[Zionist Nationalist]

Palestinians threaten Israels border, Palestinians get shot at and killed. Israel threatens Palestinian border, Palestinians get shot at and killed.

Israel is an untenable state, they are the greatest nuclear threat to this planet. Even more so than America

Palestine have no borders its not a country

[noir]

Hhe's Irish. They love the cause

[Albert]

I support one state solution where Israel takes over Palestine.

[noir]

After decades of hate cult indoctrination, Israel doen't want them. Neither Egypt who used to administated theit territory until 1967 war. The soloution will probably be immigration to Europe.

[One Degree]

One of the reason the Arab propaganda is so effective in the world is because western mind can't grasp the Muslim way of thinking. How can a person or his family sacrifice their lives just for reward and martyrdom status? These people are pushing their own children to be killed just to put Israel on the dock. And it works. 16 people were killed most of them jihadi terrorists and we read in this thread "massacre", "genocide", "mass murder", while on Syria thousands are killed every day.

I know this is from a few pages back, but it did not look like it was going to get the attention it deserved.
These cultural differences do allow the debate to be driven their way. The America before 1960 would not have this problem. Individual sacrifice was not only accepted, but expected. This is still true in much of the world. Ignoring this distorts the narrative beyond recognition.

[noir]

This culture is despictable

For propaganda gain the sermon stresses, the struggle should be lead by women and children

Even if you agree with the tactic or the cause, the international community should know that the victims are not really victims.

[One Degree]

@noir
I usually avoid this discussion since I do support both sides having a right to self determination. However, it is easy to see how liberal morality is being used to gain the support of the liberal West by people who do not share that morality. They are simply being smart, so I don’t really blame them if they can outfox the West. I do blame the West for being so self righteous it blinds them.
The real tragedy in my view is a world that demands the unique culture of Israel adhere to the liberal self righteous world view. What kind of people can not appreciate a unique culture even if you disagree with their culture. What they do within their own borders should not be our concern. This would include attempted incursions into their border, peaceful or not.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

@One Degree How about they just adhere to the 67 borders and stop their illegal expansion into what little lebensraum the Palestinians have left.

[noir]

The Irish had no problem with the real lebensraum. This cause is just excuse.

[jessupjonesjnr87]

The Irish know first hand the atrocities and injustices that are suffered at the hands of invading forces.

[One Degree]

@One Degree How about they just adhere to the 67 borders and stop their illegal expansion into what little lebensraum the Palestinians have left.

I am not going to get drawn into this. Deciding where borders should be is the cause of conflict, not the solution. This is why I propose all borders should be by lines of latitude and longitude to eliminate this decision being made.

[skinster]

Another popular zionist writer has given up on Israel: This Is Zionism as Racism. This Is Israel at 70

Palestine have no borders its not a country

You spelt Israel wrong (since it has no borders / is an expansionist state).

I support one state solution where Israel takes over Palestine.

Err, that's kind of the status quo today.

[noir]

Some Arab Sunnis are not impressed by the Iranian backed Hamas to destablize the region

Abdallah Al-Hadlaq

"Demonstrations and sit-ins are un-Islamic and are unknown in Muslim history. These are non-Muslim methods that Islam does not accept. Violent demonstrations and sit-ins are negative phenomena that lead to chaos. All this [is based on] religious rulings by qualified fatwa-issuing bodies, and they apply to the calls issued by the terrorist Hamas movement, Iran's ally, to participate in a violent demonstration titled 'the Great Return March' and its call for women and children to lead the terrorists and inciters in breaching the Israeli border fence...
"Despite the organizers' promise to control the marches and demonstrations and keep them non-violent so as not to give the IDF an excuse to use force, [we can assume,] given the violent and aggressive character of the terrorist, pro-Iranian Hamas movement, and its habit of using civilians, [including] women and children, as human shields, [that] these demonstrations and marches will surely turn into violence, destruction and chaos, and will not manage to generate international sympathy for the 'Palestinians'[3] or any support for what they call their rights, especially the 'right of return.'
"The terrorist Palestinian factions decided to organize marches and demonstrations they call 'The Great Return March' near the Gaza-Israel border on the 42nd anniversary of the so-called Land Day. The organizers of these provocative marches and demonstrations began to level [the ground] along the border in order to set up a permanent protest-camp for the demonstrators. The IDF will surely not allow the rabble to cross the security fence [between Israel and] the Gaza Strip, and will handle the events from the perspective of Israel's might and national security. Accordingly, the IDF is making the necessary preparations and bringing in the reinforcements necessary to handle any possible development.
"The Palestinians' previous thuggish and violent marches and protests did not succeed, did not yield international solidarity with the Palestinians, and did not help [improve] the internal [Palestinian] situation by directing the Palestinian anger towards Israel... Israel's concern is that these marches may target [its territory], leading to escalation [of the violence] and to the launching of a larger and more violent operation on May 15, when America's 'Deal of the Century' [is to be revealed] and its decision to move its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem [is to be implemented].
"The IDF may use protest-dispersal means, such as airdropping flyers, shooting in the air and shooting tear-gas canisters in order to keep the marchers from reaching the border zone. The use of force by the IDF cannot be ruled out if [the protesters] try to closely approach the Israel-Gaza border, and then every kind of response may ensue.
"Any Palestinian proposal is doomed to fail, after President Trump took the courageous and correct decision to declare Jerusalem the capital of Israel and to transfer of the U.S. embassy there, and announced the Deal of the Century, to end the eternal conflict between the state of Israel and the unceasing Palestinian stubbornness... [He did this] because Israel-U.S. relations are strategic and have cultural depth, so the U.S. will never conceivably give up [its support for] Israel, which is its foremost ally. The occasional disagreements between them are short-lived and confined to specific opinions and views. Israel serves the broad American plan, and the disagreements between them are negligible.
"Since December 6, 2017, when President Trump declared Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and launched [the process of] moving the U.S. Embassy there, the Palestinian protests have remained very minor, and, according to current assessments, are dwindling to nothing. The Palestinian Authority6 called for protests, but it does not want violent protests. Hamas, on the other hand, tried to exploit this call [for protests] to spark a third intifada, but its efforts were in vain."

https://www.memri.org/reports/kuwaiti-c ... turn-march

[noir]

Official Hamas images. These two look like typical misfits they love to recruit, but before collecting their promised 72 virgins, they had a photo op.

Not from recent days, this Palestinian father is desperate to collect his 3000$

[noir]

[skinster]

30 Palestinians have been murdered by Israeli snipers so far, including a journalist:

He was wearing a vest marked ‘PRESS.’ He was shot dead covering a protest in Gaza.
GAZA CITY — Yaser Murtaja had often filmed from the sky, but he never lived to fulfill his dream of flying on an airplane through the clouds.

The young journalist shot drone images and video for Ain Media, a small Gaza-based news agency he started five years ago. Just two weeks ago, he posted an aerial photo of Gaza City’s port on Facebook. “I wish that the day would come to take this shot when I’m in the air and not on the ground,” he wrote. “My name is Yaser Murtaja. I’m 30 years old. I live in Gaza City. I’ve never traveled!”

It was one of his last posts.

Murtaja, who was married and had a 2-year-old son, died Saturday after being shot the day before while covering protests at the edge of the Gaza Strip.

His work had appeared on networks such as Al Jazeera, and in 2016 he worked as a cameraman for Ai Weiwei’s documentary, “Human Flow,” which covered the global refu­gee crisis, including Palestinians in Gaza. The Chinese visual artist posted photos of Murtaja on his Instagram account on Saturday.

Murtaja had tried tirelessly to see beyond blockaded Gaza, including to travel for a training course with Al Jazeera in Doha, Qatar, but he never managed to leave, friends and family said.

Only a tiny proportion of the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza are ever able to get out due to tight travel restriction by Israel — which says such limitations are necessary for security reasons due to the militant group Hamas controlling the area — and only sporadic opening of the Egyptian border. For many young people, the 140-square-mile strip of territory on the Mediterranean is the only world they know.

Murtaja was laid to rest Saturday in the land he never left. His body was carried through the streets of Gaza City draped in a Palestinian flag and the blue-and-white vest marked “PRESS” that he was wearing when he was shot.

Murtaja, whom friends and family described as ambitious and always smiling, was one of nine people fatally shot on Friday after Israeli troops used live ammunition as tens of thousands of Palestinians gathered to protest at the heavily guarded boundary with Israel.

Five other journalists were injured by live fire, as well, according to the Palestinian Journalists Syndicate. They were clearly identifiable as journalists, the syndicate said, raising further questions over Israel’s insistence that its use of snipers on the crowds at the border is carefully targeted.

The Israeli military said it fired live rounds in a “precise, measured way” as part of its mission to protect Israeli communities near the fence. It said it does not intentionally target journalists and that the circumstances in which the journalists were allegedly hit by Israeli fire were “being looked into.”

Ahmed Murtaja, the slain journalist’s 30-year-old cousin, said the family wants an investigation and has submitted details to a local human rights group.

The Palestinian journalists were at the border covering the latest of the six-week-long “Great March of Return” protests at the border.

The majority of the crowds have been peaceful at the mass rallies, which have drawn first-time demonstrators, as well as families, in what appears to be a wide cross-section of Palestinians in Gaza. However, crowds of largely young men nearer to the fence have thrown rocks and molotov cocktails.

Hamas, which is considered a terrorist group by the United States and Israel, has called on residents to attend the demonstrations, as have other factions in Gaza. Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, who attended a funeral prayer service for Murtaja at al Omri mosque, said the protests are “part of the awareness battle.”

Israel says Hamas is trying to use the demonstrations as a cover to carry out attacks and that shooting is a last resort used to protect its border fence, its soldiers and Israeli communities from “violent rioters” and attacks. But the use of live ammunition against the protesters has been widely criticized by human rights groups, who argue it is illegal.

More than 1,000 people — including nearly 400 on Friday, when a 14-year-old boy was also among those killed — have been shot over the past week, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza.

The Israeli military has said those numbers should be treated with “extreme caution,” but officials have said they cannot confirm whether the numbers are unfeasible compared with the amount of ammunition that has been used.

After the first day of unrest at the border a week ago, the Israel Defense Forces’ official spokesman account tweeted that the military knew where “every bullet landed.” However, that post was later deleted.

While the Palestinians’ numbers are difficult to fully verify, accounts of paramedics, medical officials, surgeons, hospital logs and the sheer pace of gunshot injuries coming from the crowd at points during the protests have all pointed to high figures. Most of those injured with live ammunition were shot in the legs, medics say.

Israel has remained defiant amid criticism of its use of force, saying at least 10 of the 31 people shot dead over the past week are known militants. The Israeli military had dropped leaflets in the lead-up to the protest instructing Palestinians to stay at least 300 meters (328 yards) away from the fence and warning live ammunition would be used.

On Friday, thousands of tires were set ablaze, creating a thick black fog that protesters hoped would guard them from the Israeli snipers.

Shady al Assar, 35, who was with Murtaja just before he was shot, said they were about 100 meters from the border at Khan Younis, in the southern Gaza Strip, when he lost sight of his friend in the thick black smoke. Assar said he picked up his camera to photograph an injured person being carried toward him before realizing it was Murtaja.

Murtaja was wearing a helmet and a protective jacket, according to multiple journalists who saw him. However, the bullet entered his side, rendering the protective plates on his front and back useless, they said.

“He was kind, gentle and caring, eager to become the best journalist he could be, because his aim was always to document the Palestinian people's suffering,” said Rori Don­aghy, a Middle East consultant and former news editor at the Middle East Eye website, who spent time with Murtaja in Gaza. “It’s really sad.”

Of the five other journalists who the reporting syndicate said were injured Friday, several were freelancers, while one was shooting for the European Press Agency, and another worked for the Hamas-affiliated television channel Al-Aqsa.

As he waited at the graveyard for Murtaja’s body to arrive, Wissam Nassar, a freelance photographer who has worked for The Washington Post and the New York Times, said he had exchanged messages with his friend Thursday night to discuss where they would be going for the next day’s demonstrations. It was the last time they were in touch.

Nassar recalled how he had been photographing young men as they waited to try to get permission to cross the border with Egypt in February when he saw Murtaja.

Judging it a near-impossible feat to leave through Israel, Murtaja instead focused his energy on the Egyptian border, which opens sporadically, relatives said.

Murtaja made it through the Palestinian side, his passport stamped on the way out. But upon arrival at the terminal at the Egyptian side, the border had been unexpectedly closed, and he was turned back, Nassar said.

“He joked that he missed Gaza so much, he came back,” said Nassar.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/pa ... 4e6ef17a3a

https://www.memri.org/reports/kuwaiti-c ... turn-march

MEMRI is a pro-Israeli propaganda source with links to Israeli intelligence.

[noir]

Hamas' tire burning successfully blinds Washington Post



I am not happy with the IDF not being forthcoming on the circumstances of its shooting in this and other cases, nor am I happy that they have not published clear criteria that they use before employing live ammunition at the Gaza border.

However, Hamas made it very clear that the entire point of the mass tire burnings was to obscure what people were doing on the ground. There were clearly real attempts to breach the fence. Here's video of how thick the smoke was:

And even the Washington Post admits that the smoke was too thick for people even on the ground with the crowds to see well:

Shady al Assar, 35, who was with Murtaja just before he was shot, said they were about 100 meters from the border at Khan Younis, in the southern Gaza Strip, when he lost sight of his friend in the thick black smoke.
And a different WaPo article said explicitly that the purpose of the smoke was to shield Gazans from sniper fire:

Clouds of thick black smoke billowed across the edges of the Gaza Strip on Friday as Palestinian protesters used burning tires in an attempt to shield themselves from sniper fire as they faced off against heavily armed Israeli troops.
Hamas cannot have it both ways - setting tires on fire to create a smokescreen, and then blaming Israel for not seeing a journalist's PRESS vest. Yet this one-sided coverage shows that Hamas propaganda worked perfectly, and the Washington Post did not mention a word about how Hamas' desire for innocent "martyrs" was what drove the tire protest, not Israel's desire for shooting innocent people as the coverage implies.

Again, the incident needs to be investigated and the IDF has done a terrible job explaining its position. But the only ones who benefit from the accidental shooting of a journalist is Hamas, and the Washington Post was obligated to draw the clear line from Hamas policy to the dead journalist. And in that, it failed.

https://t.co/wHmrJKRXF9?amp=1

[skinster]

^ that blog is written by a hasbara troll. Tires were burned to protect Palestinians from being shot by Israeli snipers. And Palestinians protesting have, as Dad Corbyn said, every right to protest their appalling living conditions.

[One Degree]

If a bunch of people are running at my house and I know their intent is to enter it, then none of them are innocents. I don’t understand what Israel needs to explain or why anyone thinks they deserve an explanation.
This is just part of the one world liberal mindset that even the right accepts because it has been so institutionalized.
It is only your opinion that Israel needs your agreement to their actions.

[skinster]

If a bunch of people are running at my house and I know their intent is to enter it, then none of them are innocents.

Protesting in Gaza does not = running into Israel and no Palestinians attempted to get into Israel anyway, not because they can, but because they know they'd be shot dead from the towers that guard Israel where they have things like automatic weapons attached to them.

Palestinians were protesting on Land Day, as they do every year, a day where Palestinians demonstrate against their living conditions and for their right to return to their homes that they were kicked out of, something enshrined in International Law.

Does the "bunch of people" that are "running into" your house also including zionist militias who ran into the houses of Palestinians in order to steal them?

I don’t understand what Israel needs to explain or why anyone things they deserve an explanation.

Murdering people, including children, in broad daylight is generally considered to be a bad thing, One Degree.