Cuba has proven that capitalism and technology are failures - Page 42 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14977215
Stormsmith wrote:Agreed. I think you guys need to seriously look at health care abroad.


I don’t see how it will matter. The taxpayers will still be charged too much even with national healthcare. We must first destroy the swamp before any meaningful changes can be made. Congress’s refusal to place meaningful restrictions on their graft is all I need to know that national healthcare will benefit them more than me. The American public are willing fools to buy into the Democrat/Republican divide instead of asking why neither party is passing reforms on their own corruption.
Trump’s emphasis on destroying the swamp was our best chance at serious change and the public is more interested in his personality. We are too stupid for democracy to work. Even if you don’t think he is serious, it was an opportunity to force him to be serious. Instead the fools let themselves be distracted by shiny objects.
#14977259
The swamp claim is simply wrong.

If that were the problem, developing countries with public health care systems would also have the problem of high prices for mediocre results. This is not the case.

The actual reason is because capitalism is ill suited for health care distribution.
#14977290
Pants-of-dog wrote:The swamp claim is simply wrong.

If that were the problem, developing countries with public health care systems would also have the problem of high prices for mediocre results. This is not the case.

The actual reason is because capitalism is ill suited for health care distribution.


I don’t understand your comparison. I am not an expert on all the reasons, but I believe they are more complicated than simply saying capitalism. My guess would be a lot of it comes from our dual philosophies of wanting ‘protection from everything’ at ‘a low cost’. I believe the US is one of the most expensive places to bring a drug to market due to government safety regulations. The companies then are allowed to increase their prices several fold to offset the cost of bringing them to market. Democrats are just as involved in this as Republicans. Meeting regulations cost money. The government turns a blind eye to price gouging as a reward to the medical establishment. This isn’t capitalism. This is cronyism or The Swamp.
#14977313
Cuba gets excellent results in education -- at least in their mathematics education, which is something I know about.
They are way ahead of other Latin American countries.

A lot of people think of Cuba as a kind of Carribbean North Korea. Not true. It's not a democracy, no question. And its economy is terrible -- everyone there knows that, including, especially, the leadership.

How can Cuba go forward, to take advantage of their excellent educational system and the entrepreneurship of their people, while retaining, and adding to, the conquests of their Revolution?

If you'd like to see Cubans, and others, discussing these issues -- or even to contribute to the discussion yourself -- you should look at a remarkable online Newspaper, published in both English and Spanish: The Havana Times, at HavanaTimes.org.

Here's a link to an interview, now several years old, with its editor, in a British communist newspaper: https://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/848/m ... restroika/

If you're a genuine hard-core far-right type, then you won't like The Havana Times.
Here's the lowdown on it from the far right: http://havanajournal.com/politics/entry ... propaganda

But everyone else should have a look, and then subscribe (for free).
#14979558
Doug1943 wrote:It's not a democracy, no question. And its economy is terrible -- everyone there knows that, including, especially, the leadership.

NOT A DEMOCRACY
Cubans just rewrote their country's constitution. And when I say "Cubans," I mean "the people of Cuba." Over 6 million Cubans attended a series of meetings (over 130,000 meetings were held) in order to democratically vote on the new constitution which will define their country and governance.
(Compare this to the USA where a clique of slave-owners wrote the constitution in order to protect their property against real democracy, and the 'swamp' that has ruled using this constitution ever since)

And the economy is only "terrible" if you think that sustainability and universal care of everyone aren't important at all. If you think this way, it is probably because of our Western media-created mindlessness working against logic and compassion.
...

Sivad wrote:It's funny @skinster thinks she has any idea what life is like for the average Cuban. Your tourist ass has no idea what those people go through and if you did ever move to Cuba I would love to be there to see the look on your face when the reality sets in.

I met a few Quebecois who have retired and moved to Cuba during my last two trips to Cuba (I just got back two weeks ago). A few have married Cuban women and have settled down for their retirement years.

Florida used to be THE PLACE for Quebecois to retire. Hollywood, Florida has great poutine, apparently. But the reputation of Quebecois in Florida was always overweight and drunk retirees wearing skimpy speedos, living in RVs, eating junk food and playing golf while perma-drunk. There's even a bunch of films about this kitsch time in recent Quebec history (La Florida, Elvis Gratton...)
#14979567
QatzelOk wrote:NOT A DEMOCRACY
Cubans just rewrote their country's constitution. And when I say "Cubans," I mean "the people of Cuba." Over 6 million Cubans attended a series of meetings (over 130,000 meetings were held) in order to democratically vote on the new constitution which will define their country and governance.
(Compare this to the USA where a clique of slave-owners wrote the constitution in order to protect their property against real democracy, and the 'swamp' that has ruled using this constitution ever since)

And the economy is only "terrible" if you think that sustainability and universal care of everyone aren't important at all. If you think this way, it is probably because of our Western media-created mindlessness working against logic and compassion.
...


I met a few Quebecois who have retired and moved to Cuba during my last two trips to Cuba (I just got back two weeks ago). A few have married Cuban women and have settled down for their retirement years.

Florida used to be THE PLACE for Quebecois to retire. Hollywood, Florida has great poutine, apparently. But the reputation of Quebecois in Florida was always overweight and drunk retirees wearing skimpy speedos, living in RVs, eating junk food and playing golf while perma-drunk. There's even a bunch of films about this kitsch time in recent Quebec history (La Florida, Elvis Gratton...)


Cuba is not and has not been a democracy in a long time, possibly ever since it was not much better even before the revolution of fidel.

The country that your quebecois friend experience has nothing to do with that of native born cubans. For starters, the most of the few people that end up "retiring" in cuba does so with significantly higher resources and freedoms than cuban people have. For instance if you own a house in canada and a retirement account worth ~50k and you retire in canada, chances are you are not going to live from those savings very much and certainly not very luxurious. Even if we were to include pensions and SSS-equivalent benefits the canadian guy staying in canada won't have much of a retirement other than counting penies. Now if you sell your house and go to cuba (or some other latin-american country for that matter) your money will last you far more. Foreign borns in cuba actually have more rights than native born. This have changed somehow in the last few years since Raul took power from his brother but it is uncertain how long it will last.
For instance, just over 10 years ago, cubans were not allowed to stay or even enter the rooms of most hotels. I personally got stopped at Melia Cohiba hotel in havana cuba from going to the rooms of family members that have traveled from the US to cuba.
Now. Before you go into a rant "things have changed, this is no longer the case" the point is the life of a tourist or foreign-born in cuba is dramatically different from someone born there.
With 50k usd + value of a small house in canada, which by no means is a fortune. A couple could retire to cuba and live a relatively luxurious life. They could pay $10/day to a doctor in cuba to clean their house, cook their meal and iron their clothes and the doctor would hapily do it because they would make 10x as much doing this than working as an actual doctor.
Furthermore, they can always leave. A freedom most cubans do not have. As a cuban you cannot go to the airline representative with $1k USD and pickup a ticket to another country for tourism or for any other reason. It simply would not work.
Again... you are arguing a very silly point and you are not right.
#14979599
Doug1943 wrote:Cuba gets excellent results in education -- at least in their mathematics education, which is something I know about.
They are way ahead of other Latin American countries.

A lot of people think of Cuba as a kind of Carribbean North Korea. Not true. It's not a democracy, no question. And its economy is terrible -- everyone there knows that, including, especially, the leadership.

How can Cuba go forward, to take advantage of their excellent educational system and the entrepreneurship of their people, while retaining, and adding to, the conquests of their Revolution?

If you'd like to see Cubans, and others, discussing these issues -- or even to contribute to the discussion yourself -- you should look at a remarkable online Newspaper, published in both English and Spanish: The Havana Times, at HavanaTimes.org.

Here's a link to an interview, now several years old, with its editor, in a British communist newspaper: https://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/848/m ... restroika/

If you're a genuine hard-core far-right type, then you won't like The Havana Times.
Here's the lowdown on it from the far right: http://havanajournal.com/politics/entry ... propaganda

But everyone else should have a look, and then subscribe (for free).


Thank you for this Doug. I will subscribe. Mexico has direct flights to Havana from various Mexican cities. Also, Cuba has requirements for its foreign residents. It is very similar to requirements many nations all over the world have. Don't have a criminal record, do not be fleeing from the law in your own nation, you need to be financially solvent and not fleeing from debt in your own nation, and you need to bring some kind of value to the nation. If you want to get fast track visas in many nations all over the world the basic requirements: 1) Don't be a criminal, 2) Don't be with contagious diseases, 3) Don't be in debt and prove you can sustain yourself financially while there, 4) Have skills that contribute. Most countries like people like that in there.

Cuba is no different. Cuba in my opinion needs to liberalize on internet use for education purposes. I would not want some dirty porn and negative crap that kids might see. Have to have the restricted anyway for minors.

They should develop their own computer coding. Invest more in selling their great pharmaceutical stuff like drugs that tackle lung cancer effectively all over the world. But again? The USA puts artificial pressure on that. Mexico ignores it mostly. A lot of nations in Latin America ignore the rules set by the USA.

The hotels, restaurants and tourism tours are thriving. They should continue to use funds from that to rebuild and refurbish public civic buildings that they do now. For example the Bellas Artes building that is used by the Ballet school in Havana has been completed using the money from tourism in various hotels and restaurants owned by the Cuban government.

They have a ballet school that is the biggest school in the entire world. El Ballet Nacional de Cuba has over 3000 active students. The biggest one of its kind in the world. More than Paris, London, Moscow, New York by far. They should continue to invest in the arts and expand that.

The next big explosion is in art forms, all of them. Music, dance, theater, acting and film, writing, and publishing and disseminate all that information and artistic production outside in areas that the USA embargo can't really manipulate.

Another possible thing is to use a model of their own national currency with a very unregulated style like Crypto currency but for the Cuban government to stimulate its economy from. But without the energy waste. The double CUC/Cuban Peso thing is cumbersome. I think Latin America might benefit from uniting many nations economically in the future. So that the benefits of that boosts revenue for governments needing a higher GDP.

The reason why the coral reefs are healthy in Cuba is because the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 and they no longer were using artificial fertilizers and chemicals for their crops. They went back to old fashioned manure and natural fertilizers and the runoff of that that went into the ocean from the rivers were no longer imbalanced in nitrogen levels. From 1992 to now, the reefs recovered fully and also Cuba prohibits strictly over fishing and over use of the ocean fishing areas for commercial purposes. It keeps the fish at a healthy balance as well.

I think also they need to allow much younger generations to run things. Older and old men and women making decisions about what should get accomplished is a big mistake in government. Got to allow the youth to have a large say so in their own futures.

They should not fear fraud from the Yankee interference excuses from the past. Even with massive fraud the Mexican Right was defeated. They need to trust in that process.

They also need to get a lot of varied consumer goods produced and also imported. Mexican furniture, appliances, consumer goods are very high quality. So are Brazilian goods, Bolivian agriculture, and many others, the PRC trades bicycles too, and many other goods. They should strengthen all ties to other countries.

The brigades of medical doctors to South America, and Africa have been incredibly successful. They should keep that up.

So many things that can be improved. But they did well considering the realities of the other islands and other smaller nations in the same region. Most of Central America is right wing and pro capitalism. They have huge exodus of their people due to bad economic conditions and crime. All taking place under capitalist economies that are underdeveloped. Yet the socialist model having a bunch of Cubans leaving on boats to get to the USA to become consumers and middle class? Is the direct responsibility of any form of socialism. It is never people wanting to buy stuff and live with large amounts of income compared to their native nations. No.

Foolish people thinking you get to the USA are Latin American, don't speak English, have low or mediocre educations, and have been in the working class your whole life and voila! The American USA system is going to make you middle class. Right away. It doesn't happen that way. They usually find out they won't get to the middle class status about 5-10 years into their stay in the USA. Many of them go back to their home nations. Even in Ellis Island in the NYC many immigrants packed and left the USA en masse all the time. No one does the research on that because it doesn't fit the American Propaganda of everyone gets the American Dream narrative. It doesn't really happen for vast amounts of immigrants.

But no one talks about the ones who don't make it in the USA and fail economically to rise through the socioeconomic ranks.

There are a lot of them. Many have children that become a first generation American, and or they get locked up for crime, because they are between two worlds---an American one,that only respects people with wealth and possessions, and external markers of success like banker, doctor, or lawyers, or business people with large amounts of profit margins. They can't do it (become wealthy within one generation) for many reasons. Then you got the other half that feel they are not like their parents. They are no longer Mexicans, or Salvadorans or Cubans, but some hybrid and without any real roots, and they are neither here or there. They face discrimination and they face frustrations. Because their parents don't really get the culture they tried to move to--it is a value system they did not grow up in, and it is tough to adjust to it all, they never got to have opportunities, how the entire system is geared to give advantages to those in the right neighborhoods, with the right set of pre-requisites, and it doesn't include foreign immigrants with no command of the English language and an 8th grade education. Their kids are out there floating about values. Getting mixed messages.

All this is hard. And tough. The solution is to allow sovereign and independent nations to make their own decisions. Ultimately they people who are born and raised there? Have the biggest investment in making it work. Manipulating countries and using force and selfish interests to force things out of the less militarily or economically powerful nations to capitulate to those who don't give one damn about the other people in other nations? Won't work. It just won't.
Last edited by Tainari88 on 13 Jan 2019 18:45, edited 2 times in total.
#14979600
One Degree wrote:I like the part where the ‘free elections’ were held at organized meetings. :)

Have you ever taken part in the drafting of a constitution? Because I have, on a tiny but important scale. I helped draft the first by-laws for my housing cooperative. And it was by consultation with all members.

The meetings held regarding the new Cuban constitution were for the purposes of explaining, clause by clause, the document, and then collecting proposed revisions. Later, clause by clause were voted on. Not everyone is interested in all clauses, but votes were cast from all over Cuba on proposed changes to many things.

Millions took part. A majority of the people participated, and the meetings were held in many kinds of places, even in high schools. People as young as 16 contributed their opinions to the Constitution!

It's amazing how little is voted on by Public Consulation in supposed democracies. Cuba held off for 60 years before doing this, but it has benefited greatly from revolutionary education for all since then. The people are ready to speak for themselves and write their constitution.

I found this really exciting and positive. XogGyux , I don't know how you can criticize public consultation if you're really defending democracy (and not just oligarchy).
Last edited by QatzelOk on 13 Jan 2019 18:44, edited 1 time in total.
#14979609
QatzelOk wrote:Have you ever taken part in the drafting of a constitution? Because I have, on a tiny but important scale. I helped draft the first by-laws for my housing cooperative. And it was by consultation with all members.

The meetings held regarding the new Cuban constitution were for the purposes of explaining, clause by clause, the document, and then collecting proposed revisions. Later, clause by clause were voted on. Not everyone is interested in all clauses, but votes were cast from all over Cuba on proposed changes to many things.

Millions took part. A majority of the people participated, and the meetings were held in many kinds of places, even in high schools. People as young as 16 contributed their opinions to the Constitution!

It's amazing how little is voted on by Public Consulation in supposed democracies. Cuba held off for 60 years before doing this, but it has benefited greatly from revolutionary education for all since then. The people are ready to speak for themselves and write their constitution.

I found this really exciting and positive. XogGyux , I don't know how you can criticize public consultation if you're really defending democracy (and not just oligarchy).


Actually, I chaired a committee to create a city zoning ordinance. After over a years work, it was rejected without comment by the council. This is an indication of how such things work. Despite the appearance of public input, it only succeeds if you come up with what they wanted.
If there was no public anonymous vote, then it was not truly created by the people.
#14979612
One Degree wrote:If there was no public anonymous vote, then it was not truly created by the people.

Capitalism (late-stage, particularly) has destroyed our social trust.

But Cuba's revolutionary education system was aimed at creating a "new man" and social trust is a big part of what can be created by equality and social ownership.

My housing cooperative is probably a better example because it's member-driven, related to the basics of life (housing), and idealistic-socialist in its functioning. And the education of members is extremely important in getting this member-driven decision-making process to work. So is social trust.
#14979615
QatzelOk wrote:I found this really exciting and positive. XogGyux , I don't know how you can criticize public consultation if you're really defending democracy (and not just oligarchy).

I find it positive as well but don't mistake this with hope. The fact is, Cuba have been slowly rotting for more than half a century and I do not see any quick solution in the horizon. I saw a little bit of hope when Obama started thawing the relationship with cuba. I figured if the island starts opening up eventually the government will not have such a tight grasp on the people, information leads to freedom and to be honest, I do think Raul is far less of a serpent as his older brother and I think the fact that he took some steps to peacefully give his power away is a positive step. But don't be fooled, what took decades to destroy cannot be rebuilt in a weekend, Cuba has a few tough decades in front of it. Maybe if we get a progressive president in 2020 and we start resuming relationships we can speed up the process but in the meantime make no mistake, that place sucks.
#14979620
One Degree wrote:Actually, I chaired a committee to create a city zoning ordinance. After over a years work, it was rejected without comment by the council. This is an indication of how such things work. Despite the appearance of public input, it only succeeds if you come up with what they wanted.
If there was no public anonymous vote, then it was not truly created by the people.


No, they rejected it because you are not a very good analyzer or thinker obviously. I would reject anything you ever came up with. It is terrible! :lol: :lol:

They knew what they were doing! :D
#14979622
QatzelOk wrote:Capitalism (late-stage, particularly) has destroyed our social trust.

But Cuba's revolutionary education system was aimed at creating a "new man" and social trust is a big part of what can be created by equality and social ownership.

My housing cooperative is probably a better example because it's member-driven, related to the basics of life (housing), and idealistic-socialist in its functioning. And the education of members is extremely important in getting this member-driven decision-making process to work. So is social trust.

Q, you must know that under this system we live under? People have a hard time not thinking about rampant self interest, capitalistic profit driven motives and not cooperating because it is dog-eat-dog. Banks, and for profit is so beat into the American consciousness that they won't ever admit they have been 'programmed' to not trust groups and social trust ever. They live in fear. That is precisely why Trump is in the White House. Fear and more fear and they know they are being screwed by the plutocracy, but they think they have a chance to becoming the plutocrac-- like a type of casino capitalism (one day I too will be a multi millionaire and have wealth like Midas--cuz the system tells me so, got to keep going back to the casino and see if I win?) with a lack of working class sense of identity. It is perfect storm of brain washed fear based stuff.

OD is one of the worst I have come across in a long time. Lol.

Fear, of anything that has to do with sharing with others. They only trust selfish behavior, selfish decisions and egotism. That is why they worship Trump man.
#14979627
Tainari88 wrote:No, they rejected it because you are not a very good analyzer or thinker obviously. I would reject anything you ever came up with. It is terrible! :lol: :lol:

They knew what they were doing! :D


Yeah, I am sure that is why they asked me to chair it. looney tunes. :)
#14979628
XogGyux wrote:I find it positive as well but don't mistake this with hope. The fact is, Cuba have been slowly rotting for more than half a century and I do not see any quick solution in the horizon. I saw a little bit of hope when Obama started thawing the relationship with cuba. I figured if the island starts opening up eventually the government will not have such a tight grasp on the people, information leads to freedom and to be honest, I do think Raul is far less of a serpent as his older brother and I think the fact that he took some steps to peacefully give his power away is a positive step. But don't be fooled, what took decades to destroy cannot be rebuilt in a weekend, Cuba has a few tough decades in front of it. Maybe if we get a progressive president in 2020 and we start resuming relationships we can speed up the process but in the meantime make no mistake, that place sucks.



I think you need to go to Cuba and visit their progress in medicine especially. It is quite hopeful.

No, XogGyux, I would not say the place sucks. It needs improvement. But if you go to Haiti? Under capitalism? That really really sucks. Many nations in the Caribbean basin suck with the economy. You should study the reasons why we are very poor all these years. It is because all these European powers colonized us for centuries and had no interest in being fair with us. They created enormous revolt and real distrust in these fake 'justice'bringers. A bunch of liars are the European powers from the 16,17,18th and 19th centuries XogGyux.

I would not trust Yankee governments EVER if I had Cuba's history with the USA. Our island Puerto Rico might get their billions for the hurricane recovery taken for Trump's wall. Let us rot.....his shitty ideas take precedence. As a Puerto Rican? I would not like the USA's ways of coping with us AT ALL.

Imagine Cuba? They got invaded by the USA various times through out its history. Jose Marti fought Spain for a long time. Hundreds of thousands of Cubans lost their lives becoming a free nation. For the Americans to come in and come up with the Monroe Doctrine and the Platt Amendment. It is a terrible history.

The USA keeps Guantanamo Bay even though the Cuban gov't hates that with a passion rarely seen. Why? They need to use the Caribbean for military purposes.

The USA is not Mr. Nice Guy in the Caribbean. Being in any way compromising with the American government in Latin America is shown to be equal to treason against your own nation, selling out, and being a puppet. If you think that is the way to do things for independence? It is not XogGy.

Being some nasty Empire's plaything will not do much for you if you are not a powerful, first world nation. They will pressure you, kill anyone who protests and impose their will on you by force. It is ugly as hell colonialism is. Yet so many Americans are blithely ignorant about what their government's history is in Latin America, Africa, Southeast Asia and the Caribbean. They are ignorant in the extreme. It is not good.
#14979629
One Degree wrote:Yeah, I am sure that is why they asked me to chair it. looney tunes. :)


Even worse. They thought you could come up with something logical. And they found out you could not and wasted their time completely like you do here....Lol.

Time is a-wasting again. :lol:

A whole year to waste others time? Hmmm. You are selfish too there. No surprise.
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