[skinster]

Teaching kids how to communicate...

In the context of this thread should entail things like "respect people" / "don't grope or rape them".

[Albert]

Do you have a job? Children? Do you know how to build a house? Fix your vehicle? Ever been in a fight?

That is very manly indeed.

[Pants-of-dog]

So that is a “no” on all counts?

[Albert]

Okay how all this has to do with feminism that is playing its part in the destruction of the western civilization? Stop trying to intimidate me with you manliness Pants. Please it is too much.

[One Degree]

In the context of this thread should entail things like "respect people" / "don't grope or rape them".

We should definitely teach then not to rape (as if you actually need to), but including ‘respect’ and ‘don’t grope’ in the same sentence is disingenuous and sexist. How is the boy suppose to know ‘innocent susy’ doesn’t like being groped. Your argument assumes pure innocence of all females and aggression of all males. It is simply not true. Girls like sex too and there is only one way to find out if they want sex with you.

[Stormsmith]

We should definitely teach then not to rape (as if you actually need to), but including ‘respect’ and ‘don’t grope’ in the same sentence is disingenuous and sexist. How is the boy suppose to know ‘innocent susy’ doesn’t like being groped. Your argument assumes pure innocence of all females and aggression of all males. It is simply not true. Girls like sex too and there is only one way to find out if they want sex with you.

Ask?

[One Degree]

Ask?

Back to the same argument. No, I am not going to ask like some wimp. I will approach and see what response I get. Only a moron would ask if they can touch your boob guaranteeing a ‘no’ from any female who appreciates men.

[Stormsmith]

Look 1 degree, you could just try something simple but obvious like running a finger tip along her neck line and look to see how she responds. Either she'll smile or ward you off with something like "I'm not ready for that tonight" you won't risk getting a knee injury your naughty bits, she won't be put off men.

[One Degree]

Look 1 degree, you could just try something simple but obvious like running a finger tip along her neck line and look to see how she responds. Either she'll smile or ward you off with something like "I'm not ready for that tonight" you won't risk getting a knee injury your naughty bits, she won't be put off men.

But all you are doing is telling me what approach I should use to reduce the chances of misunderstanding signals. That has nothing to do with when I finally touch her boob if she can claim sexual assault. Many on here are saying she can because I did not get verbal permission. I am just trying to demonstrate how unrealistic that is and unfair to males.
Many of the sex assault accusations today don’t amount to much more than this. Admittedly they are tried in the media because no court would currently consider them but they still destroy lives because of the definition being applied to sexual assault by the public. The courts will follow if this is not corrected.

[Pants-of-dog]

Okay how all this has to do with feminism that is playing its part in the destruction of the western civilization?

Do you blame feminism for your own lack of manliness?

Because you do not seem to be a feminst, or influenced by feminism.

———————-

That has nothing to do with when I finally touch her boob if she can claim sexual assault. Many on here are saying she can because I did not get verbal permission.

No, we are saying that she can claim sexual assault because you did not get consent.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_consent

[One Degree]

Do you blame feminism for your own lack of manliness?

Because you do not seem to be a feminst, or influenced by feminism.

———————-



No, we are saying that she can claim sexual assault because you did not get consent.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_consent

This link just describes the same argument we are having. It also demonstrates how it is gravitating to only verbal consent being accepted. Implied consent is still accepted in the US. The link adds nothing to our discussion.

[Godstud]

Whether it's verbal or implied, it is still CONSENT. Implied can be non-verbal communication, as some people here have indicated(i.e. Stormsmith and myself).

[Pants-of-dog]

This link just describes the same argument we are having. It also demonstrates how it is gravitating to only verbal consent being accepted. Implied consent is still accepted in the US. The link adds nothing to our discussion.

So you understand what is meant by consent?

And how it does not need to be verbal?

But you still need consent before you go and try to grab a woman’s breast.

[One Degree]

So you understand what is meant by consent?

And how it does not need to be verbal?

But you still need consent before you go and try to grab a woman’s breast.

Do you understand Canada no longer accepts ‘implied consent’ according to your link? Some in the US are pushing for the same thing. That is why we are debating it. Current laws do not void the need for debate.

[Pants-of-dog]

Do you understand Canada no longer accepts ‘implied consent’ according to your link? Some in the US are pushing for the same thing. That is why we are debating it. Current laws do not void the need for debate.

Please quote the text that supports your claim.

Here is a good definition of consent:

A voluntary agreement between 2 or more people to engage in sexual activity. Consent must be clear, informed, voluntary, sober, act and person-specific, ongoing, mutual, active, and come directly from the individuals engaging in the sexual contact. It is impossible to get consent from children, though close-in-age  and peer-experimentation exceptions exist for youth ages 12-15.

https://sace.ca/learn/what-is-sexual-assault

[Godstud]

@One Degree There are no U.S. States that allow implied consent as an excuse for rape in a court of law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_consent

Mind you, it's not as simple as you'd like to imply it is. There's a great deal of grey area. It's also really not he same as verbal/non-verbal consent.

Many actions can be perceived by the court as implied consent: having a previous relationship with the alleged rapist (e.g. befriending, dating, cohabitating, or marrying),[17] consenting to sexual contact on previous occasions, flirting,[15] wearing "provocative" clothing,[18] etc.These actions are not explicitly defined by the law as indicators of consent;

Again: There are no U.S. States that allow implied consent as an excuse for rape in a court of law.

In Canada, implied consent has not been a defence for sexual assault since the 1999 Supreme Court of Canada case of R v Ewanchuk, where the court unanimously ruled that consent has to be explicit, instead of merely "implied".

@One Degree It's really quite simple and if you find getting consent difficult, then maybe you should steer clear of women. "Grabbing women's boobs" is kind of a rapey thing to say. That said, I guess since Trump is your idol(you can deny it all day, but you never fail to leap to his defense) and he's into "pussy grabbing", I shouldn't surprised.

[Stormsmith]

I don't know of one women who's taken a guy to court for touching her. The courts would be swamped. I will tell you if you approached me as I described above, I wouldn't have a problem. But if you lunged at me, buddy we would.

Look at the MeToo movement. Most, if not all the cases originated by a rape victim. The others came forward later to back up the first chargers.

[B0ycey]

Back to the same argument. No, I am not going to ask like some wimp. I will approach and see what response I get. Only a moron would ask if they can touch your boob guaranteeing a ‘no’ from any female who appreciates men.

How can Drlee try and defend this type of comment.

Don't ask, get charged. It is that simple.

So anyway, where do we all stand on Trump and his pussy grabbing antics?

[One Degree]

I don't know of one women who's taken a guy to court for touching her. The courts would be swamped. I will tell you if you approached me as I described above, I wouldn't have a problem. But if you lunged at me, buddy we would.

Look at the MeToo movement. Most, if not all the cases originated by a rape victim. The others came forward later to back up the first chargers.

I will reply to you since you seem to be the only one willing to address what I actually said. I agree with you that it comes down to giving the person an opportunity to object, if it is a new relationship. If it is not a new relationship then any previously accepted behavior should be considered acceptable until told otherwise.

[Drlee]

One Degree wrote:
Back to the same argument. No, I am not going to ask like some wimp. I will approach and see what response I get. Only a moron would ask if they can touch your boob guaranteeing a ‘no’ from any female who appreciates men.

BOycey asked:

How can Drlee try and defend this type of comment.

What if I let Stormsmith give the answer for you.

Stormsmith wrote:
I don't know of one women who's taken a guy to court for touching her. The courts would be swamped. I will tell you if you approached me as I described above, I wouldn't have a problem. But if you lunged at me, buddy we would.

It seems to me that we are arguing in a circle here. Ironically there is little disagreement but boy are we getting exercised. So what is the real life deal?

Let's get real. After a date, a woman asks me up to her apartment to 'have a drink'. We have a drink. The evening is going beautifully up to this point. I like her and find her attractive and the invitation and her actions toward me indicate that I do not make her wretch either. So we are making out on her sofa. I am not going to stop the moment and say, "Pardon me. If you could take your tongue out of my throat for a moment, I have a question......" What I might do is what Stormsmith described. And the evening might progress from there. Am I ever going to say, "may I.......? Probably not. And in my 55 years of being single, bathing regularly, being polite and respectful and not less than a little naturally nervous in a first situation like this, did I have a woman run screaming from a room. Nor, I sincerely hope, feel put upon.

Don't ask, get charged. It is that simple.

And this is is simply not the real world nor do those of us in mature relationships and with some modicum of experience want the world to be that way. Men or women.

So. You are in a bar. You get some drunk chick into the car with you to "drive her home". You take her to her house and help her up the stairs. I don't care if you ask her or not, if you proceed to try to have any kind of sex with this girl you are on the rocks. You deserve what you get. Granted she was acting unsafely and more than a little stupidly but that is not permission. A real man would not take advantage of her. He would see her home, get her number if he was interested and take her on a date later if she wanted to go. Then see the above.

Scenario three. If she takes the money.......

POD has said he can follow "nonverbal cues". So he does not believe that verbal consent is required. I don't either. See the above. But that begs the question. If you do not have the experience and therefor the ability to read these cues what do you do? This is not rocket science. If I were teaching my 16 year old son how to behave. (And that would have been too late for me) I might impress upon him a few rules:

1. Don't have sex because you can. Have sex because both of you really want to . Any port in a storm is not a good dating strategy. Nor is 'because she gave in'.

2. It is your responsibility to be sure that the girl is ready too. If you are going to start having sex, you need to discuss it with her. That is not to say that you need to take the spontaneity out of it but there is a vast difference between making out and having sex. Especially when you are young. Drunk or stoned is never the right time for a first time.

3. Recreational sex, as common as some people would have you believe it is, is not common and not, in general, a good idea. If you are really going to have a no-fault sexual relationship with someone you can discuss it with them in very frank terms. I know a married couple who have an open sexual relationship. She teaches consent classes at burning man. They would be the first to tell you how rare their relationship is and how easily it can get really complicated.

4. If you are the boss or you are in a position of power over a woman, never ever have a sexual or even romantic relationship with them. Full stop. Even if they want to. Even if you think they are more loyal than my dog Sam and twice as pretty. If you just can't stop yourself then quit your job and have at it. It is never OK for men or women to participate in a sexual relationship with a subordinate and it is the bosses responsibility to say no. And to always and I mean always keep his/her hands to themselves. (This one is really hard.)

5. No means no. Not tonight...I am not in the mood...pushes your hand away...does not respond...passes out...is drunk....all are the exact same thing as NO.

6. Son. Know this. There is no doubt that pushy shit heads can get sex and probably, I am sad to say, more often than nice guys do. But they will someday pay a price for it. Sometimes they get in trouble. Sometimes she gets pregnant. But here is the thing. Someday they meet a really wonderful woman who knocks them off of their feet and the old strategy that got them laid in the past sends her running for the door. They go into the big loser category really fast.

That is (in part) what I would impress upon my son. (Certainly much younger than 16 but I don't want this thread to dissolve into yet another discussion about how old is old enough.)

It is too bad that the word "rape" comes up in discussing what One Degree (and Stormsmith and I for that matter) are saying. Sexual assault too for that matter. I really don't care what the legal definition of sexual assault is because we are not discussing that.

Drunken driving is illegal. Killing someone while you are driving drunk is murder. That does not mean that drunken driving is murder. It means that there is the potential for that to happen. BOTH men and women need to understand that they need to keep themselves out of harms way. The fact is that we know exactly where the lines are in the vast majority of cases and it is only when we knowingly go over those lines that we get in trouble.

Now if we want to discuss waiting 50 years and then bringing up some minor thing, that is worthy of discussion I suppose. The thing is that outside of the marketplace it rarely happens. I can't think of a case. I am sure it has happened. It is not, in my opinion wha the Meetoo movement is about and it does the movement a disservice to trivialize the things that it is trying to stop. Touching a woman's breast on a date and having her say, "not tonight" is NOT what the #meetoo movement is about.