[noemon]

It is very simple. Treat everyone, both men and women with dignity and respect at all times. Avoid these 'problems'. In today's workplace it could get you fired, sued, or even thrown in jail if you are a serial rapist on the job. It is not worth it. Period.

Supposedly you are treating people with respect by calling them "chauvinistic pig rapists who don't know how to get laid"? As QatzelOk said earlier, women have a tendency to verbally abuse and harass men and you are just going the extra mile to prove yourself as the "alpha-lady". It's cute. Personal vanity aside, there is also an actual conversation going on and since you quoted skinster who disagrees with my article that is written by a woman, I am expecting to hear what your issue with that woman is.

Second, I would like to ask you whether you tell your sons that glancing at women is harassment or that they should not flirt with women lest they be called "rapists" in case some lady finds their flirting as unwanted because something tells me that you have been training your sons to be 'proper Latino lovers', fearless and confident, rather than timid and weak very much the same way you described your society as hyper-sexual and if you did not find your latin-american society sexually harassing to women 30 or so years ago, then chances are you consider this hysteria in the western society of today as quite ridiculous.

[Lexington]

I wholeheartedly agree that #MeToo is a feminist power grab. At this point, it couldn't be more obvious.

I've been off from this forum doing useful things recently, so I didn't have time to read this but:

At this point, it couldn't (shouldn't) be more obvious that many people think rape and sexual harassment is fine or should just be done behind closed doors where "grab them by the pussy" and such are said in private.

[Pants-of-dog]

Why do people think that women discussing and denouncing sexual assault is “hysteria”?

[Suntzu]

I would call bringing allegations of sexual assault that happened decades ago without any proof is hysterical.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, but your feelings are irrelevant.

It is ironically amusing that you accuse women of being emotional, and the only reason you have for doing so is your emotions.

[Suntzu]

Any legitimate claims will go to court, either civil or criminal, where the claims will be judged on merit. Claims without merit will play out in the press.

[Tainari88]

Supposedly you are treating people with respect by calling them "chauvinistic pig rapists who don't know how to get laid"? As QatzelOk said earlier, women have a tendency to verbally abuse and harass men and you are just going the extra mile to prove yourself as the "alpha-lady". It's cute. Personal vanity aside, there is also an actual conversation going on and since you quoted skinster who disagrees with my article that is written by a woman, I am expecting to hear what your issue with that woman is.

Second, I would like to ask you whether you tell your sons that glancing at women is harassment or that they should not flirt with women lest they be called "rapists" in case some lady finds their flirting as unwanted because something tells me that you have been training your sons to be 'proper Latino lovers', fearless and confident, rather than timid and weak very much the same way you described your society as hyper-sexual and if you did not find your latin-american society sexually harassing to women 30 or so years ago, then chances are you consider this hysteria in the western society of today as quite ridiculous.

First of all Noemon, I am going to get to the point quickly. I don't believe that human culture is all the same across all cultures. Some cultures are more patriarchal and others less so. There are even some very few cultures that are matriarchal or have matriarchal tendencies---a good topic for a new thread with discussions in depth about which human cultures were matriarchies and where are they now and what happens to patriarchy and if it has something to do with capitalism and property rights or if it is a form of social control to oppress women. All those are worthy topics in themselves to discuss with detail.

I have two sons. True. And raising kids is not easy. I did not marry a sexist. I don't like sexist men. But does it mean I don't realize men are not women and won't think like a woman and it is foolish to think men need to think like a woman or some such stupidity. For me the best sense of equality between men and women is about appreciating what makes men and women different from each other and accepting the differences as good. It is about making diversity work for humanity. Not to try to make a uniform way of thinking for both sexes. It is really about socialism again. To each according to their need. People are not born with the same talents, abilities, hormones and etc. The key to a successful society is accepting men and women as different but meeting their needs in a fair and just way. That is how one copes with differences. Not making it about we are the ones dominant and in power....but instead you make it about--you are accepted for who you are. Man, woman, gay, straight, trans, very intelligent and technical, very intelligent and artistic, autistic, not intelligent, loving, kind, shy, extroverted, etc. You accept them for who they are. As they are. You give them respect, dignity and some contribution that is appropriate for who they are, and you integrate them into a society that is about a human need for being useful, being part of something, being recognized as worthy of respect, dignity and consideration.

Good values. If you do that? Consistently Noemon? You won't have all these festering resentments. I want to raise my youngest son with the thought of respecting women. Also enough confidence to go out there and if he likes a girl or a woman he can start a conversation and use his personality, his charm and his whole self to get a willing partner to satisfy his sexual needs. But always with the idea of respect and equality behind the approach. Always. Respect and equality behind the approach. In the end? The sex with that mentality Noemon, the relationship quality and the ability to connect to women if you are a man is totally great. That is what I advocate for.

[noemon]

I am going to get to the point quickly.

I do not disagree with what you said, so let me get to the actual points quickly as well.

The basic issues here are the ones already raised by foxdemon, maz, QatzelOk myself and others.

Sexual assault, rape and sexual harassment in the workplace are already criminal issues embedded in our legal systems. Noone is arguing that we should legitimise such actions and make them allright. The hysteria here is that people are arguing that due process and innocence until proven guilty should be bypassed. It is quite ridiculous that people are not understanding the moral hazard that such suggestions encompass. Once you do away with due process you are basically reverting back to the stone age and the naivete here is what is even more worrying. Centrist and leftist people who have a moral high-ground due to their devotion to the concept of human rights and the rules of law as opposed to the rule of might are here the first to spit on their principles simply because they seek social or feminist approval(...to get that poontang as Qatzel said) utterly oblivious to the fact that once due process is done away with, the first to pay the price will be themselves as political opponents unhinged by due process will simply hang them for treason and sedition in the public courts of twitter and let's face it Tainari, it's not like our western societies are anything other than right-wing, even the leftist parties are right-wing.

This is my main issue at least. Other good points that have been raised is that criminalising and repressing male sexuality -obviously beyond the extent of existing legislation- will simply have the opposite of the desired effects and lastly the point of the OP that this is a Hollywood powergrab is not even hidden in the details but advertised openly by the initiators who seek to impose 50/50 gender quotas on management. Is that something you agree on? Do you believe that companies should be forced to have 50% men and 50% women? Do you actually believe that it is healthy to start imposing gender quotas on business, academia, government and what not? Is that the type of culture that you want to advocate?

It would be nice if people actually honestly discussed these issues instead of trying to find creative ways to insult all those who are not parroting the #metoo hysteria while also lumping all them together.

You spoke about culture, I also come from the Greek culture which is very similar to the Latin culture as we are not a litigious culture, we are a hypersexual culture ranking 1st in the world on sex(outranking Brazil even) and lowest divorce rate and lowest suicide rate in Europe. I am not keen on turning everyone into a Hollywood litigious bot from hell as QatzelOk put it. Are you?

[Pants-of-dog]

Who is saying we should get rid of due process and the presumption of innocence?

[Suntzu]

Who is saying we should get rid of due process and the presumption of innocence?

To late!

[Pants-of-dog]

To late!

Learn to write actual sentences and arguments.

[Igor Antunov]

Phony professional victim uncovered; perfect example to go with the thread topic.

The original tweet:

The facts:

This woman willingly signed a contract that specifically stated she would be asked to perform nude scenes.
This woman had the ability to refuse signing the contract at any time for any reason.
This woman could have walked away even after signing the contract. Nobody is going to force her to be nude against her will for a film.

She is now slandering James Franco on Twitter and using "feminism" to gather supporters

What this woman is accusing James Franco of is not sexual exploitation. It isn't sexual harassment. It isn't rape. She agreed to do something and only years later decided it made her uncomfortable.

[skinster]

It's just actually quite stunning to see a bunch of dudes making up silly arguments for why they don't care about women asking them to stop harassing or raping or killing them. Don't you all have lovers? Mothers? Sisters? Daughters? Female friends? If so, it sounds very much like you don't care about them.

Flirting is okay. Flirting is mutual. When you flirt with someone and they're not interested, it's probably a good idea to stop. That should be acceptable to pretty much anyone who doesn't feel entitled to any body they find attractive. It's not "self-hating" for women to speak up and tell you no. It's self-loving. It's self-determination.

Sexual harassment is not flirting. It's scaring. It puts women in a constant state of caution and fear because men have this tendency to beat up and rape and kill women very regularly, in-between killing each other.

Noemon Edit: Rule 2 Violation

[noemon]

It is indeed quite stunning seeing the insults thrown just because some people disagree with using sexual hysteria as a front to impose gender quotas. Gender fucking quotas among other things.

[skinster]

It sounds like you have things really hard, noeman.

[Drlee]

Sexual harassment is not flirting. It's scaring. It puts women in a constant state of caution and fear because men have this tendency to beat up and rape and kill women very regularly, in-between killing each other.

Where in the world do you live? This is certainly not the case in the US. Or are we indulging in a bit of hyperbole?

[Tainari88]

I do not disagree with what you said, so let me get to the actual points quickly as well.

The basic issues here are the ones already raised by foxdemon, maz, QatzelOk myself and others.

Sexual assault, rape and sexual harassment in the workplace are already criminal issues embedded in our legal systems. Noone is arguing that we should legitimise such actions and make them allright. The hysteria here is that people are arguing that due process and innocence until proven guilty should be bypassed. It is quite ridiculous that people are not understanding the moral hazard that such suggestions encompass. Once you do away with due process you are basically reverting back to the stone age and the naivete here is what is even more worrying. Centrist and leftist people who have a moral high-ground due to their devotion to the concept of human rights and the rules of law as opposed to the rule of might are here the first to spit on their principles simply because they seek social or feminist approval(...to get that poontang as Qatzel said) utterly oblivious to the fact that once due process is done away with, the first to pay the price will be themselves as political opponents unhinged by due process will simply hang them for treason and sedition in the public courts of twitter and let's face it Tainari, it's not like our western societies are anything other than right-wing, even the leftist parties are right-wing.

This is my main issue at least. Other good points that have been raised is that criminalising and repressing male sexuality -obviously beyond the extent of existing legislation- will simply have the opposite of the desired effects and lastly the point of the OP that this is a Hollywood powergrab is not even hidden in the details but advertised openly by the initiators who seek to impose 50/50 gender quotas on management. Is that something you agree on? Do you believe that companies should be forced to have 50% men and 50% women? Do you actually believe that it is healthy to start imposing gender quotas on business, academia, government and what not? Is that the type of culture that you want to advocate?

It would be nice if people actually honestly discussed these issues instead of trying to find creative ways to insult all those who are not parroting the #metoo hysteria while also lumping all them together.

You spoke about culture, I also come from the Greek culture which is very similar to the Latin culture as we are not a litigious culture, we are a hypersexual culture ranking 1st in the world on sex(outranking Brazil even) and lowest divorce rate and lowest suicide rate in Europe. I am not keen on turning everyone into a Hollywood litigious bot from hell as QatzelOk put it. Are you?

Noemon, there are so many aspects of white, liberal American Anglo influenced agendas in many aspects of American society that I don't agree with. But I live in the USA currently and have had to deal with white liberal women. Some argued with me openly about many things. If my husband carried more groceries bags than I did, or if he opens the door for me. Little things. My husband was standing in line at the movie theater behind some young men in their early twenties with their dates (same age women) and he commented to me in Spanish, "The men did not pay for the women's tickets. And they are not paying for dinner. That is rude." I answered him, "It is a different culture. Going 'dutch' they call it." He did not approve. The white liberal women started talking to me about if my husband makes more money than I do or if he makes more money, and how money influences the power relationship. How one should have quotas for minorities and gender and so many things. Those are all very shallow attempts at equality.

It is hard Noemon. For me trying to explain how women don't have to adopt male paradigms and just be allowed to be very feminine women....and find tremendous satisfaction in that.....without some kind of ugly competition with men? I don't want to get into my issues with white, liberal women who are upper middle class and their mentalities in this thread. A good topic for another thread.

Due process? I think #MeToo is about also women who were or felt denied that they had an ability to bring home a female president. I never fell into that trap. I don't give a damn about if a politician is a woman or not. I care about their political philosophy Noemon. Not if they have the right sexual genitalia. For me? That is superficial in politics. You can get a female who is class conscious, believes in every ugly discriminatory and bad public policy. Betsy De Voss comes to mind. Female doesn't equate justice. It never has. But neither does male.

[B0ycey]

But my point here is that my posts in this thread aren't autobiographical at all. I've had tons of social and sexual opportunities and will hopefully have many more. But, on a political thread, what is important is everyone's human right (like all other animals) to fulfil their sexual fantasies and always feel sexuallly fulfilled.

You can debate whether or not there is a hysteria with sexual assault today. Perhaps there is. But @QatzelOk was not advocating that message @noemon. He was advocating for sexual fulfilment for all at the expense of someone else's rights. His arguments are crap. Sex is a two person activity (excluding masturbation that he doesn't deem appropriate) so if one person is a sleezeball with no social skills, can't court properly and has extreme fantasies, do you think the state should allow/provide his sexual fulfillment?

[Suntzu]

Another argument for legalized prostitution! This would make what happens on the casting couch legal.

[Drlee]

Another argument for legalized prostitution! This would make what happens on the casting couch legal.

No. No it wouldn't. But nice try.

But for the record. If a starlet is willing to trade sex for a part, who can stop her? I asked this earlier. This entire discussion seems to ignore the undeniable fact that some, if not many, people hoping for fame or fortune make it known to men that they would trade sexual favors for shot at that.

Clearly men are supposed to ignore these advances but we are going a bit too far. To Suntzu's point. Why should they? IF I own a business, and that business has an opening, why not give it to whomever I want for whatever reason? If I make a mistake my business might suffer but then we are not really talking about unqualified people. We are talking about a multitude of good choices. In Marylin Monroe's biography she was quoted as calling Hollywood a "brothel" and said that she spent "much of my early career on my knees". Hiring her was sure no mistake no matter how she got the job.

Is this something we can talk about?