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#15121913
QatzelOk wrote:You can also go to Cuba and talk to Canadian "refugees" (as you call "immigrants.")

I have met far more Quebecois living in Cuba than the other way around so I guess that proves to you that Quebec must be an even worse "bad name for a bad place."




Retirees who moved down there for the cheap living and who can return at any time don't count. You would need to fully gulag yourself as a Cuban somehow to really put your money where your mouth is and we all know none of you are ever going to do that. I think it would be hilarious if one of you actually did it and found a way to keep posting to pofo so we could all watch as reality set in on you but unfortunately that's just not gonna happen and we all know exactly why it won't.
#15121927
Sivad wrote:...participation in all the gulag denial ...

All those black men who were imprisoned in the USA for smoking a joint, the guys who are making fastfood chain restaurant clothing for no salary... let's see if they would prefer to live with a Cuban style system of resource allocation and community participation in goverance.

...apolitical and is only motivated by your deep affection for the Cuban people.

My love for Cuba and Cubans is much greater than yours, and this is probably because for you and most other Empire-dwellers, Cuba is more of an "issue" than a place with a novel form of governance.

So if our emotional responses can manipulate our opinions and observations (most media is designed to do this), the fact that I haven't watched commercial media for 20 years and have visited Cuba frequently recently... means that my emotions were mainly triggered by my observations, and so my opinions have been altered since these encounters with observed "reality."

Most of what I have written here in this thread are a result of a changed vision of reality that comes from critical observation. (this used to be the definition of "journalism" before advertising took over)
#15121946
QatzelOk wrote:All those black men who were imprisoned in the USA for smoking a joint,


Cuba has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world and a zero tolerance drug policy, there are plenty of black men locked up for years in Cuban prisons for smoking a joint. Cuba also imprisons people for "pre-criminal dangerousness" so Cuba locks people up for a lot less than joint smoking. And prison conditions in Cuba are fucked up, they pack them in like sardines, they got no air conditioning or running water, it's total misery.


the guys who are making fastfood chain restaurant clothing for no salary...


Cuba has plenty of people working shitty jobs for bare subsistence, you'd think someone with your keen powers of "critical observation" would have noticed that at some point in your many visits to that island gulag nation.


let's see if they would prefer to live with a Cuban style system of resource allocation and


Well if Cuba allowed its inmates to leave we'd all see what system they prefer.


community participation in goverance


...is mandatory on threat of further gulaging. :lol:
#15121947
Pants-of-dog wrote:I lived in Chile for a while during the Pinochet years.


As an adult where you were able to fully grasp the situation or as a child with no real political awareness?




I assume you have lived in the USA your whole life.


I've been to a lot of different countries, I've lived abroad for short periods(a few months at a time) but those were more like extended vacations.
#15121950
Pants-of-dog wrote:@Sivad

So we agree that you never lived under authoritarian rule and so, according to your own criteria, you cannot meaningfully comment on authoritarian rule.


That's not my criteria, you just made that up. And I doubt you ever really experienced authoritarian rule, you were probably to young to know what was going on and I bet you're from the upper classes of Latin America so you were probably well insulated from the worst aspects of it anyway.
#15121951
Sivad wrote:That's not my criteria, you just made that up. And I doubt you ever really experienced authoritarian rule, you were probably to young to know what was going on and I bet you're from the upper classes of Latin America so you were probably well insulated from the worst aspects of it anyway.


If you were not making that criteria, then your post was probably irrelevant.

But the fact still remains that I have more first hand experience than you with authoritarianism. That must gall you. Sorry.
#15121954
Pants-of-dog wrote:
But the fact still remains that I have more first hand experience than you with authoritarianism.


I doubt you have any significant experience with it at all.



That must gall you. Sorry.


I don't begrudge anyone their gulaging, everyone I've ever spoken to who really has experienced the nightmare of authoritarian rule is absolutely opposed to it in any form. That's the main reason why I doubt you ever experienced it, your staunch support for gulagism.
#15121955
Sivad wrote:I doubt you have any significant experience with it at all.





I don't begrudge anyone their gulaging, everyone I've ever spoken to who really has experienced the nightmare of authoritarian rule is absolutely opposed to it in any form. That's the main reason why I doubt you ever experienced it, your staunch support for gulagism.


All of this is irrelevant. You really like talking about me for some reason.
#15122052
Sivad wrote:Cuba has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world and a zero tolerance drug policy, there are plenty of black men locked up for years in Cuban prisons for smoking a joint. Cuba also imprisons people for "pre-criminal dangerousness" so Cuba locks people up for a lot less than joint smoking.

The incarceration rate in Cuba is lower than the USA, so from what vantage point are you commenting on Cuba's incarceration rate? It is lower than the USA's. And the people of Cuba have less money to throw around, so that means that the USA - with all that stolen cash - does NOTHING to decrease its incarceration rate.

And the "pre-criminal dangerousn" that you mention requires some kind of link to prove that you're not just spouting off reactionary propaganda that you picked up by watching cartoons.
#15122069
QatzelOk wrote:The incarceration rate in Cuba is lower than the USA, so from what vantage point are you commenting on Cuba's incarceration rate? It is lower than the USA's.


:knife:

Cuba has one of highest incercerations rates in the world according to the Cuban government's own official numbers, but according to secret official documents recently leaked by a high ranking member of the Cuban judiciary, Cuba incarcerates more people per capita than any other country on earth.

The records show that Cuba’s prison system holds more than 90,000 prisoners. The Cuban government has only publicly released the figure once, in 2012, when it claimed that 57,000 people were jailed.





And the "pre-criminal dangerousn" that you mention requires some kind of link to prove that you're not just spouting off reactionary propaganda that you picked up by watching cartoons.


pre-criminal “dangerousness,” defined as “the special inclination an individual has to commit crimes demonstrated by conduct in manifest contradiction to the rules of socialist morality," is used to persecute political dissidents and to remove potential "agitators" from the community before they become politically active.

Ex-Judge Reveals Secrets of How Cuba Suppresses Dissent

Edel González Jiménez says he is not a defector, but a firm believer in the Cuban system who wants to see it reformed.


Edel González Jiménez, who spent more than 15 years as a judge in Cuba

Jan. 13, 2020


A former high-ranking judge in Cuba has joined an antigovernment activist in revealing information from secret government documents that show the government is holding thousands of inmates on dubious charges and has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

The revelations by Edel González Jiménez, who spent more than 15 years on the bench and once supervised 65 other judges, are believed to be the first public challenge to the Cuban government by a top member of the judiciary.

“The repression that I am seeing against part of my people is not what I want for my people,” he said during a news conference on Monday in Madrid, where he was joined by members of an organization that works on behalf of political prisoners in Cuba and by members of the European Parliament. “I have a lot of fear about the future. Every day Cubans face more fear. I don’t want blood on the streets of Cuba, I don’t want these imprisonments.”


Mr. González said that Cuba’s judiciary was often controlled by state security forces that can manufacture cases against political opponents — a statement that critics will readily agree with, but that is surprising coming from a man who insisted that he remains a faithful member of the Communist Party of Cuba and a believer in Fidel Castro’s project.

His avowed support of the government makes his words significantly troubling for a country that frequently paints dissidents as mercenaries on Washington’s payroll.




Documents reviewed by The New York Times showed that approximately 92 percent of those accused in the more than 32,000 cases that go to trial in Cuba every year are found guilty. Nearly 4,000 people every year are accused of being “antisocial” or “dangerous,” terms the Cuban government uses to jail people who pose a risk to the status quo, without having a committed a crime.

Such measures are often used against young black men to stifle potential social uprisings, said Orlando Gutiérrez, an activist in Miami.

Those accused of being a threat are subjected to summary trials and have no right to a defense or to present evidence, Mr. González said. The records show that 99.5 percent of the people accused of this are found guilty.

Mr. Larrondo released Cuban court documents showing that dozens of men received sentences between two and four years in prison for offenses falling broadly under the category of “antisocial” — a phrase that can be applied to people who are unemployed, do not belonging to civic organizations associated with the state, behave disorderly and harass tourists, and associate with similarly “antisocial” people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/13/worl ... judge.html
#15122071
QatzelOk wrote:The incarceration rate in Cuba is lower than the USA, so from what vantage point are you commenting on Cuba's incarceration rate? It is lower than the USA's. And the people of Cuba have less money to throw around, so that means that the USA - with all that stolen cash - does NOTHING to decrease its incarceration rate.

And the "pre-criminal dangerousn" that you mention requires some kind of link to prove that you're not just spouting off reactionary propaganda that you picked up by watching cartoons.


As a Latin America I can tell you that Cubans are incredibly resourceful and with an amazing entrepreneurial spirit. The first wave of Cuban immigrants in the 1960s were the bourgeoisie and they had great economic success. The descendants are the Marco Rubio's of the world.

The later wave of migrants from Cuba were from a lower socio economic classes and Afro Cubans. These folks had less economic success. Nevertheless, they live better than in Cuba.

The average middle to upper class Cuban is a magnificent example of what America offers to hard working immigrants.

You need to talk to the Cubans in the USA to have a better perspective on the issue.
#15122076
Julian658 wrote:As a Latin America


I sincerely doubt this.

Also, you made a typo.

I can tell you that Cubans are incredibly resourceful and with an amazing entrepreneurial spirit. The first wave of Cuban immigrants in the 1960s were the bourgeoisie and they had great economic success. The descendants are the Marco Rubio's of the world.

The later wave of migrants from Cuba were from a lower socio economic classes and Afro Cubans. These folks had less economic success. Nevertheless, they live better than in Cuba.


Provide evidence for this claim that they live better.

They have no healthcare, unemployment is worse, schooling is worse and more expensive, they have a higher chance of going to prison or being killed by the government, and their chances of getting a PSE are much lower.

You need to talk to the Cubans in the USA to have a better perspective on the issue.


I frequently do, because I go there and I speak Spanish. You do not go nor do you speak Spanish.
#15122082
@Pants-of-dog please show that:

  • Cuban schooling is better than American schooling using comparable international tests
  • Cubans are less likely to be killed by their Government than Americans are using independent, non-government sources
  • Cuban-Americans have no access to healthcare
  • Cuban-Americans earn less than Cubans
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