[XogGyux]

I can relate to this because I jaywalk all the time, don't wear a bike helmet, and smoked pot when it was totally illegal.

Yeah, I am sure you can relate to this. Because the slap on the wrist or the $20 dollar fine corresponds having your ass thrown into jail for 20 years or having your car or house confiscated by the state because it was used for something illegal...
Dude, you come up with the most ridiculous excuses ever. You can relate to that in the same way that a papercut victim can relate to being impaled in the chest by a spear. Your subsistence does not depend on you stealing bricks to make shelter, stealing food to eat or breaking the law to get money.

You still haven't dealt with the fact that all the wealth you currently enjoy in the USA... is the result of genocides and war atrocities, committed by using racism and state propaganda which... everyone in the USA "believes."

The same wealth that you are currently enjoying in Canada... I don't see you getting in line to go emigrate to cuba or africa and donating most of what you own. I bet you paid more for your stupid bike than most cubans make in a decade. You sound like the typical NIMBY. You just want OTHERs to carry the burden of improving the world while trying to lecture anyone around you. Fuck you.

[QatzelOk]

Yeah, I am sure you can relate to this. Because the slap on the wrist or the $20 dollar fine corresponds having your ass thrown into jail for 20 years or having your car or house confiscated by the state because it was used for something illegal...
Dude, you come up with the most ridiculous excuses ever. You can relate to that in the same way that a papercut victim can relate to being impaled in the chest by a spear. Your subsistence does not depend on you stealing bricks to make shelter, stealing food to eat or breaking the law to get money.


The same wealth that you are currently enjoying in Canada... I don't see you getting in line to go emigrate to cuba or africa and donating most of what you own. I bet you paid more for your stupid bike than most cubans make in a decade. You sound like the typical NIMBY. You just want OTHERs to carry the burden of improving the world while trying to lecture anyone around you. Fuck you.

I understand that many people in Cuba (and Haiti, and Algeria, and Indonesia, and...) would like to be wealthier. And "leaving the country and moving to the USA" is one of the easiest ways to increase your income level. No argument against this from me.

Do you recommend that everyone in Cuba tries to emigrate to the USA? Is that what you are justifying in this thread, *giving up and moving?"

I would be a hypocrite to criticize this, as I myself moved 2000 km from my birth city (though I didn't do this to increase my revenue, I did it because I felt like I was living in a culture-less hole of depraved materialism). But if someone wants to move to another country to have more wealth, who could blame them. Not me.

On the other hand, you have said virtually nothing about Cuba's system of governance in this thread. So if you have no theoretical background on systems of governance, and haven't been able to find another Caribbean country as a model of what Cuba should be...

Why don't you start another thread about why people in the Caribbean should move to the USA where they can have a lot nicer stuff?

[XogGyux]

I would be a hypocrite to criticize this

Yes, it would.

On the other hand, you have said virtually nothing about Cuba's system of governance in this thread.

Are you fucking kidding me?

[QatzelOk]

Are you ___ kidding me?

No, I'm not. Your whole strategy in this thread is to compare *your current living conditions* (and mine) to *the current living conditions in Cuba.*

And of course, this doesn't include things like lifespan or quantity of free time and social capital... things that Cuba has advantages in. Only material conditions such as "SUVs per capita."

And since living conditions are a product of much more than goverance type, and since you have studiously avoided comparing living conditions in Cuba to living conditions in peer nations (El Salvador, Haiti, Barbados, Jamaica, Guatamala, Venezuela, etc.)... all you have said in this thread is that North Americans currently have a lot more stuff than Cubans do. This is correct but beside the point.



More stuff = better system?

Nazi prison guards had more stuff than their Jewish prisoners did in WW2 did - would you conclude that this was because of the superior system the guards had?

Jeffrey Dahmer had more stuff than his victims did. Was this because he was a better person?

King Leopold of Belgium had a lot more stuff than the Congolese did. Was he a better example of "how to live your life?"

[QatzelOk]

The Most Violent Cities In The World

Out of the world's 50 most violent cities, 38 are in Latin America including 17 in Mexico.

The Mexico Citizens Council for Public Security and Criminal Justice releases its findings on the homicide rate in cities with populations over 300,000 around the world every year.

Statista's Katharina Buchholz shows in the following infographic, the world's top 10 most violent cities, with Mexican city Colima in first place and New Orleans in the U.S. state of Louisiana ranking eighth.



Caracas, the capital of Venezuela, had ranked first in previous editions, but due to the situation in the country, data is no longer available. The majority of the violence in Latin America can be attributed to drug trafficking, gang warfare and political instability.

Another country that appears among the top 50 is Brazil at ten cities, the highest ranked being Mossoró in the country's North in the 11th spot.

Also featured on the list frequently are Colombia (six cities starting from Cali in rank 32) and South Africa (four cities, including Cape Town and two more ranked in the top 20).

The continental United States racks up seven mentions in total. Other than New Orleans, Baltimore (rank 17), Detroit (rank 23), Memphis (rank 25), Cleveland (rank 27), Milwaukee (rank 39) and Philadelphia (rank 46) make the list.

San Juan in Puerto Rico can be found in rank 41.

So of the 50 most violent cities in the world, there are:

17 in Mexico
10 in Brazil
6 in Colombia
4 in South Africa

(0 in Cuba)

And in that non-peer nation, the USA

7 in the USA

[XogGyux]

No, I'm not. Your whole strategy in this thread is to compare *your current living conditions* (and mine) to *the current living conditions in Cuba.*

We have discussed this ad nauseam. When the new system was introduced, Cuba was a relatively wealthy country with a standard of living compared to western nations including the US. Furthermore, if your idea is to brag about how successful a country/system is, comparing it to the likes of Haiti or Somalia is not a good start for your arguments. If "the current living conditions" of cuba are inferior to the "current living conditions that you and I enjoy, the Cuban system is shit.

And of course, this doesn't include things like lifespan or quantity of free time and social capital... things that Cuba has advantages in.

Bullshit. They make up all those numbers.

Only material conditions such as "SUVs per capita."

A soviet era LADA and a 1940's chevy pollute the air more than a modern SUV. A 1970's lada had a fuel consumption of 23mpg, an engine size of 1.6 and 75hp. Meaning that a Lada is the same or worse fuel economy than a Honda CRV. But that was when they were new in the 1970's, most running Ladas in Cuba probably are worse than a Honda Pilot SUV. They aren't better for safety... no airbags, no crumple zones, and shitty breaks. No catalytic converters = shit emissions. The 1920-1950's old American cars are far worse. Some of them would give an old Hummer a run for its money on fuel wasting, and certainly, they will win on polluting gas emissions, as just like the Lada, they lack any sort of emissions mitigation technology. Checkmate. So stop with your foking nonsense of SUVs.

And since living conditions are a product of much more than goverance type, and since you have studiously avoided comparing living conditions in Cuba to living conditions in peer nations (El Salvador, Haiti, Barbados, Jamaica, Guatamala, Venezuela, etc.)...

Except neither of those was a peer nation to cuba when Fidel got power. And second, neither of those are successful nations whose systems should be praised.

More stuff = better system?

As a general rule, pretty much. There is a reason you stay in rich canada rather than selling your possessions and moving to the Amazon to live like a hunter-gatherer. Despite your incessant crying and whining about stuff, you like stuff... that is why you are in Canada because in Canada you can have stuff. In Cuba, you cannot have stuff. That is why you only go to Cuba as a tourist and don't move there. The only difference between you and I is that I don't go around trying to convince others of committing ideological suicide.

Nazi prison guards had more stuff than their Jewish prisoners did in WW2 did - would you conclude that this was because of the superior system the guards had?

Having stuff doesnt make you a better or worse person. But it does make your quality of life better. In your own analogy, the NAZI has a better life. When he finishes patrolling and killing jews he goes to his wife's house and watches the speech of Hittler on the TV and then goes to sleep on his soft bed. Meanwhile, the Jewish's prisoner body starts to decompose since he was just killed in a gas chamber, experimented on or died from hunger. This is not a commentary on which one is a better person, but it is undeniable that the guy with more stuff had a better life.
As usual, you make no sense.

So of the 50 most violent cities in the world, there are:

17 in Mexico
10 in Brazil
6 in Colombia
4 in South Africa

(0 in Cuba)

And in that non-peer nation, the USA

7 in the USA

That is, if you completely ignore the violence impacted by the state on its people.

[QatzelOk]

That is, if you completely ignore the violence impacted by the state on its people.

Yes, I am also ignoring the "violence" of the cisgender pronoun usage of the Cuban state.

Living in the USA has really opened up your eyes to what "violence" means. School shootings and urban violence like the many, many femicides in Latin American cities outside of Cuba... don't count for you, but a socialist government that re-distributes resources.... does.

For you, murder rates are not a meaningful indication of violence? You're more frightened of "social programs?"

[XogGyux]

Yes, I am also ignoring the "violence" of the cisgender pronoun usage of the Cuban state.

Living in the USA has really opened up your eyes to what "violence" means. School shootings and urban violence like the many, many femicides in Latin American cities outside of Cuba... don't count for you, but a socialist government that re-distributes resources.... does.

For you, murder rates are not a meaningful indication of violence. You're more frightened of "social programs?"

So sending your kids to work hard labor in the country doesn't count? Opressing your people to the point they jump on a truck's tire and try to cross the ocean, oftentimes drawing or being eaten by sharks doesn't count? Starving your people doesn't count? I have i just turned 35, and I came at 17, so officially I have lived more years in the USA than in cuba. I have never met a person in the USA that was latter murdered. In Cuba our neighbor 3 houses down the street got killed in his own house. I have never known a person in the USA that has been or has later been on a train de-railment, in cuba, the train that used to take students from Havana to guira derailed a few times with dead kids. The difference is here the news tell you about it... there in Cuba they hide it because it doesn't look good. The statistics are shit. How much do you trust the statistics by the North korean regime? How accurate were the USSR statistics? Or even the Chinese. It is all crap, these authoritarian dictators keep control by pretending everything is doing good. If your family dies and the goverment says "I am sorry, it was a very very unfortunate event, only 0.00000000001% of our people die from that... you stop asking questions. But if your family member dies and the news is constantly telling you that shit is bad, you might raise in protest. Dictators don't like protests. This is how Iran got their protest. That's why they need to lie. And you'd be a fool to believe a single colon in a cuban statistic report.

[Tainari88]

So sending your kids to work hard labor in the country doesn't count? Opressing your people to the point they jump on a truck's tire and try to cross the ocean, oftentimes drawing or being eaten by sharks doesn't count? Starving your people doesn't count? I have i just turned 35, and I came at 17, so officially I have lived more years in the USA than in cuba. I have never met a person in the USA that was latter murdered. In Cuba our neighbor 3 houses down the street got killed in his own house. I have never known a person in the USA that has been or has later been on a train de-railment, in cuba, the train that used to take students from Havana to guira derailed a few times with dead kids. The difference is here the news tell you about it... there in Cuba they hide it because it doesn't look good. The statistics are shit. How much do you trust the statistics by the North korean regime? How accurate were the USSR statistics? Or even the Chinese. It is all crap, these authoritarian dictators keep control by pretending everything is doing good. If your family dies and the goverment says "I am sorry, it was a very very unfortunate event, only 0.00000000001% of our people die from that... you stop asking questions. But if your family member dies and the news is constantly telling you that shit is bad, you might raise in protest. Dictators don't like protests. This is how Iran got their protest. That's why they need to lie. And you'd be a fool to believe a single colon in a cuban statistic report.

I think all societies have to be measured according to the conditions that the people live under Xog. There are achievements that Cuba has done that are good. And others that are bad. The same can be said about the USA.

I live in Mexico. Mexico has a lot of violence related to drugs, crime, and poverty. No one denies that. It is a fact. One has to accept that in Mexico there is a lot of income inequality. You have a large underclass and a small elite wealthy ruling class. The middle classes exist but they are not the majority of Mexican citizens. That is a fact. Why is there violence in Mexico? I look for reasons that are scientific not based on propaganda. Ideas that racists float such as Mexicans are prone to violence I discard. But that Mexicans have lower educational achievement in poor communities and few real opportunities for making a decent salary does interest me as a possible reason. Also power relationships based on a history of abuse of power. For me colonizing a nation is traumatic. You use force, violence and coercion to get others to comply. You fight with an Empire for independence, you establish a government to administer a nation's institutions and economy and you organize venues for dealing with problems of meeting projects and needs.

In the case of Cuba? You got an ex-Spanish colony. One of the few left by the latter half of the 19th century. Remember most other Spanish colonies in the New World had independence movements in the latter half of the 18th and most of the first half of the 19th century. Only a few island nations like Cuba and Puerto Rico and the Philippines were still under the Spanish crown.

XogGyux, the world in that time period in history was about the Manifest Destiny stage of the USA. They were expanding. I can put in quotes of what the politicians in Washington DC were discussing at the time that the Spanish American war was raging. They wanted sugar. Sugar and power. Expansion. It was even floated to make Cuba another state of the union. Or to liberate it from Spain and have it as a controlled unincorporated territory of the USA like Puerto Rico wound up actually being. You really need to study the Cuba vs. USA relationship at that time. The Monroe Doctrine and all the discussions related in the US Congress related to Cuba. I read history like a maniac Xog. I go for original source texts that are highly reliable. The USA wanted to expand their influence into the Western Hemisphere. Control all of Latin America completely. Cuba was on their doorstep. The Spanish coveted Cuba for the same reasons the USA Empire does to this very day. It is great real estate for shipping goods and services and having great trade routes from the Americas, Europe and Western Africa. It means a lot of access to $$$$ Dinero. Money. Profits.

In a historical context Cuba was a jewel in the crown. For their ambitions. It would be a quick war...and they would be able to set the conditions of how to run Cuba from afar. From Washington. You must remember that US foreign policy in Latin America has never been about mutually beneficial relationships But about one way dominant imperial relationships.

We have gone over the real reasons the embargo has not been lifted on Cuba. You and I agree that the embargo has to be lifted. For different reasons sure....but we agree it is not working well as is. It caused insularity in Cuba. Where Cuba has been in a serious disadvantage commercially with other nations in the Americas. It has to get foreign currency from an international system that does not accept the Cuban peso in the vast majority of markets and by almost all banking systems worldwide. It has made a society that can't consume well and reliably and has to organize its society without some really important aspects of economic development. Especially island nations, who are not attached to continents.

Cuba had two choices. Just have a puppet dictator of the US banks and sugar centrales and who controlled electricity, and infrastructure projects in Cuba and let the USA decide who to trade with, and who got power or not in Cuba. Just let them run Cuba and decide all major economic and political decisions in Cuba. If another Batista came along? Good. Just as long as he said yes to the powerful actors there in Washington DC. That was their policy by the way for all of Central America and if you study the history of Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica and Panama and Nicaragua, it is a history of total manipulation by all of the Central American nations that favor the US business and military elite. There is no controversy about that at all.

The second choice that Cuba had? Was to negotiate with the USA and try to get equal footing as a sovereign and independent nation that fought Spain in a bloody war that took a lot of lives. Why fight Spain to be the colony or de facto colony of the USA? The USA was supposed to improve conditions for the Cubans. If they had improved the conditions enough with good puppet dictators that also were able to be good administrators of Cuban interests then Cuba would be a capitalist unequal but chugging along consumer style economy with Toyotas, and Nissans and Chevrolet cars being imported from Florida or wherever. They would have the haves and have nots same as Mexico and other nations where capitalism reigns in Latin America. Which is better than the socialist hell that Xog thinks should be imploded as soon as possible.

Unfortunately, most puppet dictators are people who are without real principles in this life Xog. They are out for themselves, if they were ethical leaders with nationalist interests putting the Cubans interests first above the interests of some other powerful country 90 miles off their shores? They would be bad material for puppet status. Got to get rid of the ones who actually are in the office to do some real work regarding the needs of Cubans for the Cubans.

So who is left to run the nation of Cuba? There would be no Cuban revolution if the Cubans were happy with the status quo back in the 1950s. They were not happy with Fulgencio Batista. You can argue all day long, that Fidel Castro sucks, and he is a dictator and he is the fucking Devil with flaming hair forever. The Cubans went for backing Castro over Batista and the USA sent people over there to see what could be negotiated with him in regards to profits and control of Cuba. It would have been easy to have another Batista type man who just said YES to the Yanks. From the very beginning. Just say yes, collect a lot of money and have them run the entire island from afar like before. It did not happen. Why? Because Fidel Castro was a nationalist person. Cuba first, Cuba second, Cuba third. He admired a lot of things about the USA. But he was not going to let the USA government tell him what to do in Cuba. Batista was a puppet and he had defeated the puppet. He wanted to be in charge of the future of Cuba without the USA thinking they can make all the decisions of import. The USA made a series of blunders and instead of negotiating with Castro some liberalistic compromise they thought he was not easy to manipulate and needed to be ousted. But doing that directly at that point was problematic so they sent in the badly backed Bay of Pigs invasion. That failed.

Now, we can go on with the Cuban Missile Crisis and Nikita Krushev and so on. Let us skip that part.

We are now in 2023. The embargo has been tightened for the foreseeable future. Cubans leave to other nations especially the young professionals like XogGyux here. For many reasons. They leave because they can't be doctors and buy normal consumer goods like new washing machines, stoves, little cars, and clothes and furniture that is in decent shape. They rarely can get things done without waiting in line. They have to go and chop sugar cane or do some agricultural brigada work for free or a tiny sum. Everything is a struggle and the entire society is set up to spy on each other and to live in fear of speaking out or trying to change the conditions. The dissenting party is hard to organize.

Why doesn't the USA just invade and kill the entire Cuban government and dismantle it today? I can imagine the reasons why Xog, can you? Figure out why that is not being done?

The other alternative is to re-establish normal trade relations with Cuba and allow a series of talks. Things started to look up with Obama there for a bit. But that was pulled quick by the Miami Republican Cuban exile crowd in Dade County and environs and Trump did not give a shit about if Cubans were suffering or not. The important thing is he lives in Florida and the Canosa Mas crowd is powerful as a lobby.

Cuba has been adapting to their isolation economic, social and communication blackout, for about six to six and a half decades. The youth on the island do not remember life under a party that is not the Cuban one in power right now.

The American government keeps saying it is about human rights and lack of free speech and oppression and that is why the embargo has to stay in place. But? the USA has normal trade relationships with the PRC, and Vietnam and other socialist and communist leaning nations. And they also have normal trade relationships with super human rights violator nations. Including UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Francisco Franco's Spain, Straussner's Paraguay and the list goes on. Why is Cuba such a problem? It is about a bad example. None of us little island nations who were once their little toys and playgrounds have a right to DISSENT from what they want. At all. If they actually get some improvements and do it without the USA's approval but without the USA controlling everything from afar? All the rest of those shithole banana republics that are full of some third world poverty stricken dark inferior people will be out of their control and they will not be able to guarantee the raw materials for the USA's future and they won't be able to flood those markets to sell all those 500 million young Latinos billions of dollars and so on cell phones, and all the other shit they sell all over the world to make a profit off of that market. Got to have them as the example of fleeing people, collapsed economies, no freedom of speech, doctors sent to hellholes in Africa and working for nothing while their families are held hostage watched by the paranoid government Communist system of enforcement over there...

Corruption is rampant with black market goods...the Cuban failure. Look? You either do what we tell you to do? Or you wind up with NOTHING.

The Cuban government can always call DC and tell them, [We are tired of the deprivation of goods, and services, lack of real infrastructure investments and our buildings in Havana are breaking down. People on leaky life boats going off to the Keys, and drowning, and the youth thinking they can't get anywhere here....just come in, and take over. We can't run this country. We are incompetent and corrupt. Only you guys are not corrupt and competent. Come on in!!}

The USA is not without their own set of corruption, lies and anti democratic problems. Can you compare the two nations? No. Because one was a rapacious Empire who has a different set of historical circumstances, cultural legacies and histories and economic development trajectories.

What you should be evaluating XogGyux, is to serve in your best capacity as you are now. As a doctor in Florida and as a US citizen and as a Cuban American immigrant young man. Who wants a future for everyone to be better. For the Cubans left behind and the Cubans in the USA. Reconciliation.

I do not have illusions like you do about the USA being superior and a better system than all the other ex Empires in history. I am another thinker than you are darling. I saw too many pieces of old Empires who all thought they were the exception to the rule and ruling nations from afar was something that would never end. They all end badly.

Humans want to be free and they want to be able to make decisions that affect their own group in a way that is mutually beneficial. Otherwise peace is not possible.

For me the USA Congress keeps avoiding their unjust actions. Until they start realizing that we are not their fucking backyard and they can't dictate to us what the fuck is convenient for them to dictate to us and not what WE need to do for our own futures and not for theirs only?

No progress will be happening.

[XogGyux]

I think all societies have to be measured according to the conditions that the people live under Xog.

Exactly, and by that measurement Cuba is a dump.

There are achievements that Cuba has done that are good.

Such as what? How to destroy a country. I pass.

That is a fact. Why is there violence in Mexico?

Tanari, there is violence everywhere. We are savage animals that happen to live in cities and drive cars. Our animal behaviors didn't completely disappear, and the countries that tend to have a decent balance they are mostly the more developed nations of Europe, Australia, japan, the US and Canada. To a lesser degree Mexico, chile, Argentina, south korea and a couple more.

That is a fact. Why is there violence in Mexico?

So what? I got over it, honestly, I don't care. That's the past, and the past is ugly, and it is ugly EVERYWHERE. Those Europeans that conquered the Americas were in turn descended from conquered territory from the Roman empire. Tanari, it is time to move forward and not backward.

I can put in quotes of what the politicians in Washington DC were discussing at the time that the Spanish American war was raging. They wanted sugar. Sugar and power. Expansion.

Again... so what? How is a quasi-imperialist from one and a half-century ago justify that Cubans today have to live and die in misery because of a dynasty of Castro and a handful of plutocratic, corrupt liars? At least in the US, the liars in power live and let live... in cuba, the liars in power live and fuck the rest.

In a historical context Cuba was a jewel in the crown. For their ambitions. It would be a quick war...and they would be able to set the conditions of how to run Cuba from afar. From Washington. You must remember that US foreign policy in Latin America has never been about mutually beneficial relationships But about one way dominant imperial relationships.

I don't see how this is relevant.

For different reasons sure....but we agree it is not working well as is. It caused insularity in Cuba.

Well i think that was the point. It worked at what it was supposed to do, the problem is that it did not change the view of the Cuban's government not created a situation for rebellion. Lifting the embargo is fine with me, in fact I hope it is done so that those assholes in charge cannot keep complaining about that is the reason they are a failure... hopefully open the eye of the cuban people that the goverment is the reason why they are a failure... but I am sure the government will find a way to blame it on the US regardless, so I don't have my hopes up.

Where Cuba has been in a serious disadvantage commercially with other nations in the Americas.

Cuba is at a serious disadvantage commercially because they are bankrupt. Nobody wants to trade with people that have no money and no goods to sell.

Cuba had two choices. Just have a puppet dictator of the US banks and sugar centrales and who controlled electricity, and infrastructure projects in Cuba and let the USA decide who to trade with, and who got power or not in Cuba. Just let them run Cuba and decide all major economic and political decisions in Cuba. If another Batista came along? Good. Just as long as he said yes to the powerful actors there in Washington DC. That was their policy by the way for all of Central America and if you study the history of Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica and Panama and Nicaragua, it is a history of total manipulation by all of the Central American nations that favor the US business and military elite. There is no controversy about that at all.

You are right, how could I be so dumb... an oppressive dictatorship for 60 years in which the people progressively lost more and more rights and became more and more of a 2nd class citizen is better. Please.
Tell me... under what regime the following laws/regulations belong. The options are Batista or Castro.
Cubans cannot enter hotels, thats reserved for foreign tourists.
Cubans cannot have internet
Cubans cannot kill their own cow and eat it. However ok for the goverment to kill it and serve it to the tourist (e.i. this is not to protect the cow).
Cubans cannot buy or sell their cars or houses
Cubans cannot leave their country
Cubans are slaves of their country and minors are put to work on a potato field and doctors are sent to practice slave medicine in a 3rd world country for the sake of propaganda and money.
Piss off, I'll take my puppet goverment and enjoy it. I rather have a puppet goverment that is corrupt in traditional manners than this repressive neo-slavery nonsense that is going on on cuba. You are so focused on labels "puppet", "colonialism" that you miss the elephant in the room. What matters is not who is in charge, and who is ultimately controlling the strings. What matters is results, and how your people live. If martians come to our planet and start a neo-colonization that improves the lives of humans, their access to food, to energy, to education, peace... i don't fucking care if the world's goverment serve as puppet masters to the martians. Better is better.

Unfortunately, most puppet dictators are people who are without real principles in this life Xog.

And most dictators don't have them either, or when they do they don't care to put them to work.

There would be no Cuban revolution if the Cubans were happy with the status quo back in the 1950s.

You know that is not true. The fact that some people don't rebel does not mean the society as a whole is happy or that the system is good and just. North Korea is a prime example. Likewise, rebellions can happen in otherwise cohesive and peaceful countries via the influence of various forces, including external forces. But even under your premise... what happened then does not justify what happens now. Hittler won democratically and destroyed europe. Lenin and Mao let revolutions... look how it ended up. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. The fact that Fidel fought a despot dictator does not make Fidel more friendly or less of a dictator himself.

Why doesn't the USA just invade and kill the entire Cuban government and dismantle it today? I can imagine the reasons why Xog, can you? Figure out why that is not being done?

Because you think the USA gives a fuck about Cuba... It doesnt. Cuba is a speck... politically, militarily, economically, demographically. The US only gives a crap when 1. Nukes are being installed there. 2. Dictator is stealing american companies. 3. Immigrants are entering the US. #2 is not happening again since there is nothing left to steal. #1 is highly unlikely to happen again, but who knows with china and russia.... #3 is the only reason the US would even care for anything about cuba. Politicians care for other reasons, the cuban vote in miami. That is the only thing that can move the needle because cuba is mostly meaningless.

The American government keeps saying it is about human rights and lack of free speech and oppression and that is why the embargo has to stay in place. But? the USA has normal trade relationships with the PRC, and Vietnam and other socialist and communist leaning nations. And they also have normal trade relationships with super human rights violator nations.

Let's be clear. Human rights is only a secondary issue, it has always been. Oil? China? happy to look to the other side. Is it right? No, but this is a world problem, the US is not unique on any of this shit. Cuba does not seem to mind China's abuses either... or russia's. Nobody really does anything. The US uses it mostly as a scapegoat when other factors already made the decision for them.

The USA is not without their own set of corruption, lies and anti democratic problems.

Yes! but at least there is a live and let live. There is corruption, but you can still make your life and not be too bothered by that. That is the difference that people don't get. In Cuba, there is corruption, but you are also suffocated out of any aspirations to change your life. In the US you can just ignore all that crap, you don't even have to vote or engage in politics, if all you want is to have your life, you can. In cuba, most cubans are quasi-slaves of their system, prisoners for life of an endless system of corruption and misery.

What you should be evaluating XogGyux, is to serve in your best capacity as you are now. As a doctor in Florida and as a US citizen and as a Cuban American immigrant young man. Who wants a future for everyone to be better. For the Cubans left behind and the Cubans in the USA. Reconciliation.

I honestly don't care that much for what happens there. Seriously, I don't have any immediate family there anymore and lost contact with my old friends from school since internet in cuba just became a thing recently so I was already out of contact for over a decade by the time people started getting a bit of internet. All of that to say that I don't have a particular, cuban-specific hope for the country. I have the general sense of "i wish them well" as I do for puerto ricans, chileans or Somali people. As a fellow human being, I want them to do well for themselves, but I don't have a nationalistic hope for cuba. My main driver to post in here is to dispel the fantasies that some people keep in their head about cuba.
When politicians start using cuba for fear-mongering, and then other politicians start defending cuba for their "accomplishment" my reaction is that both of them are stupid assholes. 1... the one using it for fear-mongering is committing a serious act of misrepresenting cuba... the sort of "socialism" that goes into advanced capitalistic countries (European, nordic, etc) which is usually about some basic social safety nets vs cuba which is an opressive dictatorship that takes advantage of its people for the benefit of the ruling class. On the other hand, when the leftist try to make an argument and defends cuba's goverment, I vomit a little bit in my mouth... because why would they be defending said oppressive dictatorship? At the end of the day, they are both wrongs... the cuban's system should indeed be feared, and if at any point I felt that the US was going in that direction I'd be the first one to sound the alarms! (fear not, that is not even remotely within the realm of possibilities). When Michael Moore (and characters like him) travel to cuba to make documentaries about how great cuba is... I want to to slap him on the face... the asshole is worth 30million dollars, how about he takes 25million of his net worth and buy a bunch of people to feed in africa or something, he can still be a millionaire with 5 million... instead he is praising the lie of the opressive tyranic goverment and spreading its nonsense. People like this need to shut the fuck up, Cuba is not a place to imitate but a cautionary tale of what not to do.

I do not have illusions like you do about the USA being superior and a better system than all the other ex Empires in history.

But it is.

I saw too many pieces of old Empires who all thought they were the exception to the rule and ruling nations from afar was something that would never end.

We are all pieces of old empires. The US was a colony of great Britain...
Neither you nor I lived or live in an imperial age... that ended up almost a century ago. And the ambers that you see sprout from time to time... they are not America's.... Russia is trying to annex crimea today... when was the last time the US annexed anything? You think the US cannot grab a carrier battle group and take over all Caribbean island if they wished? They could the same way you can flick an ant off your hand. If you had read the book that you recommended me, you'd realize why the US is not interested in that... we can trade, we can get all we want with trade. Empires and colonies existed because empires couldn't get all they wanted... so they needed to grab other people's shit by force so they could get what they wanted. They wanted cotton and sugar? sure lets get a bunch of land in america and put some Africans to get it for us. But that is not needed anymore, it is actually anti-economic to go to war for goods or resources. Russia is finding that the hard way.
America is certainly better than any empire that came before it. By any measure available. The US respects the life of its citizen (and frankly also everybody else) that either the british, spanish, french, russian, othoman, roman, egyptian, aztec, incan, mayan, persian, chinese, japanese empires before. If you disagree, it is simple, just tell me which one was better and we can discuss it.

[Politics_Observer]

@XogGyux

I don't know how violent Cuba is. I agree that people have a savage animal side to them that can be violent. However, I will also say that poverty does breed more crime and violence given that more people in poverty turn to crime to get paid since doing honest work doesn't pay. So if Cuba is a violent place and it has a lot of poverty, then poverty might be a major contributing factor to the violence there.

[QatzelOk]

I don't know how violent Cuba is.

There are statistics out there, like the one I posted above from Statistica.

Out of the world's 50 most violent cities, 38 are in Latin America including 17 in Mexico.

Also, from the same "most violent cities on earth" statistics, of the 50 worst most dangerous cities to live in:

17 are in Mexico
10 are in Brazil
7 are in the United States of America
6 are in Columbia

(45 out of 50 are in the post-genocide countries of the Americas)

So being killed in your city apears to be a Monroe Doctrine thing. And with urban violence, a lot of social progress becomes impossible. Florida has the worst stats for pedestrian death in the USA, and has virtually no bicycle infrastructure despite being flat and snow-free. Car and oil companies have made all the urbanism decisions there for the last 70 years.

Are Florida's roads 'dangerous by design?'

TALLAHASSEE – If you are about to cross a major Florida highway, you might want to carefully check the traffic. And then double-check because you are about to enter one of the most dangerous pedestrian zones in the country....

***

...that is why you are in Canada because in Canada you can have stuff.

No. I was born in English Canada, and moved to French Canada for entirely social reasons.

I have never met a person in the USA that was latter murdered. In Cuba our neighbor 3 houses down the street got killed in his own house. I have never known a person in the USA that has been or has later been on a train de-railment, in cuba

In the suburbs, people don't meet people. End of story. And *a lack of train derailments in the USA* is currently NOT trending.

I honestly don't care that much for what happens there.

Or anywhere else except in your suburban castle and single-occupant car? Bravo for developing morbid callousness like everyone else in suburbia.

Cuba escaped from the clutches of American fascism... just as car companies were moving all their lemmings to single-family bungalows and destroying communites and landscapes. Florida is known for these two things - lack of community and destroyed landscapes, pedestrian deaths and dummy politics of me-myself-and-I.

I care about what happens everywhere.

[XogGyux]

No. I was born in English Canada, and moved to French Canada for entirely social reasons.

It is still Canada, a developed and rich country. Why aren't you going to live in the amazon jungle or something as a hunter-gatherer... that is what you seem to advocate. Or perhaps go join the Hamish, they don't use much technology.... oh that's right, the wouln't want you there because of your sexual orientation. How about russia, they'll like you... oh no... they are justifying a whole genocidal thing because of the west's aberrations.
You seem to have a proclivity for justifying the insane oppression of just about everyone else that hates you. How about that? And the irony! If you lived in any of those places you would probably be silenced... the only reason you can even say as much nonsense as you normally do is because you are in a free country and still complain about it.

In the suburbs, people don't meet people. End of story. And *a lack of train derailments in the USA* is currently NOT trending.

Maybe you don't because you are a weird person.

Or anywhere else except in your suburban castle and single-occupant car?

About Cuba, an ex-Cuban wrote:

Again, taking things out of context. No, I don't have a singular particular care for cuban. As I said earlier, i care for cubans as much as I do with everyone else. I don't give particular care to cubans because I just happened to be born there. There is no some weird bond that forms when you are born with your fellow nationals. Those sort of sentiments of nationalism are indoctrinated by the nation and I resisted as much indoctrination as possible. Nationalism is a form of xenophobia. If you live in cuba, you cannot walk 2 blocks without seeing advertisement, banners, pamphlets and all sort of estate-published media trying to portray the US as some sort of imperialistic monster. The reality is far less sinister, the US hardly cares. Outside of FL, I'd be surprised if 50% of americans can put their finger in cuba if they are shown a map, some might even think they are part of mexico and others think cuba is in africa or the middle east. Americans hardly care, and it is understandable because cuba is inconsequential to the lives of most americans. Obama tried really hard to extend an olive branch, and he was swatted away swiftly by the cuban goverment... decades will pass before any other politician even dares to do the same thing. The Cuban government is prideful to a fault, they will allow having their country to wither in a cancerous dictatorship before they admit any fault, and they will get their wish.

Or anywhere else except in your suburban castle and single-occupant car? Bravo for developing morbid callousness like everyone else in suburbia.

yayayayaya suburbia yayayayaya cars yayayayayay suburbia yayayayaya cars.
You are like a broken record.

Cuba escaped from the clutches of American fascism... just as car companies were moving all their lemmings to single-family bungalows and destroying communites and landscapes. Florida is known for these two things - lack of community and destroyed landscapes, pedestrian deaths and dummy politics of me-myself-and-I.

You've got to be fucking kidding me.
If you trust Cuba's numbers, and again, you've got to take whatever nonsense they tell you with a grain of salt, they had 8.5 fatalities due to car accidents per 100,000 inhabitants. That might compare favorable to the ~12 of the US, but it is actually worse than that for other countries such as Canada ~6, UK ~3, Germany ~4. In fact, most western countries beat cuba rather hamsonly, the US is a bit of an outliner. But that is only half of the story... as each of these countries have MILLIONs of cars in their roads, with much higher speeds, and highways, etc... cuba has very few cars, so their accident rate per automobile in the road is many orders of magnitude higher than any western country, including the US. It is hard to come by with accurate statistics for cuba. A report from 2004 estimate that there were around 170K cars on the roads... or about 0.015 cars per person, which is pathetic. Even if you assume since 2004, they got way more cars, lets say an even quarter of a million cars, 250k cars... That still means that they have 0.004 accidents per car in the roads. For comparison, the number for the US is 0.00015, in other words, Cuba has 27x more fatalities due to car accidents per car in the road than the US... who is already pretty shitty when it comes to car accidents. If you compare to Canada, Cuba has 80x as many fatalities per car as Canada does. An estimate of cars fatalities in cuba puts the number between 750 on the lower end 1124 on the higher end. The 750 is what cuba reports, but nobody believes them so the estimates are higher. For convenience sake I chose an even 1000 for the math to be easier and because that was in 2016 and after nearly a decade the numbers are likely higher.
How many accidents in canada? 1745, larger number EH? Well, canada has more than x3 as many people and as many as 140 times as many cars on their roads. From any angle you look at it, cuba is an utter failure. They old cars that are neither green, economic nor safe. When you get into a car accident on your 2020 honda civic you got airbags and seatbelts to protect you, the car might have automatic breaking for accident mitigation, there are crumpling zones to allow for the vehicle to deform in a very specific way allowing for doors to still open in the case of an accident but also cushioning the impact for the benefit of both pedestrian and passengers. Once the accident has occurred, within seconds or minutes the authorities are alerted and you get a myriad of trained professionals that can offer immediate assistance in the road. They can stabilize wounds, intubate patients whose airways have been compromised by fire, smoke or trauma and they can give you medication right there in the road to keep your blood pressure and circulatory stability. They will quickly take you to a close by hospital where you will get further stabilization or if needed they could take you on a helicopter to a trauma center that will try to save your life. When you crash in cuba.... you have to see if you can stop another motorist to see if he/she is good enough of a person to take you to the hospital, a hospital that might ask you to bring medical supplies

I care about what happens everywhere.

Ironically that is what I said, when you quoted me out of context. Remember I said I care about Cubans as much as I care about Puertoricans or Somali....
Furthermore, I call your bluff, you don't care about anything outside of your bubble of fantasy. You care about everywhere? Why do you sound so apologetic in favor of mr Putin, the genocidal maniac killing Ukrainians on an imperialistic war? Apparently the US is fascist, but the russians are not. When was the last time that the US invaded a country to annex its territory? If you really squint really hard you might say Marshall islands, over half a century ago after WWII, but that is really stretching it, given that the Japanse were the ones that attacked the US first and the US occupied it after to project power in the area. If you squint even further, perhaps you can say the Maine event at the end of the 19 century that lead to the spanish-american war. There is no recent time in which the US has invaded a country to annex its territory... you know, what the Russians are doing now and what you find very worthy of your defense and apologies.
While I am not under the impression that the US is a particularly innocent cuddly bunny, at least I am pragmatic enough to see what is really going on, rather than making up shit as you go. Want to talk about facist imperialist regimes? Talk about Russia and China, they are the real fascists. The US is overly self-serving but fascists it is not.

[XogGyux]

This is how traffic safety goes in cuba.
https://www.sarkis.com/img/pixel.gif
A large flatbed truck, full of adolescents in the back. That is how a large accident where dozens of kids got injured/dead in the school that I attended. They where sent to do hard labor in the countryside... because you know the government wants free labor from kids... but there is nothing, no transport. What do they use? An old russian truck with a flatbread and full of rusted pieces, one of them breaks, the flatbread opened in the middle of the road and a bunch of kids fall to the road from a moving truck. And then I have to hear the incessant whining of this guy complaining of traffic deaths in the US and how Cuba has it so much better. Go take a hike, and stay there... forever.

[QatzelOk]

This is how traffic safety goes in cuba.
https://www.sarkis.com/img/pixel.gif
A large flatbed truck, full of adolescents in the back. That is how a large accident where dozens of kids got injured/dead in the school that I attended. They where sent to do hard labor in the countryside... because you know the government wants free labor from kids... but there is nothing, no transport. What do they use? An old russian truck with a flatbread and full of rusted pieces, one of them breaks, the flatbread opened in the middle of the road and a bunch of kids fall to the road from a moving truck. And then I have to hear the incessant whining of this guy complaining of traffic deaths in the US and how Cuba has it so much better. Go take a hike, and stay there... forever.

I just got back from Cuba, and there were four people killed in a tractor accident after a party while I was there. On the same roads where I was cycling every day.

And the recent five-month drought meant that there were virtually no fruits,and very limited vegetables.

The blocade is working in that it hasn't allowed Cuba to develop a functionning trade economy in 60 years. You must be so proud of this accomplishment of your adopted country.

[XogGyux]

I just got back from Cuba, and there were four people killed in a tractor accident after a party while I was there. On the same roads where I was cycling every day.

And the recent five-month drought meant that there were virtually no fruits,and very limited vegetables.

The blocade is working in that it hasn't allowed Cuba to develop a functionning trade economy in 60 years. You must be so proud of this accomplishment of your adopted country.

I am sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, this is not a rare event in Cuba nor am I surprised at all. Only way we cubans would find out about tragedies like that it would be because it happened to close friends or family because the government would keep things like this very quiet. Maybe with the introduction of the internet and social media, this has lessened but I am sure the government does its best to keep the appearance of success.
I have been pretty clear since the begining of this thread, years ago, that I do not support the Cuba Sanctions by the US. Therefore, your claim that I must be proud of them working is a complete nonsense. I do not agree with your assessments of what they do or what they don't but I don't support them, never had. More than sanctions, the problem with cuba is their goverment itself. Economic growth has been stifled by their own government by preventing any sort of private enterprise and by ensuring that any business scheme's profits are very limited and/or havily "taxed" by the goverment. The goverment created a system of underground/illegal/black-market economy that really cannot sustain the country.
For instance. Back when I was still in cuba, the single most profitable thing that someone over there could do within the legal confines was to acquire a license to rent part of your house to toursits. For instance, tourists would stay in a bedroom that you are not using and they would pay you $15-40 depending on the location, amenities, etc. The goverment would take a massive chunk of the profits and would constantly harass these people.
For instance, a lady that lived in the top floor of my apartment building had a 4 bedroom apartment. She had a license to rent one bedroom. Back then, she would have to pay $200USD/month, wether she rented the appartment or not, or wether she could get her regular rate for the room or not. And then on top of that she would have to pay other various fees for paperwork, inspections, etc. She could only rent her appartment for $20, sometimes $25 during the "high season." But that is only half the story because she would have to spend some $$ to upkeep her apartment/amenities maintained and at a reasonable level of comfort for tourists that are not used to the same degree of "sacrifice" that cubans are... so after expenditures on maintenance, cleaning, electricity (tourists like AC), etc... she could only keep a small portion of her already not-so-great fortune. So what does she end up doing? Well, she get the license for renting 1 room, but then she starts paying the inspectors great sums of money under the table because now she rents not 1 room, but all 3. She and her family (husband and son) all three get set up on the 4th bedroom of the apartment. This apartment complex was built just before the revolution and was a luxury complex so it had a 4th bedroom behind the kitchen, smaller in size with also a very tiny bathroom that was intended to be used for a servant (the kitchen had an independent entrance to the house so servants could function without disturbing the owners)... So now, this whole family is living under the conditions that a servant in 1950's would have lived. They are renting their whole apartment to tourists, they are serving tourists, they are leaving in their own apartments as servants, they are paying great fees to the government and they are participating in illegal activities by bribing inspectors. Of course, they are all living in fear all the time. The government could always change their mind and disrupt this arrangement, they could get caught and lose the apartment and/or go to jail, lose their renting license. But it doesnt stop there... despite the fact that by our standards they are not making a shitload of money... cubans generally don't make much money at all, so whatever this family is making, is already 10 if not 100 times as much as anyone else... so everyone else around them are envious that they have good income so they constantly have to live looking over their shoulders frigthened that a neightboor or the lady from the CDR or someone else would whistle blow on them. None of this is the bloqueo, none... this is all self inflicted by the goverment on its people. This and 100x stories like this, all the time, constantly. The embargo does not even apply to food, so if cuba has problem with drought they could get fruits and vegetables from a neightboor or even the US itself, the US already exports food to cuba .
Yeah, I think the embargo should be lifted... but not for the reasons you think. The cuban goverment propaganda shields itself of its own failures by citing the embargo... it is bamboozling its people and naive foreigns alike and distracting of the very real failures of the cuban system. When Obama extended a hand, rather than embrace it and move forward, they started this dance back and forth. The US politics regarding cuba are very hard to navigate... you have a very spiteful population of cuban-americans in miami that are important in national elections as FL is a state that can potentially switch sides. The cuban goverment alienated all the people fleeing from them, virtually insuring that when the US maintains a hostile policy towards cuba. It is almost ganranteed that cuba will have to change significantly before the US finally warms to their goverment. Whether you think it is fair or not, you cannot remain actively hostile against your neighbor that is 1000x more powerful and expect good results. Cuba was artificially kept alive by the USSR system, once that collapsed they should have seen the writing on the wall. But this is the problem with dictatorships, as long as the dictator is comfortable and can keep its power... they don't ultimately care for their people. Can you believe this? That my neightboor is considered "lucky" for living like a servant in her own appartment, letting strangers from other countries stay in her own house and cattering to them? All so that this family can bribe inspectors and live in constant fear of being caught, having fines, losing the apartment, going to jail? This is what we cubans used to call a "lucky person"... This is what pro-cuba tourists like yourself call a "very warm and accommodating family that allowed me to stay with them". I am sorry, you might be a very cool dude and not pose a danger to anyone... but you cannot ignore that allowing hundreds of strangers to come in/out of your house is safe... Tourists go to cuba during vacations... they drink a lot... cuban alcohol is cheap, very cheap. Tourists hire prostitutes, etc. She lives (or at least used to live back when I was in cuba) in her own apartment as a servant to tourists that get drunk and bring prostitutes to her own house... meanwhile she and her husband are staying with her kid inside a tiny room that was meant to be to accomodate the aids of rich people.
I am sorry, but if you don't see how fucking dystopic this, then I really don't care too much for your assessments. All of this is created by the government, does not have anything to do with the embargo.
And this was not limited to her case either. My uncle's family used to have a paladar... basically a make-believe restaurant in your own home. Back then, the licenses for paladar were limited to having 12 chairs to feed people. So 3x tables of 4 people. Basically all paladars would break this rule, you cannot rule a restaurant, even a make belief one with just 3 tables. So the exorbitant fees that the government would charge you to have your license would also need extra $$ to bribe the inspectors. Now you are running a restaurant in your own house... except your 1950's consumer-ready house's kitchen is not designed to feed dozens of people per hour. This is a fucking fire hazzard, and even when it is not a fire hazzard what about ventilation? It is your private home.. your family, your children live there... you might not care about burning gas and breathing the smoke when you cook 1x time/day but if you are doing it 12h+/day in an old, poorly ventilated, poorly equiped consumer-grade kitchen this is not really healthy at all. This is dangerous...
Their government is its people's worse enemy in Cuba.
So no, I am not proud of what you witnessed there. I am sorry for other Cubans. I never supported the embargo and I have made it clear before, but this is not the embargo's fault anyway. It is the government's fault. 6 decades of stifled decadence, degradation, shame for its people.

[QatzelOk]

The embargo does not even apply to food, so if cuba has problem with drought they could get fruits and vegetables from a neightboor or even the US itself, the US already exports food to cuba ..

No, but the embargo has hobbled Cuba's ability to earn money off of millions of American tourists, or to develop a trade network with its neighbors. This is why Cuba can't simply import more food when there is a drought.

The USA has been choking its import-export economy for 60 years.

But now that the USA's sanctions have expanded to include half the world, Cuba may find itself in the majority of the world's population, and that might change things somewhat.

What would you do if the USA economy collapses this year and China refuses to export anything to the USA because it has no money to pay for anything? Will you be posting more LOL emojis for your own misery?

[XogGyux]

No, but the embargo has hobbled Cuba's ability to earn money off of millions of American tourists, or to develop a trade network with its neighbors. This is why Cuba can't simply import more food when there is a drought.

The USA has been choking its import-export economy for 60 years.

But now that the USA's sanctions have expanded to include half the world, Cuba may find itself in the majority of the world's population, and that might change things somewhat.

What would you do if the USA economy collapses this year and China refuses to export anything to the USA because it has no money to pay for anything? Will you be posting more LOL emojis for your own misery?

The Cuban government far more at fault for stifling its own economy than the US is. It took them decades to even allow some minimal private enterprises. The state-owned business are and have always been a pyramid of people stealing as much as they possibly can.
Cuba stole property owned by US business, planted a bunch of nukes that belonged to the US's #1 enemy and has remained actively hostile since the revolution. The existence of sanctions are therefore not surprising at all. Every attempt that has occured to thaw the relationships, the cuban goverment has slapped it down.

[QatzelOk]

The Cuban government far more at fault for stifling its own economy than the US is.

You've already regurgitated this.

It's like saying that the cop that has his knee on your neck for 60 years is not responsible for choking you to death. It's all those gold chains, right (har-har, aren't you funny).

It's so easy to piss on poor people who are being choked to death, not so easy to admit that you have gleefully jumped into bed with the chokers.

[XogGyux]

You've already regurgitated this.

It's like saying that the cop that has his knee on your neck for 60 years is not responsible for choking you to death. It's all those gold chains, right (har-har, aren't you funny).

It's so easy to piss on poor people who are being choked to death, not so easy to admit that you have gleefully jumped into bed with the chokers.

The Cuban government is the one both Pissing AND Making the Cuban people poor.