[Stormsmith]

Fair enough. Pick a high profile case and show me the witness/es and evidence.

Jill Harth

Age Early 30s Year: 1993 Location: One of the children's bedrooms at Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate

A former business partner, Harth alleges Trump forcibly kissed her on the lips and groped her breasts and grabbed her genitals, in what she referred to in a 1997 lawsuit as "attempted rape". On a previous occasion, she alleges, he groped her under the table during dinner with colleagues at the Plaza Hotel. Source: The Guardian

From: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/nov/30/donald-trump-sexual-misconduct-allegations-full-list This sight lists 19 other cases

Mr. Trump: Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

Mr. Bush: Whatever you want.

Mr. Trump: Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.

[url]nytimes.com/2017/11/28/us/politics/donald-trump-tape[/url]

[Suntzu]

Do you understand what evidence is in a criminal trial?

[Godstud]

@Suntzu you clearly don't, as accounts from witnesses and victims ARE evidence in courts of law. Things said under oath are evidence. Victim statements are evidence.

Of course, not all evidence is given the same weight in court, but statements from others can reinforce victim statements, and recorded behavior can do so, as well. eg. Trump's pussy-grabbing statement.

[Suntzu]

Do you understand what "beyond a reasonable doubt" means? An eye witness to something that happened 20 years ago is reliable? Two biased witness (he said, she said) is not credible evidence.

[Godstud]

I see the real problem is that you have no understanding of the law and how it works. I can't discuss things with you unless you have at least a basic understanding, which seems to be lacking.

Here:
The quantum of evidence is the amount of evidence needed; the quality of proof is how reliable such evidence should be considered. Important rules that govern admissibility concern hearsay, authentication, relevance, privilege, witnesses, opinions, expert testimony, identification and rules of physical evidence. There are various standards of evidence or standards showing how strong the evidence must be to meet the legal burden of proof in a given situation, ranging from reasonable suspicion to preponderance of the evidence, clear and convincing evidence, or beyond a reasonable doubt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_(law)

Two biased witness (he said, she said) is not credible evidence.

Two witnesses giving similar testimony on a person can made their claims credible. You claiming bias is, of course, simply nonsense.

[Suntzu]

Harth had an ongoing relationship with Trump that lasted long after the incident.

[ccdan]

Victim statements are evidence.

Absolutely never! Not in a normal, fair judicial system. But you can't expect that from the US, UK or other "common law" countries where the "judicial system" has absolutely nothing in common with the ideas of justice, fairness, correctness and so on. Many ideas and principles at the base of the judicial systems in those countries - anything from ambiguous terminology that's very widespread in their legislation to the idea of jury trial or what's considered "valid evidence" - completely undermine the idea of "justice" in the sense of fairness. It's more of a "you'll be judged and convicted(or, rarely, acquitted) based on what we like to believe about you" - kind-of-system.

Victim statements are absolutely always allegations that must be backed up by corresponding objectively verifiable evidence. If all you have is "victim statements" then you have absolutely nothing - in most jurisdictions outside the "common law" countries, complaints/allegations that can't be backed up by evidence, will be dismissed as a standard procedure - you simply can't get to a judge if all you have is complainant's words.

[Godstud]

Absolutely never! Not in a normal, fair judicial system.

You know nothing about the judicial system, apparently. It absolutely is normal in a fair judicial system.

Evidence and witnesses
https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-ess ... essays.php

Evidence and witnesses
https://definitions.uslegal.com/v/victi ... statement/

[ccdan]

You know nothing about the judicial system, apparently. It absolutely is normal in a fair judicial system.

Evidence and witnesses
https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-ess ... essays.php

Evidence and witnesses
https://definitions.uslegal.com/v/victi ... statement/

I know quite a bit about justice in general and more than enough about each major judicial system in particular.

You don't seem to understand that there are several judicial systems out there, which are not really compatible among one another and which don't have the same principles, rigor or ultimate goal.

You have cited irrelevant stuff from the american pseudo-judicial system. There's no such thing as real justice in the US(or any other common law country)

[ccdan]

False victimization? Please provide a source for this claim. False claims for sexual assault, etc. is actually on par with other false claims, regarding crimes of any nature.

Please provide sources supporting your claims. Saying it's "strongly suppress" is just a cop-out. Your opinion is noted.

Right, because it's a false claim that you cannot back up with facts.

9 years ago:

Wow ccdan, you blurt out some pretty preposterous nonsense there. Your facts... could you back them up with something other than just wild claims and assertions?

Rape is not EXTREMELY RARE!

viewtopic.php?p=13136612#p13136612

Here's the evidence I presented 9 years ago:

Of the 90,427 forcible rapes reported in 2007, 40% were cleared by arrest or "exceptional means" (FBI, 2008d) with 23,307 of those being arrests (FBI, 2008b).

Very little formal research has been conducted on the prevalence of false allegations of rape. One study looked at the 109 cases of forcible rape that were disposed of in one small midwestern town between 1978 and 1987 (Kanin, 1994). The given town was specifically selected for study because the police department used a uniquely objective and thorough protocol when investigating rape complaints. Among other procedural safeguards, officers did not have the discretion to drop rape investigations if they concluded the complaint was "suspect" or unfounded. Every rape accusation had to be thoroughly investigated and included offering a polygraph to both the accuser and the accused. Cases were only determined to be false if and when the accuser admitted that no rape occurred.

The researchers further investigated those cases that the police, through their investigation, had ultimately determined were "false" or fabricated. During the follow-up investigation, the complainants held fast to their assertion that their rape allegation had been true, despite being told they would face penalties for filing a false report. As a result, 41% of all of the forcible rape complaints were found to be false. To further this study, a similar analysis was conducted on all of the forcible rape complaints filed at two large midwestern public universities over a 3-year period. Here, where polygraphs were not offered as part of the investigatory procedure, it was found that 50% of the complaints were false.

Charles P. McDowell, a researcher in the United States Air Force Special Studies Division, studied the 1,218 reports of rape that were made between 1980 and 1984 on Air Force bases throughout the world (McDowell, 1985). Of those, 460 were found to be "proven" allegations either because the "overwhelming preponderance of the evidence" strongly supported the allegation or because there was a conviction in the case. Another 212 of the total reports were found to be "disproved" as the alleged victim convincingly admitted the complaint was a "hoax" at some point during the initial investigation. The researchers then investigated the 546 remaining or "unresolved" rape allegations including having the accusers submit to a polygraph. Twenty-seven percent (27%) of these complainants admitted they had fabricated their accusation just before taking the polygraph or right after they failed the test. (It should be noted that whenever there was any doubt, the unresolved case was re-classified as a "proven" rape.) Combining this 27% with the initial 212 "disproved" cases, it was determined that approximately 45% of the total rape allegations were false.
http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/

The study documents 28 cases which, "with the exception of one young man of limited mental capacity who pleaded guilty," consist of individuals who were convicted by juries and, then, later exonerated by DNA tests.

At the time of release, they had each served an average of 7 years in prison.

The passage that riveted my attention was a quote from Peter Neufeld and Barry C. Scheck, prominent criminal attorneys and co-founders of the Innocence Project that seeks to release those falsely imprisoned.

They stated, "Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where results could be obtained, the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing. Specifically, FBI officials report that out of roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases since 1989, about 2,000 tests have been inconclusive, about 2,000 tests have excluded the primary suspect, and about 6,000 have "matched" or included the primary suspect."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html

the figures presented by radical faminists that vary from 2% to 8% are taken from feminist books and badly interpreted data from the fbi and other institutions


By "actual" rape I mean forced sexual intercourse! Some people try to extend this meaning to other circumstances like when you have consensual sex with a drunk woman and she doesn't remember, when "adults" have sex with teens (e.g. 18 with 16), or even when teens have sex with teens... and why not, for some, even when some "victims" regret their sexual adventures and/or their lack of "ability" to say "no" .... and that's NOT ALL!

while for some of us the meaning of "rape" is at least relatively clear, for some (many?) women it seems to be a great "mystery" ... here are some excerpts (some of them paradoxically comical) from a site that offers counseling to (supposed) rape victims:

Is this rape? 8/31/2009 Dr.Sunu Sundar
Q: I am a married woman. My husband will try to arouse me when I am sleeping and if I don't respond he ...

Is this Rape?
When I was away to visit family, my girlfriend had a poker party at her place. A guy that she has only met about 5 times couldn't drive home and she offered him to sleep on the couch for the night. My girlfriend and I had cyber sex before she went to bed, while the whole time her friend was sleeping upstairs. They both had alot to drink and she said she passed out on her bed. When she was waking up she thought that I was having sex with her, she couldn't see because it was so dark. It was her friend that was sleeping over on the couch having sex with her. When she realized it wasn't me she said to get out which he did. She told me the next day and she doesn't know what to do. She thinks it's not rape but I say it is. Can you help us on what the ruling is on the situation. Thank You
A:She thought it was you, and this man took advantage of your girlfriend’s state. So if your girlfriend didn’t consent to this action or actions, then he did in fact violate her and rape her by definition, yes. Maybe your girlfriend is in denial and or may experience some Rape Trauma Syndrome.

Help me understand
Hi,i don't know for sure if this will make sense..and I am not sure whether I am a rape victim or not.
Let me explain..ever since I am about 13 yrs old, I have a nightmare in which I'm about 8 - 9yrs old and someone comes in the night and rapes me.

abuse? please help.
i am now a 15 year old girl, and some things happened when i was younger and i am unsure what to call it.
when i was about 8 my cousin was 13 and he used to sleep over when he came to visit.
when we slept together he would tell me about his penis and tell me to touch it or smell it.
he also would tell me how it would get hard and would tell me to hump things. he would ask me things like what it was like to have a vagina and talk to me about sexual things at a very young age.
what is this called? what did he do to me?

was i raped 6/19/2009
Q: Me and my friend met up with two guys one night. We were all expecting to have sex, i was a little ...
A: I fully empathize with you. I just want to tell you that God exists and He forgives sins. If ...


Well, they're common and the punishments are often a joke(if there are any at all): a small fine or some suspended sentence... prison time is rare and usually just a few months

Code: Select allProof, or is this just your OPINION?

I can't remeber the links... however
some info
http://www.claremontconservative.com/20 ... cyles.html

about the reversal of burden of prood:

Men contesting rape charges will have to convince a jury that their accusers gave free and unqualified consent, under radical proposals from a review of the law on sex offences set up by the Home Office.
The reform would strengthen the hands of rape complainants by forcing a defendant to show not only that his accuser consented to sex, but did so freely. It would shift the balance in rape trials in the accuser's favour and could substantially improve the low success rate in rape prosecutions.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/apr/06/claredyer1 (it wasn't approved though - it would have been ridiculous)

viewtopic.php?p=13151896#p13151896

And you couldn't care less about all the evidence! You didn't even reply.

How pathetic!

[Godstud]

I didn't reply because I have no fucking idea because it was 9 years ago...

You don't have an argument simply because someone didn't reply to a stupid post of yours 9 years ago.

[ccdan]

I didn't reply because I have no fucking idea because it was 9 years ago...

No dude, you didn't reply back then, in 2009. That post with the evidence was a reply to one of your posts and I'm pretty sure you saw it but chose not to reply because you'd have had to admit that you had been wrong. Now you're trolling, dismissing the evidence as a "stupid post" of mine, with zero arguments, as usual. It's beyond obvious that you have an agenda and you're not genuinely interested in debates.

[Godstud]

You're being purposefully dishonest. I have no idea why I never responded to you 9 fucking years ago, and it's not relevant to my posts, or your posts, now.

[Pants-of-dog]

Absolutely never! Not in a normal, fair judicial system. But you can't expect that from the US, UK or other "common law" countries where the "judicial system" has absolutely nothing in common with the ideas of justice, fairness, correctness and so on. Many ideas and principles at the base of the judicial systems in those countries - anything from ambiguous terminology that's very widespread in their legislation to the idea of jury trial or what's considered "valid evidence" - completely undermine the idea of "justice" in the sense of fairness. It's more of a "you'll be judged and convicted(or, rarely, acquitted) based on what we like to believe about you" - kind-of-system.

Victim statements are absolutely always allegations that must be backed up by corresponding objectively verifiable evidence. If all you have is "victim statements" then you have absolutely nothing - in most jurisdictions outside the "common law" countries, complaints/allegations that can't be backed up by evidence, will be dismissed as a standard procedure - you simply can't get to a judge if all you have is complainant's words.

For someone who is so focused on evidence, you still have not provided any evidence for your claims about women making false allegations.

Please provide that evidence. Thanks.

[ccdan]

Please provide that evidence. Thanks.

The evidence is a few posts above.

[Pants-of-dog]

The evidence is a few posts above.

It is not very good.

The firat link is dead. Can you provide a link to the study mentioned in the first paragraph?

Your Fox news link is an editorial. Editorials are opinion pieces and should not be considered evidence, as the author is being openly biased.

So, let me know when you have working links to actual studies or articles. Thanks.

[ccdan]

It is not very good.

The firat link is dead. Can you provide a link to the study mentioned in the first paragraph?

Your Fox news link is an editorial. Editorials are opinion pieces and should not be considered evidence, as the author is being openly biased.

So, let me know when you have working links to actual studies or articles. Thanks.

It's actually perfect.

Each article has various references that can be looked up on the internet.

But I know you don't care about that because you have an agenda. A feminist one.

[Pants-of-dog]

It's actually perfect.

If it was perfect, it would not include dead links and editorials.

Each article has various references that can be looked up on the internet.

Then you should start with those. Let me know when you have links to studies and articles.

But I know you don't care about that because you have an agenda. A feminist one.

Axtually, my feminist agenda is why I care.

[Drlee]

Are they reported....are they not reported. Doesn't matter really as long as there is no hostile atmosphere when someone wants to report.....

Once reported, two things happen. The first is that the police/prosecutors decide whether there is real evidence that will allow a successful prosecution in court. This is not a simple analysis of the facts of the case. A lot more goes into a successful prosecution than just laying out the facts such as they are.

Then the victim decides whether he/she wants to go ahead with the prosecution. Many choose not to when faced with the realities of a protracted court battle with no definite outcome.

I am suspicious of statistics on rape. We have so muddied the definition that the biggest problem is describing what we mean when we use it. Then we bag all of the various kinds of "rape" together an build hyperbolic support for whichever 'side' we are on.

My guess (which is as good and anyone's I suspect, is that false rape accusations are rare and prosecutions stemming from false accusations even rarer. (I am talking about court cases not the outrageous character assassination that occasionally happens in the court of public opinion. But I think even that is fairly rare.)

I would also caution not putting much stake in historical rape statistics. The definition of rape from my childhood is quite different from the many used today.

[maz]

Twitter Afire as Rose McGowan Calls #MeToo 'Lie', Then Backtracks on Claim

Actress Rose McGowan, once one of the most vocal #MeToo advocates, who gave momentum to the movement with her sexual assault revelations, has sided with Trump’s supporters, lashed out at Meryl Streep and Hillary Clinton, as well as complained about fellow celebrity campaigners.

Rose McGowan, once one of the #MeToo campaign's leading figures, has slammed the campaign’s celebrity supporters as “douchebags” and complained that she has been excluded from the movement in an interview with The Sunday Times.

“They’re not champions. I just think they’re losers. I don’t like them…How do I explain the fact that I got a GQ Man of the Year award and no women's magazines and no women's organizations have supported me?" McGowan told the newspaper.

The actress, whose revelations about producer Hervey Weinstein allegedly raping her prompted discussions about sexual assault and the predatory behavior of Hollywood power brokers, claimed that she’s been left out of #MeToo events the newspaper described as "campaign lunches or survivors’ brunches."

“And I don’t want to go, because it’s all bulls..t…It’s a lie. It’s a Band-Aid lie to make them feel better. I know these people, I know they’re lily-livered, and as long as it looks good on the surface, to them, that’s enough,” she told the British outlet as she lashed out at the entertainment industry for its outward support of the #MeToo movement.

Criticizing Hollywood, she also sided with the base of Donald Trump, although she distanced herself from supporting the US President’s politics.

“They hate Hollywood for being faux liberals – and they’re 100 percent right about that. It’s a bunch of faux liberals. It’s crap, and they know it is deep down, but they’re living an empty life, and to me that’s their punishment. They get to live the lives they live,” she said in the interview.

Additionally, McGowan took aim at Hillary Clinton and Meryl Streep, whom Trump previously verbally attacked. According to McGowan, it was "literally impossible” that one of the most celebrated actresses knew nothing about Weinstein’s behavior.

Her outspoken criticism of the movement and its advocates within the industry has sparkled debates on Twitter.

Some accused the celebrity, who once co-created the movement, of hypocrisy and attempts to boost her career with #MeToo hype.

I am sure this has nothing to do with McGowan's very public feud with Asia Argento, who threatened legal action against her.