[Crantag]

Immigration steals from the shit countries the exact people they need to become less shit, it only helps capitalists in the devolved world looking for cheap labour and ensures that the rich parts of the world get and even bigger slice of the pie and the poor parts of the world stay poor. Supporters of immigration are enemies of the developing world.

This is an interjection not a total rejection of your line of reasoning; but expatriates of developing countries do provide remittances. In Africa, remittances are proportionally a major source of financial accumulation.

[Sivad]

Immigration steals from the shit countries the exact people they need to become less shit, it only helps capitalists in the devolved world looking for cheap labour and ensures that the rich parts of the world get and even bigger slice of the pie and the poor parts of the world stay poor. Supporters of immigration are enemies of the developing world.

Exactly. Mike's self-righteous smug is unfazed by the fact that his politics are destroying the developing world and exploiting the shit out of desperate immigrants.

But what about the children? Fucking liberals.

[Pants-of-dog]

Exactly. Mike's self-righteous smug is unfazed by the fact that his politics are destroying the developing world and exploiting the shit out of desperate immigrants.

But what about the children? Fucking liberals.

Yes, I completely agree that developing nations should take steps to deal with brain drain. Especially socialist ones.

But there is a difference between immigration policies favouring educated people from the developing world and policy for asylum seekers and their children.

The former is what which is what you and @Decky are discussing, while the latter is what @mikema63 is talking about and is the thread topic.

[Sivad]

Yes, I completely agree that developing nations should take steps to deal with brain drain. Especially socialist ones.

Yeah, we all know you think gulaging is awesome.

But there is a difference between immigration policies favouring educated people from the developing world and policy for asylum seekers and their children.

There is no difference, all of it is bad for everyone except the corporate oligarchs. But I do think those people should be allowed to keep flooding in as long as Mike's neoliberals are corrupting and immiserating the developing world. My beef isn't with the immigrants, it's with the neoliberalism that's driving mass immigration.

[Finfinder]

I'd bother to argue with you but you seem to think I am Mexican and have any control over Mexican politics.

Seeing as I don't plan to invade Mexico and force them at gun point to do the right thing then I can only advocate for the country I am a citizen of and have some tiny little bit of power to influence do the right thing.

Really this idea that because other people somewhere should do something we should focus on that and not do anything is pretty full of shit.

The goal isn't to have the world have perfect solutions. I do not have those. I have the ability to push for what I can, and changing the subject and whining about how someone else won't do it doesn't excuse you from stepping up.

Confusing argument you make. Seems the theme is I'm a better person than you. What other conclusion is there when your idea is virtually a fantasy and very few agree with you. I just don't think you help the argument other than taking the red meat from the OP's thread.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yeah, we all know you think gulaging is awesome.

As long as we agree that you also think that brian drain is a problem for developing countires and that immigration policies that exacerbate this problem are not good for developing countries.

There is no difference, all of it is bad for everyone except the corporate oligarchs.

Yes, there is a difference.

The types of people who come in on the two different systems are very different. The educated immigrant either opens up their own business (becomes a corporate oligarch, in your jargon) or starts working for a business as an educated professional (they make big money for the oligarchs). The asylum seeker does not. They are lucky to end up in refugee camps or working manual labour, where they do not make nearly as much money for the oligarchs.

Educated migrants choose to come. Asylum seekers are compelled to come.

There is no law saying that you must accept educated migrants. The US is a signatory to international treaties that specify that asylum seekers must be granted refuge.

More information here:
http://atha.se/blog/distinguishing-betw ... e-practice

But I do think those people should be allowed to keep flooding in as long as Mike's neoliberals are corrupting and immiserating the developing world. My beef isn't with the immigrants, it's with the neoliberalism that's driving mass immigration.

I completely agree that neoliberalism is one of the main factors driving mass immigration, and that is one of the reasons why I support socialism in the developing world.

But @mikema63 is discussing basic human kindness towards these families who end up so afflicted by these neoliberal policies that they are compelled to migrate. At best, you can accuse mike of dealing with a symptom of the problem instead of the root cause.

And while I agree that dealing with the root cause of immigration is vital, we can also deal with symptoms, such as the break up of families, at the same time.

[Sivad]

As long as we agree that you also think that brian drain is a problem for developing countires and that immigration policies that exacerbate this problem are not good for developing countries.

It's not the immigration policies, it's the neoliberal plundering that's exacerbating it. But whatever's exacerbating it, there's still no excuse for your gulagism.

Yes, there is a difference.

Educated migrants choose to come. Asylum seekers are compelled to come.

Educated migrants are still exploited, the only reason they're allowed in is because they'll work more for less. And they don't have much of a choice to begin with, they're better off than the desperate peasants but their prospects are still pretty limited in their home countries.

why I support socialism in the developing world.

You support gulagism which doesn't help anyone.

But @mikema63 is discussing basic human kindness towards these families who end up so afflicted by these neoliberal policies that they are compelled to migrate. At best, you can accuse mike of dealing with a symptom of the problem instead of the root cause.

@mikema63's politics are the root cause. That's why his moralizing is so

[AFAIK]

I said we could help other countries, mike. The USA has a foreign policy that includes funding for refugee camps, asylum applications and so on. It's capable of cooperating peacefully and doesn't impose this aid at gunpoint. You complain when people disagree with you and then post a bunch of strawmen.

I don't see the compassion in telling people who have reached a safe country that they should risk dying whilst crossing a desert or body of water, should risk getting robbed and raped, should risk their children's safety so that they can live amongst the smug superior liberals.


Britain gives more Aid than any other EU country

Official source

[anarchist23]

It's hard to defend the indefensible.

On Tuesday, Attorney General Jeff Sessions spoke with conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt, explaining why the Trump administration is separating migrant families at the border. "If people don't want to be separated from their children, they should not bring them with them," Sessions said. "We've got to get this message out. You're not given immunity."
The problem for Sessions is that the message is out about this policy, and Americans are not buying it. Attempting to justify splitting up families, Sessions offered several policy explanations about why it was necessary. But his rationale for family separations doesn't hold up. The practice is as inhumane as it sounds.
Under the Trump administration's "zero tolerance" policy, people who cross the southern border illegally will now be criminally prosecuted. Past administrations sometimes prosecuted unauthorized border crossers, but it has never been uniform policy. Because children cannot be held in immigration detention for long periods, the Trump administration has taken to jailing migrant parents and then sending their children into the care of the Department of Health and Human Services. While President Barack Obama also struggled to deal with child migrants at the border, separating children from their parents was not a policy that his administration followed.
Explaining the policy to a skeptical Hewitt, Sessions likened it to how US courts treat children. "Every time somebody, Hugh, gets prosecuted in America for a crime, American citizens, and they go to jail, they're separated from their children," Sessions said. This comparison is a stretch. Children in the United States whose parents get in trouble with the law are typically assigned social workers, case workers and lawyers to monitor their progress through foster care and/or social service agencies.
Lawbreaking US citizens are allowed regular communication with their children.
In contrast, unauthorized migrant parents and children are not always given such privileges or protections. Unlike citizens, immigrants in immigration court do not have the right to a court-appointed lawyer. Moreover, it is difficult for migrant parents and children to obtain legal representation because detention facilities are often in remote locations. And immigrant detention facilities are notoriously lacking in transparency. Sen. Jeff Merkley, an Oregon Democrat, was recently denied access to a Texas detention center to check on how migrant children were being treated.
In their discussion, Sessions told Hewitt, "If you come to the country, you should come through, first, through the port of entry and make a claim of asylum if you have a legitimate asylum claim." The attorney general added that people shouldn't try to get across the border at another location and not expect to be deported. But people who are coming to US ports of entry and attempting to request asylum are being turned away. Texas Monthly reports that some Border Patrol agents are telling asylum seekers that they cannot cross the border because US holding cells are at capacity. How does Sessions expect people with a claim for asylum to exercise that legal right?
More troubling is Sessions' assertion that migrant children who are separated from their parents are "for the most part ... well taken care of." He says so despite admitting he has not visited any of the facilities where migrant children are housed.
Meanwhile, according to The Washington Post, children are being kept in wire-link fence enclosures, like livestock. According to NBC News, hundreds of migrant children taken from their parents are stuck at overcrowded border stations. No wonder everyone from the American Academy of Pediatrics to the UN human rights office opposes this practice.
Sessions and other administration officials have pointed to a deterrence strategy as justifying family separations. Yet there is scant evidence that such a strategy works. The Trump administration says that its new policy reduced border crossings 64% in an El Paso, Texas, sector pilot program; in fact, the crossings actually increased there by 64%, according to an investigation of US Customs and Border Protection data by Vox.
As the head of the Department of Justice, Sessions is the top lawyer of the US government. So it's striking that, in his talk with Hewitt, he did not cite a legal basis for splitting up families. That's because there isn't one. President Donald Trump has tried to blame this policy on a "horrible law" passed by Democrats — but the website Politifact judged these claims to be false.
To his credit, Hewitt pressed Sessions on the family separations, asking the attorney general if he could imagine his grandchildren being taken from their parents. Sessions responded that the United States "can't be a total guarantor that every parent who comes to this country unlawfully with a child is guaranteed ... that they will be able to have their hand on that child the entire time. That's just not the way it works." That Sessions was unwilling to acknowledge the basic human rights of children speaks volumes. Consider that those who suffer the most from family separations are the youngest, most innocent people involved — children who likely had no say in coming to the United States.
Sadly, this is life for vulnerable immigrants under Trump, whether they are Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals grantees living under a cloud of anxiety about their future, the families of undocumented workers arrested in mass immigration raids, or potential asylum seekers.
Trump and his attorney general own the cruelty of family separations. It cannot be justified on policy or legal grounds — and each day it continues is a stain on our nation's legacy.
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/09/opin ... index.html

[Suntzu]

The U.S. could just adopt a policy of not ever granting immunity to anyone who didn't seek immunity in the first country they set foot in. No need to even hear the request, just ship 'em home.

[One Degree]

When you have 30,000 to 40,000 people per month wanting to cross our Southern border, then their impact can not be simply dismissed as “what about the children”. It is no secret they are trying to take advantage of ‘refugee laws’ that were never intended to ‘open our borders’. This is not a matter of compassion, but of common sense.

[Godstud]

If only that were true. it's not.

More Mexican immigrants have returned to Mexico from the U.S. than have migrated here since the end of the Great Recession, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from both countries. The same data sources also show the overall flow of Mexican immigrants between the two countries is at its smallest since the 1990s, mostly due to a drop in the number of Mexican immigrants coming to the U.S.
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/m ... o-the-u-s/

Immigration Facts: Number of Migrants from Mexico is Actually Declining
https://www.amerinursery.com/american-n ... ion-facts/

[One Degree]

If only that were true. it's not.

More Mexican immigrants have returned to Mexico from the U.S. than have migrated here since the end of the Great Recession, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from both countries. The same data sources also show the overall flow of Mexican immigrants between the two countries is at its smallest since the 1990s, mostly due to a drop in the number of Mexican immigrants coming to the U.S.
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/m ... o-the-u-s/

Immigration Facts: Number of Migrants from Mexico is Actually Declining
https://www.amerinursery.com/american-n ... ion-facts/

This only applies to those granted entry. My figures are the ones not allowed entry or pending their entry.
This is 30-40 thousand per month in addition to your figures.

[Godstud]

Really? Please provide a source for this amazing claim. I am sure it's false.

[One Degree]

Really? Please provide a source for this amazing claim. I am sure it's false.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

[Godstud]

You really need to read your own information. It's been on a decline for the last few years.

In May a total of 40,344 individuals were apprehended between ports of entry on our Southwest Border, compared with 38,278 in April and 37,385 in March. In Fiscal Year (FY) 2017, USBP apprehended 303,916 individuals along our Southwest Border, compared to 408,870 in FY16, 331,333 in FY15, and 479,371 in FY14.

An increase of a few percent but an overall decline over the last few years.

[blackjack21]

You really need to read your own information. It's been on a decline for the last few years.

It's a declining issue then, so no need to worry about it.

[Godstud]

I expect childish comments like that from you, @blackjack21. Thanks for keeping it real.

Separating children from their parents is still unacceptable.

[blackjack21]

I expect childish comments like that from you, @blackjack21. Thanks for keeping it real.

Separating children from their parents is still unacceptable.

That's how the entire criminal justice system works Godstud. We're not going to make exceptions for illegal aliens. There is nothing special about them in the criminal justice system. Equal justice under law.

[Godstud]

Except that many times these people are not criminals. so treating them like them, isn't reasonable, or rational. Refugees are not criminals by default.