[skinster]

I might have. I started working there in 1999 when I turned 18 and left a little after that and then went back a couple of times but left again because I wanted to be on the other side of the bar more. I can't believe they want to make it into fucking flats.

[Decky]

Hopefully Corbyn will get in soon and there will be no need to build new homes as he will send Momentum to confiscate all property and make sure that everyone has somewhere to live.

[Godstud]

OK, that's a lie. I support the death penalty for people who answer their phones during movies, smoke during dinner, and who don't signal when they change lanes. I am exempted from the last, however, since my motorbike doesn't have rear signals, and I go too fast to worry about, anyways.

I support the death penalty for people who move in next to pubs that have been playing live music for decades (sometimes longer than the individual has been alive) and then grass them up to council over noise complaints to try and get them to stop having live music.

QFT.

[Crantag]

In a heavily class-based society like the US, the death penalty is inherently unjust. In more progressive societies like China or Vietnam, it can act as an effective deterrent to cavalier and conspicuous corruption on the part of those especially egregious criminal bankers, corporate executives, drug manufacturers, bribe-taking officials, etc.

Just a few examples:
China executes Ferrari-loving billionaire 'gangster'


China executes rogue trader, millions still missing

China executes former banker for embezzlement

China Executes More Corrupt Millionaires… While In America, AIG Swipes Another $249 Million In Bonuses


Vietnam is sentencing corrupt bankers to death, by firing squad


22 Chinese People Who Were Handed The Death Sentence For White Collar Crime

[Suntzu]

I kinda like the idea of executing the rich.

[Godstud]

I disagree. There is a better way to dispose of the rich.

@Heisenberg Thailand's last use of the death penalty was in 2009. It's rarely used, and they are working towards getting rid of it.
http://www.khaosodenglish.com/politics/ ... uaranteed/

[Negotiator]

I cant think of a single good thing about the death penalty. It only has strong disadvantages, and an ambundance of those.

- Its by very definition a killing of innocents, i.e. murder. Not everyone who is found guilty was actually guilty; some will be innocent. Thus having the death penalty is by very definition agreeing to murder.

- Its uncivilized and violates human rights. The death penalty is the killing of a sentient being. Unlike say the slaughter of an animal, a sentient being will know whats coming, making this an unavoidably a gross cruelty and thus always violates human rights.

- It de-facto justifies murder. Because if its OK for the state to kill whoever they dont like, why cant people kill whoever they dont like ? Its the exact same logic in both cases.

- Unlike some people fool themselves, the death penalty is the most expensive of all penalties. Thats because anyone on death row will fight back with maximum force, keeping expensive specialists busy for months and years, causing millions of dollars of cost.

- Its not a penalty. A penalty is something you attone with, and learn from. The death "penalty" doesnt teach anyone anything - it just discards people. Theres no attonement either, its just plain revenge.

- It doesnt work. People who commit murder etc arent stopped by the death penalty. It doesnt even lower crime rates. It only brutalizes society as a whole.

[Suntzu]

The death penalty stops recidivism every time. The Bible calls for the death penalty for working on Saturday, how can the death penalty be wrong for murder?

[Godstud]

A Bible that says, "Thou shalt not kill", as one of the top commandments, tells people there is a death penalty? How contradictory is that?

[Ganeshas Rat]

A Bible that says, "Thou shalt not kill", as one of the top commandments, tells people there is a death penalty? How contradictory is that?

Actually not contradictory. Thou shalt not kill cause thou has no right to kill, any life is the property of thy Lord. However the Lord has the right to kill and Bible lists the reasons for God to decide your life doesn't matter anymore.

[Suntzu]

A more accurate translation would be, "Thou shalt not commit murder."

[Heisenberg]

- Its by very definition a killing of innocents, i.e. murder. Not everyone who is found guilty was actually guilty; some will be innocent. Thus having the death penalty is by very definition agreeing to murder.

Far more people are killed in car accidents every day than are wrongly executed in capital cases. Does this mean that allowing private ownership of automobiles is "by very definition a killing of innocents, i.e. murder"?

- Its uncivilized and violates human rights. The death penalty is the killing of a sentient being. Unlike say the slaughter of an animal, a sentient being will know whats coming, making this an unavoidably a gross cruelty and thus always violates human rights.

Indeed, that is kind of the point. But then, what "human right" does this violate? The Universal Declaration of Human Rights doesn't prohibit capital punishment in itself.

- It de-facto justifies murder. Because if its OK for the state to kill whoever they dont like, why cant people kill whoever they dont like ? Its the exact same logic in both cases.

Who on earth claims that it is "OK for the state to kill whoever they don't like", apart from the most autistic fascist? Advocates of the death penalty say it is OK to execute someone lawfully after they have been proved guilty of murder beyond a reasonable doubt in a fair and open trial. That's not at all "whoever they don't like". So no, it isn't the "exact same logic", at all.

Unlike some people fool themselves, the death penalty is the most expensive of all penalties. Thats because anyone on death row will fight back with maximum force, keeping expensive specialists busy for months and years, causing millions of dollars of cost.

This is only true in the USA, which has a deliberately convoluted legal system.

- Its not a penalty. A penalty is something you attone with, and learn from. The death "penalty" doesnt teach anyone anything - it just discards people. Theres no attonement either, its just plain revenge.

A "penalty" is a punishment, not "something you learn from". And it isn't "revenge", since it's carried out by a dispassionate actor - in fact, it's designed specifically to prevent revenge killings by the family/friends of the victim.

- It doesnt work. People who commit murder etc arent stopped by the death penalty. It doesnt even lower crime rates. It only brutalizes society as a whole.

The argument over deterrence is actually quite complicated, and it's hard to say one way or the other whether the death penalty lowers crime, once the statistics are considered properly.

For what it's worth, I think the death penalty as it is practised in the USA - racially biased sentencing, pointlessly complicated appeals, extremely long waits from sentencing to execution, etc - is a disgrace and may as well be abolished. But none of those things are a problem with capital punishment in principle.

[4cal]

Monday 26 February 2018
Death row inmate in great pain after gory and torturous botched execution, says lawyer
Executioners spent two and a half hours turning the killer onto his stomach, slapping his legs, to find a vein, says his lawyer.




https://news.sky.com/story/death-row-in ... r-11268407

Disagree completely.

Has not deterred the crime one iota. The entire judicial system is a wholesale failure.

[Negotiator]

How does China get away with it then?

Because they dont have a working law system over there ? You get the death penalty, you get killed soon after. Possibly by harvesting you for organs while you're still alife, as some especially gruesome rumors go.

In other countries the convicts will keep expensive specialists busy for years and decades because - surprise ! - nobody wants to get killed. This is why a death penalty costs millions.

China dont give a fuck about what the west think

they know that their time will come and in a few decades they will dominate the world

I think thats most highly unlikely. China will turn into a superpower, obviously, but so will Russia, India, and probably even more. And the USA will most likely stay a superpower, even if there is a danger of them breaking down.

Having only a single superpower, like it is now, is obviously a very bad situation.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Russia will not turn to a superpower their GDP will be far behind India China the US and many other countries

just like now

Russia only have a strong army but its still not a superpower because it have little economical power

[One Degree]

Most of my arguments have been made. Executions should be immediately after the trial. The argument that mistakes are irreversible is not logical. Since when has perfection been a requirement for any human endeavor?
The possible suffering of innocents for the good of society is necessary reasoning.

[Godstud]

The possible suffering of innocents for the good of society is necessary reasoning.

Since when? The whole point of the justice system is to prevent the suffering of innocents.

[One Degree]

:eh: Since when? The whole point of the justice system is to prevent the suffering of innocents.

No it isn’t. It is to insure compliance with community standards. Your view is another recent distortion by those with an obsession with individual rights. You attemp to change reality by simply saying it is now something else.

[Heisenberg]

The way liberals talk about "justice", you'd think the courts were a branch of the health department.

Of course, as an interesting parallel, there are roughly 100 deaths a year reported following vaccinations. Does this mean that we should become anti-vaxxers, because the point of public health initiatives is to protect people from illness, rather than to cause it?

Medical malpractice is the third leading cause of death in the US, with 250,000 deaths per year. Should we therefore outlaw surgery for the same reason?

[Godstud]

The death penalty does prevent re-offense, but it serves as no deterrent. People who commit the crimes do so, regardless. There are far too many cases of innocent people imprisoned for the death penalty to be justified, and that's why all the civilized countries of the world have done away with it. I am glad the USA stands amongst such great civilizations like Saudi Arabia and North Korea, in it's willingness to forget about human rights on whimsy.