[Hong Wu]

Sometimes, even when you're hesitant about something in life, you still go full steam ahead.

Maybe you'll wake up in the morning and ask yourself what you got up to on PoFo the other day.

[Rancid]

Maybe you'll wake up in the morning and ask yourself what you got up to on PoFo the other day.

Stop being such a whiney nanny panny baby.

[Hindsite]

It is my understanding that the Russians wanted this as much/more than Trump did.

Your understanding is wrong.

[Godstud]

That's one hell of an argument!

You will most surely win captaincy of that grade 1 debate team at your school, Hindsite.

[Crantag]

Some people are putting the cart in front of the horse.

Was there collusion? And if so, what was the motive?

These are separate questions.

The first one is the subject of legal investigation which, while not fully independent of the second, is still distinct.

The question of the motive is basis enough for leisurely speculation at this point, but no conclusions can flow from this.

[Godstud]

Was there collusion? They have already identified that Russia interfered with the US democratic system. That's fact. They are investigating extent of it.

Motive? Winning the election through hook or crook, by Trump and his cronies.

[Hindsite]

Was there collusion? They have already identified that Russia interfered with the US democratic system. That's fact. They are investigating extent of it.

Not true. Russia is only suspected of interfering in the elections. So far, there is no evidence of any Russian interference with the elections and many of the states refuse to release voting information so that it can be checked.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html

[Crantag]

Was there collusion? They have already identified that Russia interfered with the US democratic system. That's fact. They are investigating extent of it.

Motive? Winning the election through hook or crook, by Trump and his cronies.

I agree, but I don't know that the collusion thing has been absolutely solidified, just yet.

I specifically had in mind those who think the notion that Trump didn't want to be president disproves that there was collusion.

In particular, whether there was collusion is independently verifiable of whether Trump, in his heart of hearts, wanted to be president.

If it is an article of fact that there was indeed collusion (which we are near to, though probably not yet at), speculation of whether Trump indeed, in his heart of hearts didn't really even want to be president, is a topic for independent analysis, and can't be taken as factual contradiction of the original premise, e.g., that there was collusion.

As such, it is possible that the 'in Donald's heart of hearts he may not have wanted to be president' aspect leads to additional details. Maybe he just experienced self-doubt. Maybe it's a mis-characterisation that he didn't want it. Maybe he is a Manchurian candidate.

All are relevant paths to go down. But the main thing is, Donald's introspective thoughts on election night on this front are not necessarily basis for either confirming or disconfirming collusion. The collusion thing is a subject of independent investigation, and the conclusions of that independent investigation provides further basis for analyzing the factor of motives, and not the other way around.

[Hindsite]

I agree, but I don't know that the collusion thing has been absolutely solidified, just yet.

And it never will be, because there was no collusion between Russia and Trump to effect the election. That is all just speculation by the left in an attempt to give an excuse for the loss.

[Crantag]

Not true. Russia is only suspected of interfering in the elections. So far, there is no evidence of any Russian interference with the elections and many of the states refuse to release voting information so that it can be checked.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html

This is a strawman.

The issue of whether Russia engaged in direct activities like specifically hacking into electronic voting boxes to switch votes, is a matter for which there is official uncertainty (the authorities state in official capacities that they are not sure).

That's a separate issue from collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign.

However, if the Russians and the Trump campaign specifically colluded in this latter sort of election fraud, now that would be quite a doozy.

What's more, the article you linked is about Trump's kangaroo voter fraud commission, which he created to try to prove his own ridiculous claim about millions of illegals voting.

It is not as though Trump was trying to get to the bottom of the collusion between himself and Russia, and the States are standing in the way of his quest for truth.

[Hindsite]

This is a strawman.

The issue of whether Russia engaged in direct activities like specifically hacking into electronic voting boxes to switch votes, is a matter for which there is official uncertainty (the authorities state in official capacities that they are not sure).

The 3 intelligence agencies that have been claimed to have evidence of Russian hacking into the DNC have been unable to produce such evidence to Congress. So that is all speculation, too.

That's a separate issue from collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign.

It may be, but it could help in determining if the elections were actually effected by outside forces.

However, if the Russians and the Trump campaign specifically colluded in this latter sort of election fraud, now that would be quite a doozy.

Yes, it would. That just proves how absurd this idea has become.

What's more, the article you linked is about Trump's kangaroo voter fraud commission, which he created to try to prove his own ridiculous claim about millions of illegals voting.

It is not as though Trump was trying to get to the bottom of the collusion between himself and Russia, and the States are standing in the way of his quest for truth.

That may be true, but it could also prove if the election was valid and if there were fraudulent votes by anyone, including the Russians.

[Hong Wu]

Trump could be proven to be a Russian mafia patsy who was forced to become President against his will and at this point, I'm honestly not sure how much it would matter. The left basically argued that the past year was impossible (e.g., "the missing jobs won't come back, 3% GDP growth is impossible" and so-on) and now that people know they were wrong, no one can put the MAGA genie back in the bottle.

[Crantag]

Well, I guess maybe Hillary would have had us at war with Russia by now, maybe that's why the markets responded like they did.

She's the one after all who quoted Julius Caesar after her State Department basically overthrew the government of Libya and Gaddafi had been lynched in the street by a mob.

I believe it was also her State Department which had a hand in the coup in Kiev, which basically started the Ukraine Civil War.

And people want to blame Trump for the destruction of the State Department...

I'm starting to think that it was necessary for Trump to be elected, and then duly removed from office.

[The Immortal Goon]

The left basically argued that the past year was impossible (e.g., "the missing jobs won't come back, 3% GDP growth is impossible" and so-on) and now that people know they were wrong, no one can put the MAGA genie back in the bottle.

I think the left argued that capitalism was problematic and that it didn’t really matter which corporate shill was in the White House doing the exact same thing for the exact same reason as advised by the exact same people for the exact same people.

[Rancid]

Trump may have wanted the info on Hillary, not to win the election, but to make history be creating intense scandal around the Clintons.\

I think Trump is more interested in getting his name in the history books, than running a country and helping the morons that elected.

[skinster]

Was there collusion? They have already identified that Russia interfered with the US democratic system. That's fact.

Do you have evidence for this? I mean, I don't even know how much sense this makes since Clinton won the popular vote anyway, and it was American democracy that placed Trump in the White House.

It is my understanding that the Russians wanted this as much/more than Trump did.

That could be correct since Clinton was happily ready to go to war with them in Syria, amongst other shit that happened under her and Obama with regards to Russia, but that still doesn't seem to point to any "collusion".

[Heisenberg]

By far the most ridiculous consequence of the past year is the fact that supposedly educated people now make a proud show of ignorant, paranoid Russophobia.

"The Russians" (because we now have to talk about Russia as though it is a hive-mind, rather than a country) weren't actively for Trump. All the evidence seems to suggest that Putin and the Russian government couldn't care less about him, but rather, wanted Clinton to lose. Given Clinton's history of actively antagonising Russia as Secretary of State, it's hardly a major scoop to learn that the Russian government doesn't like her. Furthermore, given the US's recent foreign policy history, going on and on and on about "Russian interference" when it basically amounted to a few silly Facebook troll-ads, displays a lack of self-awareness on a colossal scale.

Of course, the Democrats are notoriously tin-eared and insular, so they will continue to run with this utterly pointless story until it costs them another election to the most embarrassing president in US history.

[skinster]

Of course, the Democrats are notoriously tin-eared and insular, so they will continue to run with this utterly pointless story until it costs them another election to the most embarrassing president in US history.

I think the Russiagate nonsense is meant to go on until at least the next election, so that Dems can continue to not have any introspection as to why they lost (shit candidate) to an obnoxious reality TV guy, in 2016.

[Heisenberg]

I suspect you're right. I might have to learn Hillary Clinton's "alternate nostril breathing techniques" to keep me from throwing my computer out the window at this rate.

[skinster]

Thankfully I don't know many in earl people who believe this nonsense.