Cuba has proven that capitalism and technology are failures - Page 89 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15112468
XogGyux wrote:I did not imply that discrimination against orientales was a race thing.

You didn't say very much.

In every nation on earth, city people make fun of country folk, and vice versa.

But under capitalism, people with different racial characteristics have different freedoms and different life expectancy. That is what the Cuban revolution was about changing.

But people are still free to make fun of each other's accents and customs, just like everywhere else.
(except a few college dorms full of Karens in Massachussets)

fucking... crap... shit... don't understand shit ... next time that you are about to say something stupid,...

You post like a terrorist who has no respect for other people. Cuba is glad you're not there anymore. :lol:
#15112470
^ And I thought you were all for listening to actual Latin Americans, and particularly Cubans, about their views on Latin America and Cuba in particular.

@XogGyux what's the reason for needing permits to move to Habana from other cities? Is it just economic/part of central planning? Were those restrictions in place before the Revolution or they are one of its subproducts?
#15112472
wat0n wrote:^ And I thought you were all for listening to actual Latin Americans, and particularly Cubans, about their views on Latin America and Cuba in particular.

@XogGyux what's the reason for needing permits to move to Habana from other cities? Is it just economic/part of central planning? Were those restrictions in place before the Revolution or they are one of its subproducts?

I am not familiar with the intricacies of the policies and factors but my understanding that this came about when the immigration to the city was highest in part due to the worsening economic situation of the 1980's and early 1990's and the government just went with what appeared to be the simplest solution of all, rather than address the problems that caused these migrations they went with bans and deportations.
The irony is that Fidel was from Oriente :lol: .
Eventually they made some rules to allow certain people to come to the city. In particular to do jobs that people from havana did not like to do such as police or teacher. Why people didn't like to do police? well because of the "snitch" stench. Cuba is a country in which everything is done illegally. You rent your apartment to tourists illegally, you sell food to tourists illegally, you connect to the internet illegally, you buy beef illegally (some things might have changed in recent years due to the small increase of freedoms, but this was certainly the case when I left). So imagine this situation... people that most habaneros already don't like, which have "funny" accents, performing a job that nobody in the city wants to do, and that job gives them certain power over you. That is a recipe for disaster if you ask me.
With teachers was a similar situation. In my beca, my last year before I came to the US, they started a program and brought thousands of teachers from oriente to teach in la habana. They never got an ounce of respect from the students. I am ashamed to say I was one of those students that publically bullied and shamed an adult woman. I was 15-16, I didn't know better. I made fun of her accent, I made fun of her absurd loyalty to the system, I made fun of the shit way that she had to live in la Habana (because they didn't own houses there, usually they were given a bed in some sort of communal living space, their whole aspiration was that after x amount of years, they could be eligible for some shitty 1-2 bedroom badly made place and they would then be able to move their whole family to the capital. This of course was a super rare occurrence. One of my friend's family spent 20y+ awaiting one of these unicorn apartments).
#15112475
XogGyux wrote:I am not familiar with the intricacies of the policies and factors but my understanding that this came about when the immigration to the city was highest in part due to the worsening economic situation of the 1980's and early 1990's and the government just went with what appeared to be the simplest solution of all, rather than address the problems that caused these migrations they went with bans and deportations.
The irony is that Fidel was from Oriente :lol: .
Eventually they made some rules to allow certain people to come to the city. In particular to do jobs that people from havana did not like to do such as police or teacher. Why people didn't like to do police? well because of the "snitch" stench. Cuba is a country in which everything is done illegally. You rent your apartment to tourists illegally, you sell food to tourists illegally, you connect to the internet illegally, you buy beef illegally (some things might have changed in recent years due to the small increase of freedoms, but this was certainly the case when I left). So imagine this situation... people that most habaneros already don't like, which have "funny" accents, performing a job that nobody in the city wants to do, and that job gives them certain power over you. That is a recipe for disaster if you ask me.
With teachers was a similar situation. In my beca, my last year before I came to the US, they started a program and brought thousands of teachers from oriente to teach in la habana. They never got an ounce of respect from the students. I am ashamed to say I was one of those students that publically bullied and shamed an adult woman. I was 15-16, I didn't know better. I made fun of her accent, I made fun of her absurd loyalty to the system, I made fun of the shit way that she had to live in la Habana (because they didn't own houses there, usually they were given a bed in some sort of communal living space, their whole aspiration was that after x amount of years, they could be eligible for some shitty 1-2 bedroom badly made place and they would then be able to move their whole family to the capital. This of course was a super rare occurrence. One of my friend's family spent 20y+ awaiting one of these unicorn apartments).


Thanks for your perspective! It's always interesting to hear what actual Cubans have to say.

One last question, when did you move out of Cuba?
#15112545
QatzelOk wrote:But under capitalism, people with different racial characteristics have different freedoms and different life expectancy. That is what the Cuban revolution was about changing.


There is no equality. Not two humans are alike. The only exception is twin siblings. Different outcomes is the norm. White people earn different levels of income in the USA according to the nationality of ancestors.
#15112581
XogGyux wrote:The irony is that Fidel was from Oriente

It's not ironic at all.

It's true that Cuba is careful to limit the population of its capital city to 2 million people. But there are very good reasons for this that don't have anything to do with "funny accents."

In the Caribbean, Cuba has one of the lowest percentages of its population living in the capital city. Just one fifth of Cubans live in Havana - versus a third the people of Dominican Republic living in the capital, or half of Puero Rico living in their capital.

Why is this?

It is because, like Vietnam and other countries that moved away from pure-mafia capitalism, the government recognized the allure of "becoming a whore or criminal" in the capital city where both illicit money and mafia can be found.

So the lack of a huge population in Havana is due to the careful planning of the government, and not due to any kind of racism, as you suggest.

In rich, capitalist countries, we may soon find out that we've "stored" too many people in our large cities very soon. When this happens (it will happen), we will recognize the wisdom of this element of the Cuban revolution, and many others.

De-concentrate urban parasitism in order to create more effective farming and more dynamic regional centers.

To the revolutionary leadership, the tiempo muerto, urbanisation and Havana's primacy resulted from Cuba's incorporation into the colonial world economy.

‘Do you think that if we had had the possibility of starting to plan the entirety of this country, we would have overindulged ourselves with a city as big as Havana?’, Fidel Castro notably asked a crowd in Oriente Province in 1966.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... ore-reader
#15112586
QatzelOk wrote:It's not ironic at all.

It's true that Cuba is careful to limit the population of its capital city to 2 million people. But there are very good reasons for this that don't have anything to do with "funny accents."

In the Caribbean, Cuba has one of the lowest percentages of its population living in the capital city. Just one fifth of Cubans live in Havana - versus a third the people of Dominican Republic living in the capital, or half of Puero Rico living in their capital.

Why is this?

It is because, like Vietnam and other countries that moved away from pure-mafia capitalism, the government recognized the allure of "becoming a whore or criminal" in the capital city where both illicit money and mafia can be found.

So the lack of a huge population in Havana is due to the careful planning of the government, and not due to any kind of racism, as you suggest.

In rich, capitalist countries, we may soon find out that we've "stored" too many people in our large cities very soon. When this happens (it will happen), we will recognize the wisdom of this element of the Cuban revolution, and many others.

De-concentrate urban parasitism in order to create more effective farming and more dynamic regional centers.


https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... ore-reader

Dude do you even get tired of coming up with retarded ideas? WTF does any of this has to do with anything else... You are just making post hoc rationalizations, which ironically lack plenty of rationality.
US population: 300mil+, Washington DC metro area < 10mil. Far less than the 20% of Cuba which magically you associate with mafia. Under that logic, the US should be some sort of anti-mafia paradise....
Oh but what about other countries? Mexico 126M inhabitants, Mexico City 8million people and some change. That is what 6%... i bet Mexico is completely prostitute and mafia free.
You and your nonsense theories.

So the lack of a huge population in Havana is due to the careful planning of the government, and not due to any kind of racism, as you suggest.

I never said is due to racism, in fact in the very first post I said it wasn't. Xenophobia is more accurate term to describe this. Either way, it is discrimination.
Careful planning my ass. There is nothing in Cuba that is "careful planning".
Was it careful planning when they made the brilliant idea of putting secondary and highschool KIDS work in the countryside, basically as slaves/cheap labor?
Was it careful planning when stupid Fidel decimated the Beef producing cattle, trying to popularize "milk producing cows" which offcourse... due to climate/landscape issues were not the greatest there. He decimated an industry to the point that consuming beef in cuba became illegal. A tourist, you... could go to a restaurant and ask for a pallomilla.. Yet a cuban could not go to the grocery store and buy beef.
People in cuba bought/ate beef... illegally.... Getting caught with beef could very well be decades in prison... as if you had killed a person.
You don't come with this "careful planning" nonsense.
Last edited by XogGyux on 10 Aug 2020 16:38, edited 1 time in total.
#15112596
QatzelOk wrote:It's not ironic at all.

It's true that Cuba is careful to limit the population of its capital city to 2 million people. But there are very good reasons for this that don't have anything to do with "funny accents."

In the Caribbean, Cuba has one of the lowest percentages of its population living in the capital city. Just one fifth of Cubans live in Havana - versus a third the people of Dominican Republic living in the capital, or half of Puero Rico living in their capital.

Why is this?

It is because, like Vietnam and other countries that moved away from pure-mafia capitalism, the government recognized the allure of "becoming a whore or criminal" in the capital city where both illicit money and mafia can be found.

So the lack of a huge population in Havana is due to the careful planning of the government, and not due to any kind of racism, as you suggest.

In rich, capitalist countries, we may soon find out that we've "stored" too many people in our large cities very soon. When this happens (it will happen), we will recognize the wisdom of this element of the Cuban revolution, and many others.

De-concentrate urban parasitism in order to create more effective farming and more dynamic regional centers.


https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... ore-reader


Why do you believe Cuba is a paradise? This is fascinating!
#15112597
Julian658 wrote:Why do you believe Cuba is a paradise? This is fascinating!

He doesn't. That is the point. If he did, he would be spending his equity sweat into trying to move there to live for the rest of his life.

He is the guy in the ship that in the middle of a storm starts trying to convince the crew that they should go out for a swim, meanwhile he stays on board. When confronted he simply says... I swam once on a pool, I know what I am talking about.
#15112602
XogGyux wrote:He doesn't. That is the point. If he did, he would be spending his equity sweat into trying to move there to live for the rest of his life.

He is the guy in the ship that in the middle of a storm starts trying to convince the crew that they should go out for a swim, meanwhile he stays on board. When confronted he simply says... I swam once on a pool, I know what I am talking about.


Having said that: I do have some admiration for the Cubans. I am much older than you and many Cubans were my classmates when their parents fled Cuba in the 1960s. They were great friends and had the best work ethic I have seen among latin Americans. Most had good grades and a lot of motivation and ambition.
#15112604
Julian658 wrote:Having said that: I do have some admiration for the Cubans. I am much older than you and many Cubans were my classmates when their parents fled Cuba in the 1960s. They were great friends and had the best work ethic I have seen among latin Americans. Most had good grades and a lot of motivation and ambition.


Just to be clear, my disdain towards the ruling-class, dictatorship, etc in any way shape or form means that I dislike the people or think they are lesser or incapable, etc.
Same thing with social ideas. The mid-century propaganda did a great job to demonize socialist ideas and to associate these ideas with the respective dictators that occupied so-called "socialists" countries. I suspect that this is in part to blame for the reaction of some of these cuba-loving members.
Democracy should always be on top of whatever economic system a country adopts.
#15112607
The haters are sad because:


Sivad wrote:No, people get disgusted when you show love for the corrupt authoritarian regime that oppresses Cuba.


Settle down, John Bolton. Americans can be so hateful.

Not all of them, thankfully. A lot of Americans visit Cuba and enjoy their time there. We have a couple in this thread. :excited:
#15113227
Julian658 wrote:Why do you believe Cuba is a paradise? This is fascinating!

I don't. "Paradise" doesn't exist, except in propaganda.

What I am trying to demonstrate is that Cuba is a well-run country, making the most of its resources and establishing international solidarity with other people struggling under the dead weight of Western oligarchy and economic racism.

It is the USA (and every other empire in human history) that propagates the image of being some kind of "paradise." And when social movements herald the "new worker's paradise," all they are describing is how justice and equality "feel like" a kind of paradise to the abused slave classes who have to carry the fake paradises of the rich on their backs.

Many Latinos come to "America" in search of the paradise they saw on TV. And then they end up working at a Wal-mart warehouse, and driving 3 hours per day from bungalow to parking lot.
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