[Tainari88]

Appropos of not much, I would love to go to Cuba. The food, the music, the people, the old cars, the warm water, sounds fantastic.

I meet Cubans all the time in this part of Mexico. Mérida is very close to Havana. They live here and save money and buy things and go back and forth to Cuba all the time.

Mexico and Cuba have always been close in relationship.

I am sure many people would love to travel there and get to spend time in those beaches. That island is the biggest in all of the Caribbean. And has a lot of interesting land to visit. But, unless they have investments to deal with the deterioration of buildings and so on and get the economy going sufficiently to get the young to decide to stay? It is going to be a lot of leaving the island.

Mexican couples go on their honeymoon there in the thousands every year! My dentist went on her honeymoon there years ago.

The bands are fantastic. You find them playing Cuban music and being great everywhere here!

This band tours here all the time. Los Van Van:

You see those Mexican crowds dancing to those Cuban bands on Saturdays for hours and hours. It is all about drinking beers and eating tacos and then hitting that dance floor with the Cubans playing. It makes me smile.

[Tainari88]

Indeed, and there's also another reason why I can't buy a property: I'm on a H1B, as long as I don't have a Green Card there's always the chance that my immigration status can run out, and if it does I'd have a much harder time keeping up with the mortgage.

Thankfully, I should have the Green Card 1-2 years before I'm finished with the loan.



I am not in the financial sector. I don't think I would go into it either.

Given my current education, I could actually work in tech instead if I really wanted to get as rich as possible. It could perfectly be a smarter strategy, too. But, honestly, while I would obviously not mind making more I am fairly satisfied with what I currently make (although I don't have any kids).

Right now, I am a lot more concerned about getting rid of debt (credit card debt first, I had to live off it for some time while I was looking for jobs) and getting a Green Card. Only then I will be able to change jobs.

I may also just go back to school for a PhD, and indeed I spent a fair amount of money on MORE coursework after getting my degree to get ready for applying again (I say "again" because I applied after finishing these courses and got admitted to a couple of good schools, but the stipend was too low to be able to study and keep up with the student loan - and I would have had to go back to a student visa). I don't know if I will, though, since a PhD is a big, long project and the issues within academia make me doubt. If I did a PhD, I would do it for both intellectual enjoyment and, yes, also as an investment.



True, but I am currently in a long-term relationship with a Chilean girl. I don't need to get married to get a GC.



Believe it or not, Santiago is not all that affordable if you consider salaries back in Chile. Even worse, in some cases, a comparable unit in a comparable neighborhood would only be somewhat cheaper in Santiago than in Chicago (but still far cheaper than in San Francisco or New York), but Chicagoans make a lot more than Santiaguinos.



This is exactly the type of thing I feared if I stayed in Chile, and many Chileans are in that boat. I was also heading to that kind of arrangement.

I was only able to move out and live alone when I moved here, to the US. I might have done it in Chile, but I was in a long distance relationship and travel ate much of my budget to be able to. Plus the neighborhoods I could have moved to would have been worse than where I am now (with either a lot less amenities or way more dangerous).

Now, this is a problem even for Americans themselves. And it's also a problem in Europe, Canada, Australia, Japan, New Zealand and developed countries in general. One thing many Chileans don't realize is that some of the problems Chile and much of Latin America face are the same as in the developed countries, e.g. expensive real estate, expensive education and lower earnings for going to college than in the past, expensive healthcare, pension problems, etc. For much of Latin America (but not all of it), you can also add crime and a higher inequality to that mix, but in exchange you usually get better weather (better than Chicago's at least).

My unit wasn't furnished though. Everything except for the microwave oven, stove and fridge is mine.



Indeed, property taxes are very high. A LOT higher than in Chile and I assume than a lot higher than in Mexico too.

The upside (I'll put on my economist hat here) is that 1) they aren't that high to push people to sell, 2) it's hard to evade them, 3) they are progressive - wealthier people tend to pay higher taxes.



I would not say I am an assimilationist. I take what I like about American culture and reject what I don't like.

E.g. I make a conscious effort to reject the pathological obsession with race you see here, which I see as part of American culture (which is like the pathological obsession with social class in Latin America, I don't know if you perceive that in Mexico. I have a friend who lived in Mexico for several years and it's far worse than in Chile, where it's already bad). Not only because it's alien to me, but also for ideological reasons.

Other shit many Americans do that I will not be doing anytime soon: Go outside in pajamas (wtf), have a fur "baby" (I've seen people taking their dog in a baby trolley), etc. I may revise later when I think of other similar weird shit I've seen here.

One thing many Americans have done that I may do in the future, but haven't done yet: Learn to shoot a firearm (I don't need to own one, but it's not a bad idea to learn how to use them).

Of course, this is always subject to the maxim "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" when it comes to doing anything that may irk someone else. I think of this as a minimum courtesy to locals as a foreigner, and one reason why xenophobia against Venezuelans (specifically) has increased in Chile is that many don't respect Chilean customs in a way that is disruptive for others (e.g. some will party hard, until late at night, during the weekday - which is seen as extremely rude and annoying in Chile, and most Chileans avoid doing).

I read this and thought? Wat0n has a lot of challenges dealing with making money.

That entire student loan debt and not getting a green card yet is risky and not going to be free of stress Wat0n.

You can become a citizen of the US. Then get a remote job and get paid in US dollars but live in lower-cost Chile or another nation.

The reality is the younger generations of people are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I do not know if you think the Tech industry you are going to work for is going to pay you enough to knock out those student loans well? Fast? I do not know.

Too many people think living off of credit cards is something that will not be hard to get out of. The reality is that digging out of that hole is hard.

But you can do it.

I am very much all about being flexible and realistic.

It does not matter how many obstacles life might throw at you. The important thing is to have good habits. Good and clean thoughts, and good mindset and attitudes.

I try to teach my little boy that. Good habits, good attitude, and good thoughts are key to reaching life goals in life.

Cubans that I have met? Most of them I like deeply. Mostly because they are not arrogant people. They just are open about their problems. They do not fear being open about their problems. They also are people with zero alienation in their mentalities.

That is a big asset in a world where many spend most of their time on a computer and teens are taking all that social media shit seriously and feel stalked by these cyber characters online.

Fuck all that stuff. Live your life according to your own internal values and focus.

Are you intending to marry that Chilean girlfriend? Or are you not going to?

Llevas un buen rato con la muchacha.

Hmm, are you going to spend $50,000 on a wedding? JAJA.

I think I paid $40 dollars for my wedding dress. Lol. Hee hee.

[wat0n]

I read this and thought? Wat0n has a lot of challenges dealing with making money.

Not with making money (my salary is in line with what I could expect), but with keeping expenses in check.

Another thing I did not mention: My girlfriend is a student, so she's not working but hope she'll be able to work soon. I am basically earning for us both.

That entire student loan debt and not getting a green card yet is risky and not going to be free of stress Wat0n.

It isn't and never thought it would be - it's an investment, and like any investment, it carries risk.

El que no se arriesga no cruza el río.

You can become a citizen of the US. Then get a remote job and get paid in US dollars but live in lower-cost Chile or another nation.

It is an option, although it's kind of cheating. I mean, if you earn rich country wages and live in a poorer country you will of course have an easier time (financially).

The reality is the younger generations of people are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Indeed, and it's happening everywhere. Chile, the US, Mexico, Canada, Europe, Australia, China, Cuba, Venezuela, you name it - it's a global phenomenon.

I do not know if you think the Tech industry you are going to work for is going to pay you enough to knock out those student loans well? Fast? I do not know.

Too many people think living off of credit cards is something that will not be hard to get out of. The reality is that digging out of that hole is hard.

But you can do it.

I am pretty sure I can, one just needs to live frugally. And in our case, it will be a lot easier when my girlfriend gets her own job. Ultimately, the US is kind of set up for households to have 2+ providers.

I am very much all about being flexible and realistic.

It does not matter how many obstacles life might throw at you. The important thing is to have good habits. Good and clean thoughts, and good mindset and attitudes.

I try to teach my little boy that. Good habits, good attitude, and good thoughts are key to reaching life goals in life.

Cubans that I have met? Most of them I like deeply. Mostly because they are not arrogant people. They just are open about their problems. They do not fear being open about their problems. They also are people with zero alienation in their mentalities.

That is a big asset in a world where many spend most of their time on a computer and teens are taking all that social media shit seriously and feel stalked by these cyber characters online.

Fuck all that stuff. Live your life according to your own internal values and focus.

Indeed, and moving here actually just underscores this. You do need to learn to be both flexible and realistic when you emigrate.

Are you intending to marry that Chilean girlfriend? Or are you not going to?

Llevas un buen rato con la muchacha.

TBD.

In my defense, although we've been together for 4 years (we celebrated our anniversary yesterday), we had the pandemic in the middle, and spent it in different continents... Plus I think she has yet to be able to decides if she likes living here or not. I don't think you can truly decide if you like living in a foreign country if you haven't worked and experienced the work culture of wherever you're moving to. I think work culture is a big deal.

Hmm, are you going to spend $50,000 on a wedding? JAJA.

I think I paid $40 dollars for my wedding dress. Lol. Hee hee.

No way! It's becoming more common in my generation to scrap big weddings and do something else. Mainly, save for a house.

Some of my friends (who moved from Chile) just did it for immigration purposes ("we either get married or you'll need a visa to visit"). Others, as I said, only had a ceremony with their close families (no friends) to save money, even in Chile. My sister got married at her house, and just hired a catering service - and she earns a lot for Chilean standards.

I've noticed something similar among Americans. I know someone who got married at her in-laws' garage, and her mother-in-law lent her wedding dress for it. I heard from an acquaitance of someone who did his ceremony at the Wrigley Field, paid like $1,000 for seats for a cheap game and recovered everything with the wedding gifts.

I would probably have a small wedding in Chile, where it's cheaper (not by much though) and our families live. But for example she wants to bring her parents here if we get married here, even if it's just that short ceremony at the City Hall. Unfortunately, I would not be able to bring my own close family (my grandfather is 92 and we don't think he can fly) so to me the Chilean ceremony would be non-negotiable. She isn't keen on doing it over there because there are relatives of her she doesn't want to invite. I would probably do something like what my sister did.

[Tainari88]

@wat0n wrote:

It is an option, although it's kind of cheating. I mean, if you earn rich country wages and live in a poorer country you will of course have an easier time (financially).

How do you think rich countries get rich? By forcing the workers in rich countries to work longer and be two household income earners, deny child care and encourage work cultures all the time instead of a balanced life.

Work to work. Earn more. Get more consumer goods, etc. Once you make a lot, then make more, so you can get a vacation home, a third car, and keep going. Working all the time. Never be satisfied.

It is all a shit value system in my opinion.

Poor nations? Most poor people have pressures just feeding themselves and covering basic bills like transportation bus passes, food, electricity, water and basic household items like soap to wash your clothes, some Fabuloso cleaner and dental paste. That kind of stuff. They have zero left over for aspirations to greatness. What many poor people in Latin America do is constantly cooperate in family units. They have to. I got neighbors for example who bake. January they had the Reyes Roscas for January 6th. The neighbor is a baker and her partner who has a son my son's age and they are best friends, and she needed someone to give her a ride to deliver about 10 huge roscas to a small town nearby about half an hour drive from the city here...to sell the roscas. She had no funds to pay a private transportation system so she asked my husband to driver her to the small town of Molas. He took her there. The house was a mud hut with an outdoor kitchen and it was a very spare life. But she loved the help. If people cooperate they make it.

Poor people wind up asking favors from family and friends to make end's meet. It is tough but most have to always cooperate and they get used to that mode of dealing with problems. It is a strength of people forced to leave individualism behind in order to make their lives work.

The next day she brought me a Rosca. My son wound up eating it. Lol. So many things that are about how people organize their lives according to their circumstances.

It is not cheating to earn what you can. No one wants to be exploited and not be able to pay bills and reach goals because their wages are abysmally low. The ideal is to earn as much as you can earn and have the lowest possible cost of living.

It gives you more money to protect yourself from emergencies, and to knock off debt. To make plans and help family members in crisis. I had to forgive 'loans' people have asked me to give them countless times in the four years I have lived here. I never expect to get paid back with them. Lol. But, I say it is a loan so they do not keep coming back to ask for more loans when they know they still owe me from the last one. I see it as a gift. Really. But if you tell them it is a gift? They expect gifts all the time. All human psychology eh?

Cubans struggle a lot with Mexican capitalism. It is a lot of hard work and low pay and they rarely can make enough to get out of debt or cover expenses. Mexico is hard for many Cubans.

I have seen a good amount of improvements lately though. A good sign.

Sweating it out eh? Lol. With the girlfriend.

Wat0n once you are older in age? You do not value money all that much. I did not even value it when I was young. Or during my full time work years. I love what I do now. Part time meaningful work.

What I really value is having time for socializing, friends, community, and raising my son. In peace.

Time is the hard currency when one is hitting soon your late fifties and so on. The clock is ticking. Time is what is most precious.

When you are young? You need to trade your time for money so you can get security. But in reality I do not see much security. My parents in their era got scholarships and paid zero in tuition in all their universities. Zero payment from their pockets. Back then the UPR, SDSU and University of San Francisco were all freebies if you had perfect grades and academic excellence. Free. Not anymore. It is all loans, and debt. It was a deliberate shift away from the policies of the sixties, seventies and early eighties. Reagan started all that pay-to-attend stuff and privatizing higher education all the time.

I am always amazed at how individuals are against so many good-for-everyone common sense policies. When they should fight for justice on all fronts. Education, health care, housing, and finances, and just being pragmatic. How is society benefiting from homeless children or houses with no money for heat in Chicago winters? Or no access to health care and people running into the ER areas of public hospitals because they hold off on tooth infections and need preventive care due to fear of being charged money...it is crazy. Or seniors eating bad diets due to limited social security checks as their only incomes? It all is nonsensical on a real level.

Bad schools with poor education quality and frustration with that and then they turn to crime. Then you got to spend on prisons and prison guards and public defenders and locking people up and so on. It is stupid. Spend well on giving people a fighting chance in life from the beginning. Do not be cheap with what works in the long run. You invest in the prevention of illness and good habits. Not on when they have eaten junk food, become drug addicts, and are professional thieves because that is all they know and they have a record and no one wants to hire them anymore. Spend on productive things. But no....war, bombs, luxury houses no one can afford to buy because in order to get a college degree and be middle class you have to get into deep debt and be denied your own home until you are 45 years old and have to work for 30 years to pay it off at age 75. Estan locos.

Socialism works on many fronts. But the word is kryptonite for the Right Wing. Lol.

I am going to start saving for my younger son's wedding. I want a big fancy Mexican wedding. With a lot of live music and so on. Since I had a super cheapo one for my wedding. My mother told me she regretted that. Not having a big fancy wedding. I do it for her now eh? Lo que ella queria. Pero para mi hijo.

[wat0n]

@wat0n wrote:



How do you think rich countries get rich? By forcing the workers in rich countries to work longer and be two household income earners, deny child care and encourage work cultures all the time instead of a balanced life.

Work to work. Earn more. Get more consumer goods, etc. Once you make a lot, then make more, so you can get a vacation home, a third car, and keep going. Working all the time. Never be satisfied.

It is all a shit value system in my opinion.

Well, if anything I work less here than I used to back in Chile.

Poor nations? Most poor people have pressures just feeding themselves and covering basic bills like transportation bus passes, food, electricity, water and basic household items like soap to wash your clothes, some Fabuloso cleaner and dental paste. That kind of stuff. They have zero left over for aspirations to greatness. What many poor people in Latin America do is constantly cooperate in family units. They have to. I got neighbors for example who bake. January they had the Reyes Roscas for January 6th. The neighbor is a baker and her partner who has a son my son's age and they are best friends, and she needed someone to give her a ride to deliver about 10 huge roscas to a small town nearby about half an hour drive from the city here...to sell the roscas. She had no funds to pay a private transportation system so she asked my husband to driver her to the small town of Molas. He took her there. The house was a mud hut with an outdoor kitchen and it was a very spare life. But she loved the help. If people cooperate they make it.

Poor people wind up asking favors from family and friends to make end's meet. It is tough but most have to always cooperate and they get used to that mode of dealing with problems. It is a strength of people forced to leave individualism behind in order to make their lives work.

The next day she brought me a Rosca. My son wound up eating it. Lol. So many things that are about how people organize their lives according to their circumstances.

It depends, to be honest. But it is indeed true many poor people tend to rely on these collective schemes. Others just migrate. And yet others get into crime and less savory activities.

It is not cheating to earn what you can. No one wants to be exploited and not be able to pay bills and reach goals because their wages are abysmally low. The ideal is to earn as much as you can earn and have the lowest possible cost of living.

It's not cheating or illegitimate at all! But you can't make comparisons anymore, can you?

In particular, most people (for now, at least) can't work remotely for employers located abroad. As such, many workers simply don't have that option and that's why the comparison sucks.

It gives you more money to protect yourself from emergencies, and to knock off debt. To make plans and help family members in crisis. I had to forgive 'loans' people have asked me to give them countless times in the four years I have lived here. I never expect to get paid back with them. Lol. But, I say it is a loan so they do not keep coming back to ask for more loans when they know they still owe me from the last one. I see it as a gift. Really. But if you tell them it is a gift? They expect gifts all the time. All human psychology eh?

Right, and indeed it is wise to at least try living frugally. I am sometimes amazed at how much unnecessary expenses some Americans do. I am left thinking "why?".

Cubans struggle a lot with Mexican capitalism. It is a lot of hard work and low pay and they rarely can make enough to get out of debt or cover expenses. Mexico is hard for many Cubans.

I have seen a good amount of improvements lately though. A good sign.

Cubans have the same problem most immigrants eventually have, which is getting used to the new system. I have the same issue sometimes.

Sweating it out eh? Lol. With the girlfriend.

Wat0n once you are older in age? You do not value money all that much. I did not even value it when I was young. Or during my full time work years. I love what I do now. Part time meaningful work.

What I really value is having time for socializing, friends, community, and raising my son. In peace.

Time is the hard currency when one is hitting soon your late fifties and so on. The clock is ticking. Time is what is most precious.

Right, which is why this is the time to get everything set up. Get rid of debt, get married (?), plan for children (?), do a PhD (?) - all of these are things that need to be sorted out. Soon.

When you are young? You need to trade your time for money so you can get security. But in reality I do not see much security. My parents in their era got scholarships and paid zero in tuition in all their universities. Zero payment from their pockets. Back then the UPR, SDSU and University of San Francisco were all freebies if you had perfect grades and academic excellence. Free. Not anymore. It is all loans, and debt. It was a deliberate shift away from the policies of the sixties, seventies and early eighties. Reagan started all that pay-to-attend stuff and privatizing higher education all the time.

It depends, for instance, who were the students who were actually attending college back in the day? Part of the problem is that making college free often ends up benefiting upper and upper-middle classes for the most part. Yes, some poor and extremely talented students may indeed benefit too - but these are the exception. That's when means testing starts making sense, to make sure that benefit goes to who needs it most and not to who doesn't actually need it.

I am always amazed at how individuals are against so many good-for-everyone common sense policies. When they should fight for justice on all fronts. Education, health care, housing, and finances, and just being pragmatic. How is society benefiting from homeless children or houses with no money for heat in Chicago winters? Or no access to health care and people running into the ER areas of public hospitals because they hold off on tooth infections and need preventive care due to fear of being charged money...it is crazy. Or seniors eating bad diets due to limited social security checks as their only incomes? It all is nonsensical on a real level.

It depends on the issue. The American healthcare system for example is not well designed or organized, it's not even a system but actually 4 systems that live together and makes things more expensive than they should be.

Public schools are a different matter, it seems to me the issue there is mainly one of equity (at least here in the Chicago area, since schools are funded with property taxes richer districts will have more funding because they pay more taxes, with no solidarity between districts).

Housing is also another basket case, but it's a global phenomenon. Even China has issues with it. In the US and the West in general it has a lot to do with zoning and zoning itself cuts deeply into how we want our cities to look like. Do we want to live in more densely populated cities in exchange for cheaper housing? Is this good? The answer isn't obvious.

I think these things need to be seen in a case by case basis. That phrase that "devil is in the details" is specially true in healthcare and education.

Bad schools with poor education quality and frustration with that and then they turn to crime. Then you got to spend on prisons and prison guards and public defenders and locking people up and so on. It is stupid. Spend well on giving people a fighting chance in life from the beginning. Do not be cheap with what works in the long run. You invest in the prevention of illness and good habits. Not on when they have eaten junk food, become drug addicts, and are professional thieves because that is all they know and they have a record and no one wants to hire them anymore. Spend on productive things. But no....war, bombs, luxury houses no one can afford to buy because in order to get a college degree and be middle class you have to get into deep debt and be denied your own home until you are 45 years old and have to work for 30 years to pay it off at age 75. Estan locos.

Socialism works on many fronts. But the word is kryptonite for the Right Wing. Lol.

It's odd, I don't associate socialism - in practice - with long term planning. Even in the more rare cases where there was a real attempt to do so, plans were not necessarily good or able to adjust.

One good thing about capitalism is how flexible it is, as a system. Its decentralized nature makes adjusting to changes easier.

I am going to start saving for my younger son's wedding. I want a big fancy Mexican wedding. With a lot of live music and so on. Since I had a super cheapo one for my wedding. My mother told me she regretted that. Not having a big fancy wedding. I do it for her now eh? Lo que ella queria. Pero para mi hijo.

Mexican weddings are amazing, or the few memories of the one I went to were good. Much is hazy, I recall we drunk a lot.

[Tainari88]

@wat0n wrote:

It's odd, I don't associate socialism - in practice - with long term planning. Even in the more rare cases where there was a real attempt to do so, plans were not necessarily good or able to adjust.

One good thing about capitalism is how flexible it is, as a system. Its decentralized nature makes adjusting to changes easier.

Wat0n one has to deal with pragmatic socialism. Where does it need flexibility? Why is there a lack of productive value? What trips up a system and makes it dysfunctional? It is monopolizing the market too much? Is it having manufacturing be not local but being located very far and relying on complex supply chain issues? Is it doing it the wrong way. Capitalism has a very simplistic formula that keeps relying on profit motivations as the only real consideration to measure the success of an industry. Nothing else. It does not work for society in very vital areas. One of them is access to a decent education. If it becomes only the wealthy can get a good K-12 education and that is a pre-requisite to get into higher ed? It will make it that only the wealthy are getting access. Since the wealthy within a capitalist system are few? You have to know that educating only a few is not progress. It is not smart. It is not flexible and it is not productive in the least. It is the opposite. Keeping people without decent educations is designing a society with inequality baked into its very nature.

Same with health care. Housing can be fixed but it also requires socialist rules. For example, my husband and I bought our home way back in 1996 in Denver. After living in apartments that we rented out for nine years. Saving our money for a down payment. By then I was what? 29 years old. Ready to buy my first home. But the pricing was a bit high for us. Back then in the 1990s the city of Denver decided they had a lot of broken down old historic city center housing that was an eyesore. They needed some people to move in and fix it up and commit to making it better. So they came up with a plan to have qualified buyers not resell the home for six years and instead fix it up. They sold it as is and wanted the new owners to put in a down payment and live there and fix it up so the building would not deteriorate. Not make the city get worse looking. A socialist concept. You need people and you match them up with appropriate property. Once the people commit to fixing it up and pay on the improvements? Then they can resell it.

But, if housing is prohibitively expensive for most young couples like my husband and I were at the time? The young couples get nothing but debt and no real housing options--except renting apartments forever. Losing that money that could become a retirement option in the future. Puerto Rico did socialism right in its past too. You lived in government sponsored apartments for ten years and paid maintenance fees only and sliding scale charges or something like that. The place is yours after 10 years. You stabilize communities that way and avoid homelessness and destitution. You assess what is needed. You match up the available housing and resources with the people needing to be housed. I used to cope with housing programs for years. Tax credits, and many other commercial properties that nowadays are no longer being rented out.

You work in cooperation with need and what can be done with government tax dollar investments. You do the right formula and voila! You get results. What does not work Wat0n is reducing everything to GREED and profit motives. These faceless investors who do not take responsibility for the choices and bad practices that the corporation models in modern capitalism hide behind to just make money and not care about what is best for the entire human society. It is a bad system in that sense for sure capitalism. You have to realize corporations are not single individuals. They hold enormous power and sometimes more economic might than entire nations. How does it make sense to treat them like single, regular John Doe taxpayers? It does not make sense. It is just a scheme to not be responsible for exploitation of many groups of people in order to have higher quarterly profit reports.

All of the planning that goes into society has to assessed for effectivity. How effective is it for solving the goal aspired to? Why did it fail? How can it work? Then use the model that WORKS for that problem.

Profit only model does not work for education of all members of society. Profit only does not work for housing all people safely or creating stable communities. Health care has to be assessed for what works. if it is about greed only? Many people will fall through the cracks.

Got to assess risk of being attacked to see why a country spends on the military? Can it do a good job on a less expensive military?

Attacking and trying to control nations because you want to continue to be the only superpower in the world for all time? Not accepting the leaders who win democratic elections because you want only ONE MODEL to be the one in all 200 nations on Earth to adopt? Craziness. You should want diversity in models and have every kind of way of organizing human societies according to what works for their developmental capability and their ability to climb out of deprived circumstances. Most communities all over the world are very intelligent on what they need for their community.

If it is sanitation? They will tell you. If it is lighting and books in a public school system? They will tell you. If it is better roads? Bridges? Cleaner water systems? Higher wages? Access to vocational training? So many parts of the world are communicating what is needed. What prevents it all from happening? Mostly greed and mostly lack of political will. Greed and capitalism is a horrific premise that has to be overcome. Because it requires constant growth and consumption in a world with FINITE resources. There are limits. Once the market is saturated? Where do you go from there?

Allow differences in models without threats and war. Let peace happen. Cooperate with everyone and with a lot of good will. Not about exploiting and dominating to CONTROL and be powerful and make them suffer if they do not agree.

It is not hard to be civil. Humanize your enemy.

Like I have just done with you? It is not hard.

But it does require changing your attitude. See what I mean?

Open up Cuba and do it with love, with respect and mutual cooperative spirit. Before long? Things improve for everyone. The USA and Cuba. But nothing improves if it is about control and greed.

Fear only holds on to you for a little while. But no one can live with fear 24/7.

How long can people think about COVID 19 all the time forever? Being cooperate and pursuing what is best for society and not emphasizing greed and control is what the key to success is about when you are trying to meet human needs.

That is why I am a socialist. To each according to their ability and to each according to their need. You can't meet needs and develop human abilities if you only want profits and control of material gains and you make everything about owners and non owners.

But, I think the future is forcing the adoption of new models. Whether the ones who are into greed want to do that or not. Once it becomes about live or die? Humans usually choose live. We are motivated to live. But too much greed, pressure and control? That is when depression and lack of hope resides. Got to change that.

[QatzelOk]

Capitalism is drunk on power after having grabbed control of healthcare, education and housing in the USA a few other vassal countries

The American healthcare system for example is not well designed or organized, it's not even a system but actually 4 systems that live together and makes things more expensive than they should be.

Che Gueverra coined the term "revolutionary medicine" to capture the problems that letting capitalism into hospitals causes. Getting capitalism out of hospitals can only be accomplished through extreme social violence because capitalism uses violence to hang onto its many rackets and scams.

Public schools are a different matter, it seems to me the issue there is mainly one of equity (at least here in the Chicago area, since schools are funded with property taxes richer districts will have more funding because they pay more taxes, with no solidarity between districts).

Letting rich people (capitalism) control education means that it will no longer encourage free thought or critical thinking. Capitalism and its ideological programming, has dumbed down Americans to the point where they know how to do their jobs and drive their cars, and very little else (cooking, repairing things, engaging people in conversation...) Americans have learned that education is for people with money, rather than being for people with brains or ideas.

Housing is also another basket case...

Letting capitalism control our housing stock has lead us to homeless people shitting in city parks, young people putting off marriage, and the impoverishment of entire classes of working people. This total failure is due to "rentierism" being the easiest way to stay rich if you inherit money.

One good thing about capitalism is how flexible it is, as a system.

Yes, it can morph into fascism on a second's notice when it fails.


Fidel and Che enjoy a chuckle while reading wat0n's posts about the failures of mafia-run capitalism

[wat0n]

Che Gueverra coined the term "revolutionary medicine" to capture the problems that letting capitalism into hospitals causes. Getting capitalism out of hospitals can only be accomplished through extreme social violence because capitalism uses violence to hang onto its many rackets and scams.

Plenty of European have healthcare systems based on private insurers, and they work just fine.

It's just the US which has a poorly organized "system", if it can even be labeled a system.

Letting rich people (capitalism) control education means that it will no longer encourage free thought or critical thinking. Capitalism and its ideological programming, has dumbed down Americans to the point where they know how to do their jobs and drive their cars, and very little else (cooking, repairing things, engaging people in conversation...) Americans have learned that education is for people with money, rather than being for people with brains or ideas.

Funnily enough, that's exactly what the communist education systems aimed for. After all, you don't want people becoming too rebellious against the Party.

Letting capitalism control our housing stock has lead us to homeless people shitting in city parks, young people putting off marriage, and the impoverishment of entire classes of working people. This total failure is due to "rentierism" being the easiest way to stay rich if you inherit money.

Do you really want to discuss Cuban housing?

Yes, it can morph into fascism on a second's notice when it fails.


Fidel and Che enjoy a chuckle while reading wat0n's posts about the failures of mafia-run capitalism

Pinochet wasn't a fascist.

Fidel likely chuckled as he managed to oppress Cubans until his death. I doubt the Che was chuckling when he was captured by the Bolivians though.

[QatzelOk]

It's just the US which has a poorly organized "system", if it can even be labeled a system.

Yeah, American health care sucks, lol. So trivial an issue, isn't it. Health.

Do you really want to discuss Cuban housing?

Not really. I wanted to respond to your positive description of capitalism's housing strategies, by comparint it to Cuba's housing strategy.

In six visits to different parts of Cuba, I never saw anyone sleeping in tents or defecating on the streets. In USA cities (and in my own more and more) we are seeing people freezing to death in private tents under highways. No human shit smells in capitalist Montreal, so far...

Pinochet wasn't a fascist.

I think this comment could easily replace all your others in this thread, and this one, single comment would have as much impact as all the rest combined.

[wat0n]

Yeah, American health care sucks, lol. So trivial an issue, isn't it. Health.

I know logic isn't your strong suit, but if other countries do feature a role of private agents in their healthcare sector without having any major issues then maybe the issues with American healthcare are specific to it.

Not really. I wanted to respond to your positive description of capitalism's housing strategies, by comparint it to Cuba's housing strategy.

In six visits to different parts of Cuba, I never saw anyone sleeping in tents or defecating on the streets. In USA cities (and in my own more and more) we are seeing people freezing to death in private tents under highways. No human shit smells in capitalist Montreal, so far...

What state were those Cuban houses in?

Were they ran down or in good condition?

I think this comment could easily replace all your others in this thread, and this one, single comment would have as much impact as all the rest combined.

I am simply stating a fact. His ideology was not that of people like Mussolini or Franco, even if he was in good terms with the latter.

Pinochet didn't have a clear ideology beyond anti-communism. His dictatorship tried different approaches to economic policy and was not uniform in that regard.

[Tainari88]

@wat0n wrote:

Pinochet wasn't a fascist.

The response from me is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinochetism

Excerpt:
Pinochetism (Spanish: Pinochetismo) is an authoritarian and personalistic political ideology rooted in the military dictatorship led in Chile between 1973 and 1990 by Augusto Pinochet. Variously described as right-wing,[1] far-right,[2] and semi-fascist,[3] Pinochetism is characterised by its anti-communism,[4] conservatism,[5] militarism,[6] and nationalism.[7] Under Pinochet, Chile's economy was placed under the control of a group of Chilean economists known collectively as the Chicago Boys, whose liberalising policies have been described by some as neoliberal.[8] Former and current supporters of the dictatorship are known as pinochetistas.

History
Military dictatorship
Upon assuming power, the dictatorship's first measure was to ban left-wing political parties and (forcibly) limit the political activity of their members. It also ordered the indefinite suspension of other political parties; however, many members of right-wing parties (and a few Christian Democrats and Radicals) actively collaborated with Pinochet's regime (but were unable to demonstrate their thoughts openly).[citation needed] Lucía Hiriart, who served as First Lady of Chile as Pinochet's wife, brought together Pinochetist women through CEMA Chile, an institution she directed from 1973 to 2016. CEMA Chile had more than 500,000 members and was granted a large budget to use for its operations.[9] The far-right Spanish politician Blas Piñar supported the Chilean dictatorship and declared himself an admirer of Pinochet's work, meeting him on several occasions in Chile and Spain.[10][11] During the 70s, all party political activity was prohibited.

Sure fits the fascist criteria but if we want to be precise he was a Chicago school neoliberal.

Another few facts about A. Pinochet:

Regarding Pinochet's rise to power, the CIA concluded in a report issued in 2000 that: "The CIA actively supported the military junta after the overthrow of Allende but did not assist Pinochet to assume the Presidency." However, the 2000 report also stated that: "The major CIA effort against Allende came earlier in ..

What were the atrocities of Pinochet?
According to the Commission of Truth and Reconciliation (Rettig Commission) and the National Commission on Political Imprisonment and Torture (Valech Commission), the number of direct victims of human rights violations in Chile accounts for around 30,000 people: 27,255 tortured and 2,279 executed.

Who did Pinochet assassinate?
She worked at the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington, D.C. This 1978 CIA intelligence estimate concludes that Chilean General Augusto Pinochet "personally ordered" the assassination of former Chilean diplomat Orlando Letelier.


Naresh Kumar
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Accountant at Politics of India (2013–present)10mo
Augusto Pinochet's regime in Chile (1973-1990) was characterized by widespread human rights violations, political repression, and economic policies that disproportionately benefited the wealthy while harming the poor.

During this period, thousands of Chileans were tortured, killed, or forcibly disappeared by state security forces. The regime also targeted leftist political parties, labor unions, and social movements, often using extrajudicial methods to silence dissent.

For those who were not directly targeted by the regime, everyday life could still be difficult. The regime implemented policies that led to widespread poverty and inequality, as well as restrictions on freedom of expression, association, and assembly. The media was heavily censored, and those who spoke out against the regime were often punished severely.

The Pinochet regime also implemented a neoliberal economic model that prioritized privatization and deregulation, leading to a significant increase in unemployment, inflation, and poverty. Many basic goods and services were privatized, making them unaffordable for many Chileans.

Overall, life under Pinochet's fascist regime was characterized by fear, violence, and economic hardship for many Chileans.

A RESOUNDING SUCCESS EL PINOCHECITO WAS FOR THE WEALTHY AND THE POWERFUL:

No wonder the man is an icon to those who kiss ass to the right-wing power-drunk assholes in the world. I am not surprised.

Culturally the Chileans on the cultural scale are super communal thinkers. That is why socialism even though the neoliberal nuts like Pinochet were in Chile, could not stop the election of socialistic people. Because culturally the Chileans are not about the rugged individualist dog-eat-dog scene. They never will be.

In the culture scale Chileans are about GROUP THINKING. They always will be. Maybe they are truly Mapuches in their hearts eh?



El pueblo de Chile sigue para adelante. A pesar de los problemas. Gente de gran fuerza y gran virtud.

They sure do like those Nova Trova Cuban songs in Chile. I think Silvio Rodriguez the Cuban singer-songwriter composer, that is in my signature on PoFo filled the stadium with 90,000 people:

Here it is:

[wat0n]

Sure fits the fascist criteria but if we want to be precise he was a Chicago school neoliberal.

These are mutually exclusive categories. People who believe in "everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State" don't go on privatization and deregulation sprees.

[Tainari88]

These are mutually exclusive categories. People who believe in "everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State" don't go on privatization and deregulation sprees.

The issue in Chile was very clear. Pinochet was not the legitimate ruler for many reasons. But, on top of all that Chile still after his exit to England--went on to elect socialist presidents.

The reality is trying to make everyone in politics conform via violence and threats to one system is about fear. Unfounded fear. People need to be allowed choices and it has to be an educated choice. Not a coerced choice. If the most powerful socioeconomic classes in society are in disagreement with that choice? They need to respect it. If they believe in democratic votes. If it is about monarchies and dictatorships? Then they need to be held accountable for their actions and their bad policies.

Everything is about causes and effects Wat0n. The stupid spending sprees are about corrupt oligarchs and plutocrats, and wars and spending on sheer nonsense for centuries. That is not going to bring us a damn thing but instability, misery, and resentment. Violence and war is the logical outcome of such mentalities.

Nixon and Kissinger had no right to dictate politics to other sovereign nations.

What the future is about is creating a justice system that enforces international law based on human rights all over the world. Based on human rights for everyone. Not for the rich and powerful only.

That is the future. Right now? Very hard to get the very wealthy nations ruled by a plutocracy that loves capitalism only...to play by democratic rules that are not about coercion and force but about being well educated and prepared.

It sounds like science fiction. But it is not. It can happen. Mainly because the choice of profit only and small groups of people dominating all of the resources on planet Earth is going to be spelling the word E-X-T-I-N-C-T-I-O-N.

Just like slavery reached its historical and economic zenith in the world....so will this system we live under. The neoliberal crap does not work Wat0n. Got to lift billions of people out of poverty and deprivation. And we need to seek balance with nature. Take only what you truly need. Not what is wanted and wasted by the elites of the planet.

It will change the values and priorities over time. Just like wage-based economies made slavery obsolete...climate crisis is going to force societies to change the narrow focus of capitalism for an approach that is about tapping the maximum productivity of all humans. Educating them all well, housing them with intelligence, creating a health system that functions for all, recycling what exists, and creating systems that are about living minimalistically but with a lot of freedom to develop human needs and human potential.

The time for selfish waste and violent privileges at the cost of group welfare and group development is soon to die off.

A new beginning is at hand. But people have to change Wat0n. Doing the same dysfunctional crap and hoping that creating misery in other societies that do not agree with other socioeconomic classes that do not share in any real wealth or opportunities is a study in negative consequences and wasted lives.

That needs to end.

[wat0n]

@Tainari88 I don't dispute Pinochet was a dictator, just that he was a fascist. He wasn't, and that doesn't make him any less wicked (as one can see if looking for some of the things he said).

[Tainari88]

@Tainari88 I don't dispute Pinochet was a dictator, just that he was a fascist. He wasn't, and that doesn't make him any less wicked (as one can see if looking for some of the things he said).

He had a lot of classic 'I am a fascist categories'.

Oh damn, @wat0n Pinochet sure does fit the profile.

[wat0n]

He had a lot of classic 'I am a fascist categories'.

Oh damn, @wat0n Pinochet sure does fit the profile.

Fascists don't go around liberalizing the economy. They are quite statist, even if not outright socialists.

You can see it in how fascist dictatorships behaved, even Franco - who at some point reduced regulations - didn't nearly go as far in liberalizing the economy as the Chicago Boys did.

[Tainari88]

Fascists don't go around liberalizing the economy. They are quite statist, even if not outright socialists.

You can see it in how fascist dictatorships behaved, even Franco - who at some point reduced regulations - didn't nearly go as far in liberalizing the economy as the Chicago Boys did.

I am going to assume you are about neoliberal stuff Wat0n. The truth is that in practice if you allow the corporations and the people who own the means of production in any economy in a capitalist framework it becomes abusive with the public. With worker rights, and it is bound to be creating inequality.

They buy out the government and they want more and more. Everything privatized with the excuses that it is more efficient. But even Elon Musk says you got to have strong regulations and a lot of interference by the state in breaking up monopolies in any big industry. You have to do it Wat0n. Because the tendency is abuse of power and not caring about worker protections, or the environment. Eliminate the EPA and so on. Just allow the corporations to take over entire nations, and governments. They become the authority. And they ABUSE IT BADLY. No real common good there Wat0n. Just a bunch of very powerful few giant players dominating the entire globe to extract, to control and to dominate the world forever. Nothing about accountability for the workers and the people laboring for bad salaries.

Neoliberalism does not work in Latin America. I already posted why previously with the definitions of Pinochetismo problems. Anyone who thinks torture and killing and jailing to make sure the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and misery and fear rules society is the BEST fucking thing to happen to a government, a nation and a people are just WRONG. Invalid. And basically immoral in my perspective. They need to stop their lies and their false shit and wake up to the reality that you need to respect human rights, respect democratic votes, and serve the ones who are LOWER CLASS. The lower class are the majority. That is democracy. Respect the power of the most people working the most of all.

If you hate that? Then go live in a a monarchy and be a peasant in feudal times being abused for your lifetime. Go be a slave. Go suffer the indignities of being powerless in those horrible structures. Because we have evolved out of them for a reason. They were oppressive, hard to live through, and were about unbalanced power relationships. They were replaced.

If you want to live that way? Then do so. Live it. But if you want to be a king in a monarchy? I am thinking your ego needs to be checked.

Frankly, continuing with neoliberalism is a mistake. Because neoliberalism combined with AI and all the dangers of AI without an ability of the state to regulate and make sure the COMMON GOOD or the PUBLIC is protected from abuse of that technology is a serious danger to the world and to society. Capitalism with just total domination by the very wealthiest and most powerful private industries with a weak sellout government? Is a formula for an absolute tragedy of epic proportions. Elon Musk on that topic:

https://youtube.com/shorts/F1fnxfYdaE4? ... 3Olusp4JfI

Lol.

[QatzelOk]

I just got back from two weeks in Havana. My perception of Cuba changed a lot on this visit because I speak more Spanish now than I did on the last five visits. So I had a lot more spontaneous converstations with Habaneros and Habaneras this time.

TECHNOLOGY STILL FAILING

Boom-box technology has improved tremendously, and now most young Cubans are able to buy a device that is powerful enough to have an outdoor party with tons of bass to get everyone moving!

Result: all public spaces are a noise-hell where you hear five or six different electronic danse songs simultaneously.

Electric moped technology has also made leaps and bounds, and there were a lot more of these on the roads than when I was in Havana last time four years ago. These vehicles are very quiet, but luckily for noise-lovers, you can program them to make a hellish noise whenever you park them. And this is what most Cubans do, making public squares and other rendez-vour areas very unpleasant and dystopic.

On the flip side, there are a lot more bicycles in Havana now than four years ago.

***

While the normal noise of Cubans talking loudly and all the anarchy of central Havana is stimulating and even charming, these new electronic noises are hellish and remove any charms that the local culture has. The background noise that is created is NOT musical, but instead resembles the sound pollution near a factory. Factory noise is not at all conducive to human life, so I do wonder why Cubans tolerate this kind of invasion of their mental space.

Because noise is free?

[wat0n]

So Havana is sounding more like a large city then?

Why are Cubans opting to use that technology?

[Tainari88]

I just got back from two weeks in Havana. My perception of Cuba changed a lot on this visit because I speak more Spanish now than I did on the last five visits. So I had a lot more spontaneous converstations with Habaneros and Habaneras this time.

TECHNOLOGY STILL FAILING

Boom-box technology has improved tremendously, and now most young Cubans are able to buy a device that is powerful enough to have an outdoor party with tons of bass to get everyone moving!

Result: all public spaces are a noise-hell where you hear five or six different electronic danse songs simultaneously.

Electric moped technology has also made leaps and bounds, and there were a lot more of these on the roads than when I was in Havana last time four years ago. These vehicles are very quiet, but luckily for noise-lovers, you can program them to make a hellish noise whenever you park them. And this is what most Cubans do, making public squares and other rendez-vour areas very unpleasant and dystopic.

On the flip side, there are a lot more bicycles in Havana now than four years ago.

***

While the normal noise of Cubans talking loudly and all the anarchy of central Havana is stimulating and even charming, these new electronic noises are hellish and remove any charms that the local culture has. The background noise that is created is NOT musical, but instead resembles the sound pollution near a factory. Factory noise is not at all conducive to human life, so I do wonder why Cubans tolerate this kind of invasion of their mental space.

Because noise is free?

I smiled a lot at this one @QatzelOk. They tolerate the noise a lot eh? You just did not really know Spanish speaking Caribbean culture that well yet then.

Puerto Rico and San Juan was a noise hell in the 1980s and in the late 1990s, and now and in the past. Loud dance music booming everywhere is NORMAL shit for us. Reggaeton and Bad Bunny pounding on your ears all the time and every merengue tune and loud stuff is the norm in that part of the world Q.

Peaceful and Quiet is for the countryside and in some old age persons homes.

My husband grew up in a government low income housing project in San Juan. That was damn noisy shit day and night. Shootings, fights, screams, ambulance sirens, drunken singers who lived there and were part of a famous live band singing at 4am in the morning. Conga players playing loud congas and drums and tambourines and chanting African style all night long.....bottles from too many beers breaking on the cement, and cars with bad mufflers, and bullets from drug dealers fighting on the corner, and heat, and people out there day and night NONSTOP for hours and hours. He got used to it. He did.

Then he moved to the states. First few nights in some semi arid desert with no one around since the little town had only about 100k people in it and he could not sleep properly. He was used to the NOISE pollution of the Caribbean.

Cubans, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans speak loudly, and with a lot of animation. And they like loud music, and loud sounds, and they like nighttime because in Puerto Rico you have the sounds of the tropics, which are coqui frogs, and crickets, birds and animals and people moving around a lot. It is not a quiet place. It never has been.

My house in Merida is in a semi dead end street and very quiet at night. I bought the house partially because it was secluded and it was quiet at night. The Yucatecans compared to the Puerto Ricans are very quiet and they also love blasting salsa music on Saturday nights until 2 AM as well. Lol.

You made me smile Q.

Remember Havana is only a 20 minute plane trip from Mérida and you are welcome any time. I will take you to the archaeological zones and have fun eh?

Lol.

Average street noise in Puerto Rico in Santurce at night.

When I was young I would get dressed up and dance for hours and hours straight nonstop. Drink some pineapple juice and then head home around 4 AM. That is a Puerto Rican young woman average Saturday night Q. The Cubans are kind of similar with that.

Do you notice the girls and couples holding hands with each other in both cultures. And they dance and put on the skimpy clothes and go and dance and socialize for hours and hours and hours....noise all the way.

Cuban bands like Los Van Van playing. I love that group! Irakere I love.

Here is Havana at night kind of. See how the Ricans and the Cubans are similar with the style?