[Sasa]

The Chinese have been subsidizing American consumption of Chinese goods, to the tune according to some, of around $1.5 trillion a year, by way of Chinese savings and through the exchange rate. It is very naive to think this is anything other than a tactical and strategic arrangement, or that it will be enabled to continue, even in the near-to-intermediate future.

The People's Republic of China turned 68 this year. The first 29 years were spent under the regime of Mao Zedong, and laymen seem trapped in this perception, or in a perception of China at the time of Deng Xiaoping's reforms.

However, we are living in the 21st century now. Conspicuously, China joined the WTO in 2001. China's progress over the past 4 decades has forced nothing less than a reevaluation of the naive orthodox theories of economic development and macroeconomics, broadly speaking.

I never underestimate the economic growth in China these decades, but the topic here is when China (the authoritarian with even less freedom than Iran, heavily relying on cheap laborers, facing significant social&environmental crisis) would become a developed country.
I don't know if you ever talked with overseas Chinese, even they(under brainwashing) hardly believe China would be a developed nation any time soon, which is why so many wealthy Chinese chose to live overseas which drives up housing prices in many countries.

[Crantag]

I never underestimate the economic growth in China these decades, but the topic here is when China (the authoritarian with even less freedom than Iran, heavily relying on cheap laborers, facing significant social&environmental crisis) would become a developed country.
I don't know if you ever talked with overseas Chinese, even they(under brainwashing) hardly believe China would be a developed nation any time soon, which is why so many wealthy Chinese chose to live overseas which drives up housing prices in many countries.

I've talked to a lot of Chinese, overseas and in China.

Among overseas Chinese, it's just as likely they hold anti-Chinese views, because their intellectual parents were purged by Mao, or some such thing.

I don't know where you come up with a statement like Chinese have less freedom than people in Iran. Freedom of movement has increased very much. As for choosing to live abroad, I've met plenty of Chinese who live in other countries to make money, for example. Kinda like all expats. Conversely, a statement I heard repeated several times in Japan was this, "Japan is really safe, but it's boring. China is not so safe, but it's really interesting." So, it's really just a matter of weighing alternatives for such people, it isn't that they are anti-China.

[Sasa]

I've talked to a lot of Chinese, overseas and in China.

Among overseas Chinese, it's just as likely they hold anti-Chinese views, because their intellectual parents were purged by Mao, or some such thing.

I don't know where you come up with a statement like Chinese have less freedom than people in Iran. Freedom of movement has increased very much. As for choosing to live abroad, I've met plenty of Chinese who live in other countries to make money, for example. Kinda like all expats. Conversely, a statement I heard repeated several times in Japan was this, "Japan is really safe, but it's boring. China is not so safe, but it's really interesting." So, it's really just a matter of weighing alternatives for such people, it isn't that they are anti-China.

" Chinese have less freedom than people in Iran"
Chinese communist banned almost all major western news sites, as well as Google/Youtube/Facebook(the list goes on), where Iranian government doesn't.
I agree "China is interesting", given that you are not arrested by commenting on the authorities and you can put up with the polluted food/air/water, good luck.
Japan is boring? Why?

[Potemkin]

I've talked to a lot of Chinese, overseas and in China.

Among overseas Chinese, it's just as likely they hold anti-Chinese views, because their intellectual parents were purged by Mao, or some such thing.

I don't know where you come up with a statement like Chinese have less freedom than people in Iran. Freedom of movement has increased very much. As for choosing to live abroad, I've met plenty of Chinese who live in other countries to make money, for example. Kinda like all expats. Conversely, a statement I heard repeated several times in Japan was this, "Japan is really safe, but it's boring. China is not so safe, but it's really interesting." So, it's really just a matter of weighing alternatives for such people, it isn't that they are anti-China.

When I was a postgrad student at Edinburgh Uni, I used to talk with a lot of other graduate students from mainland China. The main thing I noticed about them was their indifference to politics. They were abroad to get a good, internationally recognised education so they could make lots of money. They didn't express opposition to the Chinese government, nor did they express support for it. I got the distinct impression that they just didn't care, one way or the other. Most of them knew nothing about Marxism, and weren't really interested in finding out about it. And this should not surprise us. After all, isn't this the attitude most Chinese people have had towards their government over the past two and a half millennia of Chinese history? The mass mobilisation and mass enthusiasm of the 1950s, 60s and 70s was the anomaly, and it didn't last long.

And as for this 'freedom' thing - when have the Chinese people ever been free? They're probably more free now than they ever have been in their history, so why would they rebel against that? Emperors come, and emperors go. The people remain.

[Sasa]

When I was a postgrad student at Edinburgh Uni, I used to talk with a lot of other graduate students from mainland China. The main thing I noticed about them was their indifference to politics. They were abroad to get a good, internationally recognised education so they could make lots of money. They didn't express opposition to the Chinese government, nor did they express support for it. I got the distinct impression that they just didn't care, one way or the other. Most of them knew nothing about Marxism, and weren't really interested in finding out about it. And this should not surprise us. After all, isn't this the attitude most Chinese people have had towards their government over the past two and a half millennia of Chinese history? The mass mobilisation and mass enthusiasm of the 1950s, 60s and 70s was the anomaly, and it didn't last long.

And as for this 'freedom' thing - when have the Chinese people ever been free? They're probably more free now than they ever have been in their history, so why would they rebel against that? Emperors come, and emperors go. The people remain.

An alternative way to interpret the "indifference to politics" is the lack of justice and extreme selfishness. Believe it or not, people interested in politics (including us) care about more than our own profits. You can blame Trump in any way but one thing is undeniable: Trump cares about America. More often it's because we worry about our future. But Chinese as you described care about their money& assets only, "who is right who is wrong", or the future of the nation/the whole world, nothing to do with them. That characteristic is intentionally fostered to facilitate their authoritarian rule.

Contrary to many westerners have assumed, most Chinese are not pursuing freedom or democracy at all, not mention to become a developed country.

Therefore, do you believe a country with majority people like this, able to be a superpower?

[Potemkin]

An alternative way to interpret the "indifference to politics" is the lack of justice and extreme selfishness. Believe it or not, people interested in politics (including us) care about more than our own profits. You can blame Trump in any way but one thing is undeniable: Trump cares about America. More often it's because we worry about our future. But Chinese as you described care about their money& assets only, "who is right who is wrong", or the future of the nation/the whole world, nothing to do with them. That characteristic is intentionally fostered to facilitate their authoritarian rule.

Therefore, do you believe a country with majority people like this, able to be a superpower?

In a word, yes. After all, the USA is a superpower, and the same processes operate there just as much as in China - most Americans are utterly indifferent to politics. They just want to get rich, preferably by doing as little as possible. And yes, this attitude is intentionally fostered in the USA just as much as it is in China, and for the same reasons - to make people passive and biddable, so they'll just 'go with the flow' and not challenge the workings of the system. This is one of the reasons the ruling elite were so horrified and outraged by Trump - he wasn't willing to just play along with things (at least rhetorically).

[Crantag]

" Chinese have less freedom than people in Iran"
Chinese communist banned almost all major western news sites, as well as Google/Youtube/Facebook(the list goes on), where Iranian government doesn't.
I agree "China is interesting", given that you are not arrested by commenting on the authorities and you can put up with the polluted food/air/water, good luck.
Japan is boring? Why?

A big part of why those websites are banned is to protect Chinese IT monopolies.

Also Chinese internet software has backdoors, just the way it is (the Chinese answer to the NSA, I suppose).

You can access any website really easily though with a VPN connection, and anyone who cares enough to do so can, and does.

Things are not like the Western media tells you they are in China in the way of pollution. I spent weeks in Beijing and Shanghai each, and have traveled to other places, and never found the air pollution bad. I personally suspect some photos printed in newspapers of supposed smog were taken on a foggy morning.

Air pollution is a public health problem in China. A lot of it has to do with coal power generation. China is constantly expanding renewable energy, and is planting millions of trees. You can drive down a highway in China, and see literally thousands of workers planting trees, along the side of the road.

I've never gotten sick from Chinese food. And I'm a adventurous eater, who has had food poisoning multiple times in multiple countries. Now that I think of it, I did get sick off a deep fried quail I bought from a street vendor at a tourist site, but I think that one was on me. There is contaminated food in every country, though.

I spent some time in Dalian, on the Liaotung Peninsula. The air was venerably clear and crisp, and the ocean was deep blue, and transparent when close. My friend and I, along with many other people, were clamming with our hands in the tide pools (and getting as many clams as one wanted). At night, the shopping areas would all fill up with street vendors, selling great varieties of seafood, which were freshly caught.

I'm moving to China very soon, and where I am going also has a reputation as a very clean city.

[Sasa]

In a word, yes. After all, the USA is a superpower, and the same processes operate there just as much as in China - most Americans are utterly indifferent to politics. They just want to get rich, preferably by doing as little as possible. And yes, this attitude is intentionally fostered in the USA just as much as it is in China, and for the same reasons - to make people passive and biddable, so they'll just 'go with the flow' and not challenge the workings of the system. This is one of the reasons the ruling elite were so horrified and outraged by Trump - he wasn't willing to just play along with things (at least rhetorically).

"most Americans are utterly indifferent to politics" Well, at least not so as Chinese, or Trump wouldn't have won the election if most Americans just want to get rich.

The Establishment administration was a craving as the Chinese communist, and the victory of Trump proved majority of Americans people care about their future - rather than getting rich.

[Potemkin]

"most Americans are utterly indifferent to politics" Well, at least not so as Chinese, or Trump wouldn't have won the election if most Americans just want to get rich.

Most Chinese people seem to take a pragmatic attitude towards their government - if it comes up with the goods, materially and economically speaking, then they are willing to tolerate it. And isn't that also true for most people in the West too?

The Establishment administration was a craving as the Chinese communist, and the victory of Trump proved majority of Americans people care about their future - rather than getting rich.

It just means the brainwashing isn't working as well as it used to. Lol.

[Sasa]

Most Chinese people seem to take a pragmatic attitude towards their government - if it comes up with the goods, materially and economically speaking, then they are willing to tolerate it. And isn't that also true for most people in the West too?


It just means the brainwashing isn't working as well as it used to. Lol.

If people in the West really settle with whatever the authority ordered the same as Chinese, we wouldn't have discussed it here. Want to know the tolerance of western people? Try to block Youtube/Facebook/Twitter tomorrow so people still settle?

I don't think brainwashing could succeeds in a democracy, just like Lincoln said, you can cheat some people all the time but not all. And I'm one of the people speaking up the truth. That's why Chinese/Iran/North Korea regime never accept democracy. Don't underrate the effect of democracy.

[Crantag]

If people in the West really settle with whatever the authority ordered the same as Chinese, we wouldn't have discussed it here. Want to know the tolerance of western people? Try to block Youtube/Facebook/Twitter tomorrow so people still settle?

I don't think brainwashing could succeeds in a democracy, just like Lincoln said, you can cheat some people all the time but not all. And I'm one of the people speaking up the truth. That's why Chinese/Iran/North Korea regime never accept democracy. Don't underrate the effect of democracy.

In China, when people are pissed off about something they take to WeChat, not Twitter.

[Sasa]

A big part of why those websites are banned is to protect Chinese IT monopolies.

Also Chinese internet software has backdoors, just the way it is (the Chinese answer to the NSA, I suppose).

You can access any website really easily though with a VPN connection, and anyone who cares enough to do so can, and does.

Things are not like the Western media tells you they are in China in the way of pollution. I spent weeks in Beijing and Shanghai each, and have traveled to other places, and never found the air pollution bad. I personally suspect some photos printed in newspapers of supposed smog were taken on a foggy morning.

Air pollution is a public health problem in China. A lot of it has to do with coal power generation. China is constantly expanding renewable energy, and is planting millions of trees. You can drive down a highway in China, and see literally thousands of workers planting trees, along the side of the road.

I've never gotten sick from Chinese food. And I'm a adventurous eater, who has had food poisoning multiple times in multiple countries. Now that I think of it, I did get sick off a deep fried quail I bought from a street vendor at a tourist site, but I think that one was on me. There is contaminated food in every country, though.

I spent some time in Dalian, on the Liaotung Peninsula. The air was venerably clear and crisp, and the ocean was deep blue, and transparent when close. My friend and I, along with many other people, were clamming with our hands in the tide pools (and getting as many clams as one wanted). At night, the shopping areas would all fill up with street vendors, selling great varieties of seafood, which were freshly caught.

I'm moving to China very soon, and where I am going also has a reputation as a very clean city.

To get a reliable measurement of air quality, you'd better reference to this website:
http://aqicn.org/map/world/
You seem to like China which is fine, people have different preferences and nothing wrong with that.

You surprised me by saying the ban on western website is for local monopoly businesses. sounds like you know little about authoritarian countries. North Korea has a more restricted Internet access, to protect which local business?

Good luck with your China trip.

[Crantag]

To get a reliable measurement of air quality, you'd better reference to this website:
http://aqicn.org/map/world/
You seem to like China which is fine, people have different preferences and nothing wrong with that.

You surprised me by saying the ban on western website is for local monopoly businesses. sounds like you know little about authoritarian countries. North Korea has a more restricted Internet access, to protect which local business?

Good luck with your China trip.

I'm moving there, not taking a trip.

Seems like you ignored all the contents of my post. North Korean internet policies have nothing to do with China.

In America there is Google, in China there is Baidu.

I said that Chinese internet software has backdoors which the government can use to spy with, so it is like the NSA. I am sure that Gmail is real secure from government monitoring by the United States (this could be why it's banned in China, even, for all I know).

As I said, you can access any website with a VPN. If the internet censorship was such a huge priority, it would not be so easy to do this, but it's extremely easy.

[Sasa]

I'm moving there, not taking a trip.

Seems like you ignored all the contents of my post. North Korean internet policies have nothing to do with China.

In America there is Google, in China there is Baidu.

I said that Chinese internet software has backdoors which the government can use to spy with, so it is like the NSA. I am sure that Gmail is real secure from government monitoring by the United States (this could be why it's banned in China, even, for all I know).

As I said, you can access any website with a VPN. If the internet censorship was such a huge priority, it would not be so easy to do this, but it's extremely easy.

Oh, good luck with your life in China.
China has baidu which is the reason it blocks Google? Why don't the US government block Baidu then?
Xi Jinping knows VPN already and has taken action.
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40960423

You probably need to read this before moving there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_ ... p_in_China

[Crantag]

Oh, good luck with your life in China.
China has baidu which is the reason it blocks Google? Why don't the US government block Baidu then?
Xi Jinping knows VPN already and has taken action.
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40960423

You probably need to read this before moving there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_ ... p_in_China

I mentioned Baidu as a Chinese internet monopoly, because you seemed to ask about this with your irrelevant statement about North Korea.

Wikipedia is not a real source. But I know about the internet censorship in China, and already decided that it's rather bearable.

Why doesn't America block Baidu? They'd have no reason to do so really, but in case you haven't been following the news lately, legislation prohibiting internet service providers from slowing access to websites has just been struck down by Trump's FCC. So you may be seeing some sorts of internet censorship in the US soon.

Mind you, I never chimed in to defend China's internet policy. I just said it is what it is. Personally I find it an annoyance, but something I can live with.

In my view, restricting access to Twitter does not rise to the level of a human rights violation.

[Sasa]

I mentioned Baidu as a Chinese internet monopoly, because you seemed to ask about this with your irrelevant statement about North Korea.

Wikipedia is not a real source. But I know about the internet censorship in China, and already decided that it's rather bearable.

Why doesn't America block Baidu? They'd have no reason to do so really, but in case you haven't been following the news lately, legislation prohibiting internet service providers from slowing access to websites has just been struck down by Trump's FCC. So you may be seeing some sorts of internet censorship in the US soon.

Mind you, I never chimed in to defend China's internet policy. I just said it is what it is. Personally I find it an annoyance, but something I can live with.

In my view, restricting access to Twitter does not rise to the level of a human rights violation.

I mentioned North Korea which you considered irrelevant, because both are ruled by dictatorship having the same purpose: spreading propaganda: you probably don't know American TV series are banned in China as well since Xi took power. You probably need to know more about China. Hopefully you'd know more soon.

I understand you are not especially sensitive to the internet censorship. I'm different, I consider the freedom of speech is most important, which is why I like to condemn the impact of political correctness. I welcome different opinions but no one should have the right to "ban" anything.

[Crantag]

I mentioned North Korea which you considered irrelevant, because both are ruled by dictatorship having the same purpose: spreading propaganda: you probably don't know American TV series are banned in China as well since Xi took power. You probably need to know more about China. Hopefully you'd know more soon.

I understand you are not especially sensitive to the internet censorship. I'm different, I consider the freedom of speech is most important, which is why I like to condemn the impact of political correctness. I welcome different opinions but no one should have the right to "ban" anything.

I don't agree with the characterization of China as such. It's not like it was under Mao, in terms of dictatorship. Just yesterday, a friend of mine in China told me, completely unprodded, that her parent's generation had a low level of education, because of mistakes by Mao, which included purging intellectuals; and that Deng Xiaoping saved China. We weren't talking about politics, I'd merely showed her a photo of a book by my Great Uncle, who was a novelist, and had spoke a little about my family background.

There was a very famous movie that came out in 1993, Farwell My Concubine. I mention it merely because it's a movie I've seen, and not because I know it to be famous for anything political. The film depicts vividly the Cultural Revolution, among other things.

Xi Jinping, like other Chinese bureaucrats, arose through the ranks. China is not a monarchy, like North Korea. Xi Jinping was formerly a successful provincial governor. The provincial governors in China are outsiders to the province, who are appointed to oversee economic development.

The Chinese government is essentially ruled by committee. As far as I can tell, the members of the Diet essentially assemble in meetings of the mind, and craft policies for economics, foreign affairs, etc. It's a bit ad hoc, and might even be reminiscent in some ways of Lenin's style of government. It is working though (for how long? that's what some people ask, anyway). It's working because Xi Jinping actually has the confidence of the Chinese people.

It's ironic actually that someone as unpopular as Trump could never ascend to the highest office in China.

As for how to interpret the Chinese system of government, there are of course a range of perspectives, but there are many educated Chinese who support the status quot, and simply do not believe in Liberal Democratic ideals as a priority for emulation. China does have its own complex traditions of interpersonal relations; though these mostly seem to revolve around how to treat kinship and familiars; Chinese can be pretty beastly in crowds. But this is also a generational thing, and greater openness to the world is having a dramatic affect on shaping people's perceptions of everything.

One interesting thing about China is that it is a very multi-ethnic society. For instance, in Japan, ethnic Koreans and Chinese face a lot of discrimination; they are easily identifiable because of their names, and are only allowed to become Japanese Nationals if they change their name to a Japanese name. Because of this, many thousands of ethnic Koreans born in Japan carry South Korean passports; while thousands more are effectively stateless, because they identify as North Korean, and there are no official diplomatic relations between the two countries.

In China, there is no such thing.

[Sasa]

I don't agree with the characterization of China as such. It's not like it was under Mao, in terms of dictatorship. Just yesterday, a friend of mine in China told me, completely unprodded, that her parent's generation had a low level of education, because of mistakes by Mao, which included purging intellectuals; and that Deng Xiaoping saved China. We weren't talking about politics, I'd merely showed her a photo of a book by my Great Uncle, who was a novelist, and had spoke a little about my family background.

There was a very famous movie that came out in 1993, Farwell My Concubine. I mention it merely because it's a movie I've seen, and not because I know it to be famous for anything political. The film depicts vividly the Cultural Revolution, among other things.

Xi Jinping, like other Chinese bureaucrats, arose through the ranks. China is not a monarchy, like North Korea. Xi Jinping was formerly a successful provincial governor. The provincial governors in China are outsiders to the province, who are appointed to oversee economic development.

The Chinese government is essentially ruled by committee. As far as I can tell, the members of the Diet essentially assemble in meetings of the mind, and craft policies for economics, foreign affairs, etc. It's a bit ad hoc, and might even be reminiscent in some ways of Lenin's style of government. It is working though (for how long? that's what some people ask, anyway). It's working because Xi Jinping actually has the confidence of the Chinese people.

It's ironic actually that someone as unpopular as Trump could never ascend to the highest office in China.

As for how to interpret the Chinese system of government, there are of course a range of perspectives, but there are many educated Chinese who support the status quot, and simply do not believe in Liberal Democratic ideals as a priority for emulation. China does have its own complex traditions of interpersonal relations; though these mostly seem to revolve around how to treat kinship and familiars; Chinese can be pretty beastly in crowds. But this is also a generational thing, and greater openness to the world is having a dramatic affect on shaping people's perceptions of everything.

One interesting thing about China is that it is a very multi-ethnic society. For instance, in Japan, ethnic Koreans and Chinese face a lot of discrimination; they are easily identifiable because of their names, and are only allowed to become Japanese Nationals if they change their name to a Japanese name. Because of this, many thousands of ethnic Koreans born in Japan carry South Korean passports; while thousands more are effectively stateless, because they identify as North Korean, and there are no official diplomatic relations between the two countries.

In China, there is no such thing.

Just as I said the vast majority people in China don't pursue freedom & democracy, they just settle with the status quo.
No idea why you compare Trump to Xi Jinping here. The most powerful dictator nowadays vs a elected president completely incomparable.
I don't think China is very "multi-ethnic", in its eastern homeland, where is as homogeneous as that in Japan.

just remind you the other side of Xi Jinping, not so ideal as you thought:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42379722

[Crantag]

Just as I said the vast majority people in China don't pursue freedom & democracy, they just settle with the status quo.
No idea why you compare Trump to Xi Jinping here. The most powerful dictator nowadays vs a elected president completely incomparable.
I don't think China is very "multi-ethnic", in its eastern homeland, where is as homogeneous as that in Japan.

just remind you the other side of Xi Jinping, not so ideal as you thought:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42379722

I said that Xi Jinping has the support of his people, you apparently agreed, as you seemed to seek to attribute it to apathy.

I said that a leader as unpopular as Trump (35% approval rating) could never ascend to the highest office in China. A stated this is ironic, and you point out why, it is contrary to the theories of democracy. We know that the Nazis were elected with a mandate of around 1/3rd, also.

Trump ascended to office because he hacked the Republican primary; while the Democrats meanwhile lost the election by way of the theft of the entire nominating process by Hillary Clinton.

I predicted a Republican victory as soon as Hillary was the clear Democratic candidate (way early, and well before Sanders entered the race), and predicted a Republican victory again once Trump had won the nomination.

There is a Futurama episode where they visit a planet which is similar to Ancient Egypt. In the night, on the eve of a divining ceremony of a new ruler, Bender decodes the messages on the wall and rewrites the code to read that he shall be the new ruler. Bender rules as a brutal slave driver and is hated, but the people a helpless in their position, because Bender has been anointed by the Gods.

It sort of describes the situation of America now, with the kangaroo elections.

The underlying theme is that America is declining, China is ascending. This has social and political consequences.

[Godstud]

I really don't know the "arrogance" of pointing out Thailand not being a developed country:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country
If telling truth is called a kind of arrogance I don't mind.

You're quite arrogant in thinking that a lone source from wikipedia is a decent source and that some of these countries are so easily classified in the first place. I said some people considered it as such, and that's true, but I also said it was developing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developing_country

Arrogance that you think you are right? Absolutely. Facts are facts but what you argue doesn't always mesh with what you post as a source.

What do you consider developed?
- Thailand has universal healthcare, at a very decent technological level akin to the USA(Thailand is #3 in the world for cosmetic surgery). Thailand's healthcare ranking is #47. South Korea sits at #58. USA's is #37.
- Dental care is equivalent to what you'd get in USA
- Thailand has a booming economy with no signs of slowing down(Better than USA economy).
- Thailand has a lower poverty rate than the USA(About a full percent lower)
- Thailand has almost no unemployment(USA has a high unemployment rate)
- Technology in the country is close to American standards. 4G everywhere(Sure it's not 5G but they'll be there in a couple years). Great internet capability.

Back to the topic.

I think your assessment is flawed. Most(if not all) countries are advancing forwards, not backwards. When they get fully developed is the only thing up for debate.

China has a ways to go, still. That does not mean they won't get there at a speedy rate.