control the island, the rural people would have been neglected and like other nations in the Caribbean controlled from afar in history? The scene would not have favored the Cubans.

Only when everyone starts thinking about cooperating and eliminating the idea of abuse of power from DC, and other nations into imperialism I fight, and when all those embargos are lifted and there is real trust and a real caring of respecting the social contract with many nations working together without greed and control issues involved? Then it will work finally. If there is greed, selfishness, and power play shit and I must control from afar or destroy the nation I can't control? There won't be real change. Only problems.

I never thought having every Boricua pack bags and leave and leaving the island to outsiders and giving up your land is a solution. Look at Israel. After the WWII horrors happened, they realized, you need a land base. If you don't have one? And everyone doesn't let you into their land? You are vulnerable.

Independence, and then real equality is what will work. Nothing less than that. No abusing power. Universal human rights. None of this selfish stuff is every going to work over the long haul. It won't work ever.

[QatzelOk]

Everything you mentioned happens in Puerto Rico of 2022. Everything XogGyux. Crime out of control, no clean water, sewage in the streets, blackouts, dysfunctional everything, corrupt government, crumbling homes. Everything falling apart.

Yes, but he is comparing Cuba to Martha's Vinyard, not real Caribbean places with similar economic conditions as Cuba.

Because XogGyux seems to desire USA-NATO interference in Cuban politics, the best comparison is Cuba versus Haiti. Haiti is "a success story" in that the XogGyuxes have gotten every invasion they wished for.

As XogGyux wishes, Cuba has a rich, Westernized leader who likes fast cars and expensive watches.

Mind you, he might get killed by someone in the next weeks, what with the 80% poverty rate, lack of clean drinking water, malnutrition, non-stop gang violence, and burning tires all over the place.

This is the kind of FREEDOM that rich people often think "works." They think this as they sip organic herb tea in Martha's Vinyard.

[XogGyux]

Cuba is a failure.
Watch a cuban explain it:

A tropical island where they cannot get fruits.
An island where they cannot get fish
An island that was famous for cane sugar... and the population cannot get sugar.
Watch her walk through the capital city, Havana. Watch the sewers on the street and the buildings in rumbles.
But notice something interesting, all windows and doors have metal fencing... do you honestly think with the scarcity of material, with the state of poverty in this country, they are putting those fences there for esthetics reasons? No... they are putting them because of crime. Crime is rampant in cuba, unlike what @QatzelOk would want you to think. The metal fences are there to create a tiny little prison for the inhabitants of the house to protect them from the criminals that would steal their crap. Cuba has bulglers like any other country, they have murderers like any other country. A neighbor of mine was once found murdered... we never found what happened. The only difference, this does not make it to the propaganda.... the news dont report the crime.
Cuba is only welcoming to tourists, because they bring money. Thats all. Cuba is a hostile environment for cubans, and that is why they leave cuba the moment they get a chance. It is a failure.
The streets that are clean and well maintained, are the ones near hotels... the ones tourists are going to see. This is what you like @QatzelOk ? 2 class citizens? The rich (the tourist) gets the nice pretty hotels and streets, and the pleb... the cuban gets the sewer and trash?

[Tainari88]

Cuba is a failure.
Watch a cuban explain it:

A tropical island where they cannot get fruits.
An island where they cannot get fish
An island that was famous for cane sugar... and the population cannot get sugar.
Watch her walk through the capital city, Havana. Watch the sewers on the street and the buildings in rumbles.
But notice something interesting, all windows and doors have metal fencing... do you honestly think with the scarcity of material, with the state of poverty in this country, they are putting those fences there for esthetics reasons? No... they are putting them because of crime. Crime is rampant in cuba, unlike what @QatzelOk would want you to think. The metal fences are there to create a tiny little prison for the inhabitants of the house to protect them from the criminals that would steal their crap. Cuba has bulglers like any other country, they have murderers like any other country. A neighbor of mine was once found murdered... we never found what happened. The only difference, this does not make it to the propaganda.... the news dont report the crime.
Cuba is only welcoming to tourists, because they bring money. Thats all. Cuba is a hostile environment for cubans, and that is why they leave cuba the moment they get a chance. It is a failure.
The streets that are clean and well maintained, are the ones near hotels... the ones tourists are going to see. This is what you like @QatzelOk ? 2 class citizens? The rich (the tourist) gets the nice pretty hotels and streets, and the pleb... the cuban gets the sewer and trash?

@XogGyux I think we are talking past each other. Let us do a summary of where we agree?

I agree that the society is dysfunctional. But my point is that Puerto Rico is also dysfunctional. Why do I point this out? Because both Puerto Rico and Cuba are Caribbean islands who took very different political historical and socioeconomic paths. Cuba had a revolution and became independent politically but was not able to pull away economically from the US interventions. Puerto Rico was invaded and taken over by the USA. But not given rights because the US congress made it a US territory without consulting the Puerto Ricans at all. No consultation. The Spanish never consulted the Puerto Ricans either.

Now, there is fencing everywhere in PR because the crime is incredibly high. So is drug addiction, poverty and alcoholism. There are six million Puerto Ricans who packed their bags and fled Puerto Rico. Six million. 3.2 million remain on the island. If it is the showcase of the USA colony in the Caribbean to highlight how well the USA runs things in PR, then why do so many of us had to leave PR to get another type of lifestyle?

If becoming a state meant Puerto Ricans being a successful socioeconomic group in the USA? We are not successful XogGyux. We have a lot of bad stats. The USA taking over did not spell prosperity and success for us. If you are a racist you say it is because we are an inferior race. You don't look for scientific and logical aspects of why people remain in poverty and without much control over their own society. I am not a racist. So I look for other factors.

Now, Cuba has been isolated Xog. No one can deny that the embargo exists. The USA has normal trade relationships with communist label type of nations. PRC, Vietnam, etc. But not Cuba. Why? The old excuse was Castro was alive. The dude is dead. His brother is old too and will soon be dead as well. What it the new excuse for keeping Cuba isolated? It is about control. Because the former USSR is dead too. Only a fascist far Right Putin remains. And he is losing a ground war. So? Why the stubbornness with Cuba? Just destroy that government and do the same to Cuba that they did to Puerto Rico. Right? Puerto Rico is dysfunctional. It does not work.

The only people who are going to do well in Puerto Rico under the current system are going to be USA bankers, crypto tax dodgers and drug dealers. It is going to be a huge ghetto with 100 billion dollars worth of debt. And it is by far the poorest spot in the USA union of territories. If they make it a state they will have to make US Virgin ISlands a state, Guam, and others. They won't do that. If they make it a state it will be a Spanish speaking state that needs a 100 Billion dollars bailout.

Let us be realistic here. Cuba needs to change. I agree. But does it need to give up its sovereignty to banks and crypto people in full capitalist mode like Puerto Rico?

I think Cuba needs to be allowed to trade with the entire world. Have a currency that is accepted. Get huge infrastructure investments. Avoid debt from predatory banks and modernize. But so does all the rest of Latin America and the Caribbean. But it requires respecting control belonging to the Cubans ONLY. Not the USA. The USA wants to control and dictate from afar. Just like Spain did for centuries in our history.

It is time to stop the interventions and stop the lack of resources. Cubans deserve better. So do Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Hondurans, Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, Panamanians, Colombians, Venezuelans, and many more. We want better. We want decent wages, decent lives. And there is no reason we should not be allowed to do that. But it requires you accepting that the upper middle class lifestyles of the USA are out of reach for many Latin Americans for now XogGyux.

If every Latin American packed their bags and left for Florida with DeSantis? Would that be a solution? No. It would not be.

Look for realistic solutions. USA being the big Daddy making decisions from afar with their internal fascism problems and racist tendencies? Is not the solution. It will never be a solution Xog.

That is my point. No talking past each other darling. I hear you. I know you want better for Cuba. I want better for Puerto Rico.

I think we got great people. High quality human beings. But the circumstances have been very very tough.

[XogGyux]

@XogGyux I think we are talking past each other. Let us do a summary of where we agree?

I agree that the society is dysfunctional. But my point is that Puerto Rico is also dysfunctional.

This is the old "correlation does not equal causation scenario". Maybe Puerto Rico is not dysfunctional because it is a capitalistic system and Cuba is not dysfunctional because it is a "socialist" system (although I'd argue it is not socialist at all, honestly I believe it is state-capitalism but that's not the main issue right now).

Why do I point this out? Because both Puerto Rico and Cuba are Caribbean islands who took very different political historical and socioeconomic paths. Cuba had a revolution and became independent politically but was not able to pull away economically from the US interventions. Puerto Rico was invaded and taken over by the USA. But not given rights because the US congress made it a US territory without consulting the Puerto Ricans at all. No consultation. The Spanish never consulted the Puerto Ricans either.

So despite taking both different paths they are at the same point?
I disagree with you on this. Granted I don't know enough about PR, but I do know they have more freedom than Cubans. PRs can travel anywhere, PR can create their own businesses, PR can go to the street wearing a t-shirt that says "I think Biden is homosexual".

Now, there is fencing everywhere in PR because the crime is incredibly high. So is drug addiction, poverty and alcoholism.

So is in Cuba... So clearly, Cuban's "socialism" did not help with that.

There are six million Puerto Ricans who packed their bags and fled Puerto Rico.

Again, same with cuba. 2millions. And the number would be much larger if it was easy to get out... as it is for PR. As a puertorican, you have access to one of the most valuable passports in the world. That American passport is worth a lot. Puerto ricans need to work their assess off to buy a plane ticket to get out of the islands... Cubans cannot even do that, they need to risk their lives on a makeshift boat or go to another lantin-american country under false pretenses (medical mission), illegally breach their visa stipulations and cross the border... all illegally... always risking deportation, and the consequences of that.

If becoming a state meant Puerto Ricans being a successful socioeconomic group in the USA? We are not successful XogGyux.

I don't have a strong opinion on the matter, I am not puertorican, my opinion just that. IMO, I think you guys are better off being a state... but you guys must actually want it and work for it... none of that 49%/51% bullshit... nobody will take you seriously that you want to join if it is not overwhelming. Look at the nonsense that is going on with bretxit... these sort of close-call margins are not helping your cause.
This is not going to be easy going through congress with how split rep/dems are, however, it is not feasible at all if PR itself appears as undecided/divided on this. It is harder to push senators and representatives if you come saying "90% of Puerto Ricans.... American citizens, want this... why are you opposing them to become a state and have the same rights as other states" than if the support for statehood is close to a coin-flip percentage.

The USA taking over did not spell prosperity and success for us. If you are a racist you say it is because we are an inferior race. You don't look for scientific and logical aspects of why people remain in poverty and without much control over their own society. I am not a racist. So I look for other factors.

There are obvious factors. For one, you are an island... that is economically challenging already just because of that.

Now, Cuba has been isolated Xog. No one can deny that the embargo exists. The USA has normal trade relationships with communist label type of nations. PRC, Vietnam, etc. But not Cuba. Why? The old excuse was Castro was alive. The dude is dead. His brother is old too and will soon be dead as well. What it the new excuse for keeping Cuba isolated? It is about control. Because the former USSR is dead too. Only a fascist far Right Putin remains. And he is losing a ground war. So? Why the stubbornness with Cuba? Just destroy that government and do the same to Cuba that they did to Puerto Rico. Right? Puerto Rico is dysfunctional. It does not work.

Look, I agree with you, I think the embargo is stupid. I think it is giving the regime an excuse. But I promess you, the embargo is not the reason Cuba is a failed state. Cuba is a failed state because of its regime. The embargo does not explain why the cuban goverment mistreats its people. In cuba, being cuban is being a second class citizen. A tourist gets preferential treatment, the tourists gets to do almost anything they want, the cuban no.
The reforms of the last few years have been moving in the positive direction, honestly if Trump had not been elected, we could have seen a nice transition during the Obama -> Clinton and softening of the situation. But for decades it was illegal for a cuban to enter a cuban hotel... how did the embargo cause that? It did not, the opressive cuban goverment took those actions to segregate the tourist and cuban populations... for many decades it was illegal in cuba to slaugther your own cow or to sell beef... not because cows were sacred... not because cubans had a high sense of animal warfare in mind... but rather because the goverment said so... stupid fidel came up with a brilliant plan to decimate the meat-producing livestock because he had envisioned a milk/meat dual-purpose livestock and tried to replace one type of livestock for the other... except the milk-producing kind likes more temperate climate and didn't do well... Fidel's stupidity ruined the industry. This is what happens with dictators, they think they are smarter than the experts. Not unlike Trump ignoring his advisers, or Putin... These people all share the same psyche, they live in their stupid heads, they don't listen to advise, or worse, sometime they actively punish those people that give advise other than what they want to hear.

Let us be realistic here. Cuba needs to change. I agree. But does it need to give up its sovereignty to banks and crypto people in full capitalist mode like Puerto Rico?

Who said anything about losing its sovereignty?
I am very skeptic of those people that think the US is out to get more territory. The US does muscle its way into getting good deals and/or getting away with shit that most other countries could not... That is what "top dogs" usually end up doing. Britain did it when they were the super power, France did it when it was then, Rome did it when it was then, and so forth.
The strong using their strength to get favorable deals and/or policies in their favor? Yes... China is doing it right now, and if the US didnt exist China would be the global top dog and believe me, if you think the US is bad... you don't want to see what china would do with the world. I also wish the world was filled with rainbows and unicorns but let's be a bit pragmatic here. None of the alternatives come even remotely close to. With all its defects and shortcomings, the US is superior to the other alternatives in the world, by a wide margin.

I think Cuba needs to be allowed to trade with the entire world.

I agree, but I promess you, that won't solve its issues. For one, Cuba ruined most/all industries it once had, they truly have very little left.

Have a currency that is accepted.

Funyy you should mention that. When I left Cuba, they had 4 currencies circulating in the island. Cuban pesos, CUC, Dollars and Euros. Apparently now they got rid of the CUC and have something called MLC. So in the last 20 or so years they have had 5 currecies... that was not the embargo that did that? The goverment did that, because they are trying to see how they can force their population into fishing actual currencies.

Get huge infrastructure investments.

You want foreign capital to invest in cuba? You forgot how all of this started? How cuba pretty much nationalized everything that was foreign owed? You want to re-live history?

The USA wants to control and dictate from afar.

And so does Cuba. Only difference, the US has the economy and army to get away with it. Make no mistake, this is the way the world has always worked, and the way the world will continue to work.
The earth, does not get to dictate the movement of the sun. The sun does get to dictate the movement of the earth.
Latin america could have united decades ago and make a super power. Except for Brazil, and a few caribbean islands speak spanish, they share similar history, religion, etc. Why havent they? Why havent they banded together and reached agreements to help each other prosper?. exactly.

It is time to stop the interventions and stop the lack of resources.

It won't happen @Tainari88 , it simply won't. Be realistic. It has never happened before, it won't happen for a long time. The best we can hope for is that the guy giving the orders is not a lunatic.

Cubans deserve better.

Do they? They supported their goverment and they have not overthrown their goverment. In fact, most cubans that disagree often time keep their head down with the hopes of eventually getting out of there... like me. I lost my right to tell other cubans what to do with their country, it is not mine anymore, I did not fight for it, I gave it away. I don't care, I am not sentimental in that fashion. Cuba is just a collection of rocks in the middle of the sea, it does not have any more value than land in florida or alabama or africa to me. I feel pity for the people that stayed behind because I walked their shoes, and I know what it is. I am outrage when I see fools such as @QatzelOk that know little about the country praise their leadership corruption, their inssuferable system, their broken country.

If every Latin American packed their bags and left for Florida with DeSantis? Would that be a solution? No. It would not be.

Look, there is plenty the US can do to help other countries. I personally think it is good politics to invest in your neightboors. I think if the Iphone factory was in ecuador instead of china, we would see far less ecuatorian migrants trying to cross the border, I think we would spend less money on shipping from half around the world, I think we would have better relationships with ecuador and other latin american countries that would also benefit (e.g. middle man, transport, etc) and we would have slightly richer neightboors (ecuatorians) that would then in turn buy other products from us. I think it is good policy, but I don't think it is the duty of the US to look up for the well being of other countries, that is up to those countries leaders. It is not up to the US to feed the venezuelans... it is up to the venezuelan goverment.
Look what this idiot chavez did to his country... The US is willing to negociate with murders in the middle east but Chavez was able to spook the crap out of the US... How did he even manage such a feat?

That is my point. No talking past each other darling. I hear you. I know you want better for Cuba. I want better for Puerto Rico.

I don't particularly like a better Cuba. Like I said, Cuba does not have a special place in my heart or any of that. Nowhere does. Land is land, I don't really care for it. Yes, I do generally want better for Cuba, in the same sense I want better for Peru and for Uganda, I want better for all the countries in the world. I want better for Ukraine as well. What I am, is realistic. We need to learn to love our parents with their imperfections... maybe mom is a bit histeric and dad drinks a bit too much, but they are mom and dad. Maybe the US mingles a little bit too much... but hey, I promess you, the US is better than the alternatives. The US is better than what the USSR was (don't believe me? see what russia is now doing in europe) and it is certainly better than China. @Tainari88 don't be naive, when the flame of light of the US fades... china will torch the planet.
Cuba was not ruined by the US... Cuba was ruined by Cubans.

[QatzelOk]

I do know they have more freedom than Cubans. PRs can travel anywhere, PR can create their own businesses, PR can go to the street wearing a t-shirt that says "I think Biden is homosexual".

Yes. And Haitians are also free do start their own businesses, go wherever they want, and to wear offensive t-shirts. Haiti already knows the freedomTM that you have to offer.

That American passport is worth a lot. Puerto ricans need to work their assess off to buy a plane ticket to get out of the islands... Cubans cannot even do that...

Yes, a huge advantage of letting the State Department control your government... is that you can leave it behind. Perhaps this could be extended to all of Latin America. "USA passports for all!" You are saying the advantage of being a USA friend is that you can then abandon your poor, poorly organized American gulag and go live in Kansas City's suburbs and work at a Walmart warehouse.

Look, I agree with you, I think the embargo is stupid. ...
Cuba was not ruined by the US... Cuba was ruined by Cubans.

But what role did the embargo you find stupid... play in the "fail?" Any ideas at all?

Because "blame the victim" isn't really logical. It's just lazy. And maybe... stupid. Like the embargo.

[Tainari88]

@XogGyux and @QatzelOk I had a very busy day at work today and had tons of stuff to do so I had not the time to answer both of you properly in this thread.

I will give some brief summaries for now but tomorrow I have more time. I will deal with that then.

As for Xog, the American passport comes with a very high price tag Xog. It means sending Puerto Rican men and women to war. Vietnam, Korea, WWI and WWII, and Iraq and Afghanistan and it means giving up enormous amounts of rights. You can't vote, you can't negotiate with other nations, you are subject to a form of tyranny for fifty years. The USA military had a dictatorship for fifty years. Not even local elections were allowed from 1898-1948. Thousands of Puerto Rican men were drafted and died in many wars for US interests without having a voice in any of the politics involved in those wars. There is also the reality of dealing with a lot of problems associated with colonialism without any independence for centuries by two nations. Spain and the USA.

Most of the rights enjoyed by you XogGyux that you like such as free speech, and free expression, labor rights, non discrimination rights, and so on were fought for by USA American socialists, and far leftists. The conservatives were happy with Jim Crow, no labor rights for Black people and Latinos, and there was a lot of racism which you still have to combat with the Republican party. The Left is always essential for individual liberties. The Anglo conservatives never fight for equality. They should but they don't. Only the Left worries about equality and individual rights for ethnic minorities in the USA. The sixties were a volatile time and many people such as MLK Jr, all lost their lives along with many others in the liberal column and in the socialist and commie column, including WEB DuBois one of the founders of the NAACP a communist and Angela Davis too. The far Left that is traditionally hated virulently by the far Right Cuban exile community is the reason why the USA had those kinds of liberties. Not the Right-wing. They suck in every nation with their fascism, racism shitty discrimination mentalities. They are responsible for a lot of problems. No matter where you go in the world. The right sucks with equality. Not their bag. Not their cup of tea.

In fact, they were ok with segregating people in Cuba, Puerto Rico and everywhere else they went. If you study Puerto Rican history the one in charge of Puerto Rico was a virulent Southern racist from a banker family who became Chief of Police Riggs. These are the reasons Puerto Ricans became US citizens. We paid a high price for that passport and it was to abandon a land we had tried to liberate for a very long time and finally had obtained it when the US came along and got rid of all that work. For what? To make money. From Wikipedia XogGyux:

Historical context

The first American governor of Puerto Rico resigned to become Puerto Rico's first sugar baron
After four hundred years of colonial domination under the Spanish Empire, Puerto Rico finally received its sovereignty in 1898 through a Carta de Autonomía (Charter of Autonomy). This Charter of Autonomy was signed by Spanish Prime Minister Práxedes Mateo Sagasta and ratified by the Spanish Cortes.[3] Despite this, just a few months later, the United States claimed ownership of the island as part of the Treaty of Paris which concluded the Spanish–American War.

Opponents to the colonial government argued that the profits generated by this arrangement were one-sided, enormous for the United States.[citation needed]

When the war ended, U.S. President McKinley appointed Charles Herbert Allen as the first civilian governor of Puerto Rico. Though Allen had a business background, his financial administration of Puerto Rico was strikingly unsound. He ignored the appropriation requests of the Puerto Rican House of Delegates, refused to make any municipal, agricultural or small business loans, built roads at double the costs of preceding administrations, and left 85% of the school-age population without schools. Rather than making these requested infrastructure and education investments, Allen's budget raided the Puerto Rican treasury. His administration re-directed tax revenues to no-bid contracts for U.S. businessmen, railroad subsidies for U.S.-owned sugar plantations, and high salaries for U.S. bureaucrats in the island government.[4][5]

Allen's financial acumen improved considerably when he returned to the U.S., and resumed his own personal business interests. In 1901, Allen resigned as governor and installed himself as president of the largest sugar-refining company in the world, the American Sugar Refining Company. This company was later renamed as the Domino Sugar company. In effect, Charles Allen leveraged his governorship of Puerto Rico into a controlling interest over the entire Puerto Rican economy.[6]

In 1914, the Puerto Rican House of Delegates voted unanimously for independence from the United States. In 1917, the US Congress passed an act by which it granted citizenship to Puerto Rican residents. This was overwhelmingly opposed by the island's political leaders. Critics said the US was simply interested in increasing the size of its conscription pool to get soldiers for World War I.[7]




Nothing is free in this world Xog. Nothing. Everything comes with a price tag. Cuba had lost a lot of people in trying to get its independence. They would not be as easy to dominate as Puerto Rico was. We were a lot smaller and in a different historical position than Cuba was XogGyux. Small and unable to hold on to the independence.

Never trust how big nations that are Empires treat the smallest ones out there. Because it will let you know that if Cuba had remained in their sphere of influence they would not be much better off. Everything in life is about a series of trade offs. You die in their imperial wars and go and live in the cold in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, etc. and in Florida? You might get a vote. Lol. No, Xog, nothing in life is about freebies. Everyone pays for something and the price is something very important. That is human history.

I don't think the Puerto Ricans on the island were ever given a choice. The same department that rules Indian reservations rules Puerto Rico in the USA govt. That is the Department of the Interior. Those nations of the Indian groups and us are about taking over lands that were already occupied by other humans. But which the USA did not have a right to take without consent or negotiation. Since those lands were interested in having their own society and not being part of the American Manifest Destiny they were slated for destruction or assimilation. If you want Cubans to be wiped out culturally, linguistically, historically and be expulsed out of their ancient lands and hand over the whole of Cuba to people who want the best land without any Cubans ruling it? Be my guest. Make Cuba a land empty of Cubans, and people who no longer remember a damn thing about their own history, don't speak Spanish any longer and fall for all the bullshit the Racist White Supremacy Groups peddle as the American Dream. I don't see many Republicans in 2022 wanting statehood for Puerto Rico Xog. They want to never share power with any Latin American groups in the USA fabric. They want separation. They are not one or two percentage points Xog. They are almost half of the electorate.

It is cultural suicide. All for t shirts, and consumer lifestyles and higher wages. A better way of life eh?

It is not. One has to be brave enough to take control of your own society, be responsible for shaping it, and making the decisions.

Cuba limps along. But the option of improving her condition is still up to her. Why? Because that bloody war and Revolution forced her to be responsible. Whether good or bad. Cuba is still full of Cubans. Not a ghost nation gone into the end of time. Like the hundreds of Native American tribes that no longer exist and used to exist.

I am a cultural anthropologist Xog. Culture means something to me. Killing off a culture for money and lifestyle is not for me. It never was.

But, at the same time, Cuba needs to change. Not letting young people practice a beloved profession with dignity and with the normal desires people have for a home to call their own, travel, and some creature comforts is something all Latin American nations should aspire to provide for all their people. No one wants to live in poverty, in desperate circumstances, unable to feed their kids, or not provide at least a K-12 education for them.

Balance is a very important aspect of happiness. To have what is reasonable. For all. It can be done. But thinking our circumstances are our own fault? No, XogGyux. Cuba was exploited by Spain, then the Criollo elite in Cuba, and then the USA North American robber barons. It is time Cuba and the Cubans got real opportunities.

And I want the same for all of us Latin Americans. I truly do. I live among Mexicans, Cubans, Dominicans, Chileans, and many other Latin Americans who live in this city. it is a fine mix. I want the best for all of us.

[SpecialOlympian]

First post: December 17th, 2017.

Technology and capitalism still rule the earth.

[Tainari88]

First post: December 17th, 2017.

Technology and capitalism still rule the earth.

And the Earth is not going well. Drought, storms and superstorms, and things like a huge garbage patch the size of Texas and growing, exponential death of whole species.

Elon Musk wants to make electric cars and you need a lot of Lithium which Bolivia and Mexico and other nations in Latin America has in abundance, and they want control of the resources in Latin America again. For cheap.

When will capitalism and technology learn to stop the one way street power plays?

When are you going to visit me Special O? The pandemic is almost over. Flee the RVP illness and come and relax.

[Potemkin]

And the Earth is not going well. Drought, storms and superstorms, and things like a huge garbage patch the size of Texas and growing, exponential death of whole species.

Elon Musk wants to make electric cars and you need a lot of Lithium which Bolivia and Mexico and other nations in Latin America has in abundance, and they want control of the resources in Latin America again. For cheap.

When will capitalism and technology learn to stop the one way street power plays?

“We will coup whoever we want! Deal with it.” - Elon Musk

[SpecialOlympian]

Species are replaceable and we can have them as pets. Profit motive will incentivize mankind to continue surviving, only because no proft gain can be had from a species wide extinction event.

Relax, calm down. We live in an efficient worldwide marketplace of solutions where buyers and sellers of ideas come together to create a better future for humanity.

[SpecialOlympian]

Also I don't know how much this has penetrated out into the non-English speaking world but Elon is basically power fucking Twitter into the ground harder and harder every day, I don't think there will be any illusions that being rich makes you smart going forward becuase Elon is posting through it on Twitter so you can see his mental breakdown in real time.

[Potemkin]

Also I don't know how much this has penetrated out into the non-English speaking world but Elon is basically power fucking Twitter into the ground harder and harder every day, I don't think there will be any illusions that being rich makes you smart going forward becuase Elon is posting through it on Twitter so you can see his mental breakdown in real time.

Watching Elon Musk slowly self-destruct is awesome to behold. Some day, generations yet unborn shall speak of this to their grandchildren in hushed, awed whispers.