Trumps separating Central American children from their parents. Is this acceptable? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Under Trumps administration separating children from their parents is now a common practice in southern United States.

The United Nations has urged Washington to immediately halt its controversial practice of separating asylum-seeking Central American children from their parents at the southern border.

The UN human rights office said it was deeply concerned over the zero tolerance policy introduced by the Trump administration to deter illegal immigration.

The spokeswoman Ravina Shamdasani said the policy had “led to people caught entering the country irregularly being subjected to criminal prosecution and having their children – including extremely young children – taken away from them as a result”.

She said information received from US civil society groups indicated that several hundred children had been separated from their parents at the border since October, including a one-year-old.

“The US should immediately halt this practice,” she told reporters in Geneva. “The practice of separating families amounts to arbitrary and unlawful interference in family life, and is a serious violation of the rights of the child.

“The use of immigration detention and family separation as a deterrent runs counter to human rights standards and principles,” she said.

Shamdasani stressed that children’s rights were generally held in high regard in the US, but expressed regret that it was the only country in the world not to have ratified the UN convention on the rights of the child.

Despite this, she insisted, Washington was bound by international human rights laws that its current practices were flouting.

“The child’s best interest should always come first, including over migration management objectives or other administrative concerns,” she said.

“It is therefore of great concern that in the US, migration control appears to have been prioritised over the effective care and protection of migrant children.”

“Detention is never in the best interests of the child and always constitutes a child rights violation,” she said, calling on Washington to “adopt non-custodial alternatives that allow children to remain with their families”.

The US says the policy aims to stem a surge in the number of poor families, mostly from Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras, entering the country.

Thousands cross the US-Mexico border each week and immediately turn themselves in to authorities asking for asylum, citing the daily violence in their home countries.

William Spindler, of the UN refugee agency, said “the right to claim asylum is a fundamental human right... and it is also part of the law in the United States”.

Donald Trump tweeted on the issue on Tuesday, blaming the opposition party. “Separating families at the Border is the fault of bad legislation passed by the Democrats,” he wrote. “Border Security laws should be changed but the Dems can’t get their act together! Started the Wall.”

The policy of separating families at the border was announced by Trump’s attorney general and implemented by Trump’s administration.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... om-parents
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Wendy Young, president of the advocacy group Kids in Need of Defense told the Post it is the Trump administration's decision to separate children from their families is what sets it apart from enforcing "the most aggressive response to Central American migration we've seen to date."
She said it is "disingenuous to couch this as a continuation" of Obama's policies.
“What’s happened is the exception to the rule is now becoming the rule,” Young said.
“Here they’re doing zero-tolerance policy to punish families and send a message to their home countries: Don’t do this.”

http://www.newsweek.com/trump-administr ... ver-949099
#14922457
For once, I agree with @blackjack21.

Immigration laws exist for a reason, and this "think of the children" stuff is an entirely cynical attempt to circumvent them. People seem to be under the mistaken impression that there is a fundamental human right to move to the USA.
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“The US should immediately halt this practice,” she told reporters in Geneva. “The practice of separating families amounts to arbitrary and unlawful interference in family life, and is a serious violation of the rights of the child.

“The use of immigration detention and family separation as a deterrent runs counter to human rights standards and principles,” she said.


I think children should be detained together with their parents. In some prisons, there is a prison nursery that houses incarcerated mothers and their children.

Prison nursery programs allow departments of correction to positively intervene in the lives of both incarcerated mothers and their infant children. The number of prison nurseries in the United States has risen dramatically in the past decade, yet there remains a significant gap between predominant correctional policy in this area and what is known about parenting and infant development. Using Kingdon’s streams metaphor, this article examines the recent convergence of problem, policy, and political events related to incarcerated women with infant children and argues that this has created a window of opportunity for development of prison nursery programs. Aday’s policy analysis criteria are also used to analyze available evidence regarding the effectiveness, efficiency, and equity of prison nursery programs as policy alternatives for incarcerated women with infant children.
#14922574
Immigration laws exist for a reason, and this "think of the children" stuff is an entirely cynical attempt to circumvent them. People seem to be under the mistaken impression that there is a fundamental human right to move to the USA.


I would like to say, mostly seriously but also because it'll be funny to watch some on here freak out, that I think anyone who is not actively dangerous should be allowed to move to the united states and indeed I would like to see that treated as a human right.

People should be able to move their families to safer places and make a life for themselves. Empathy is not some cynical ploy but a basic way we should live our lives so that we don't become bitter assholes who think it's edgy and smart to applaud traumatizing children.
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mikema63 wrote:I would like to say, mostly seriously but also because it'll be funny to watch some on here freak out, that I think anyone who is not actively dangerous should be allowed to move to the united states and indeed I would like to see that treated as a human right.

People should be able to move their families to safer places and make a life for themselves. Empathy is not some cynical ploy but a basic way we should live our lives so that we don't become bitter assholes who think it's edgy and smart to applaud traumatizing children.


Sure, there are only about 6 billion of them. California could take a 100 million and cut the water ration to 10 gallon a day.
Nice to see you posting though. :)
#14922587
The glib argument about california (or whatever random thing your talking about) is that people wont move there if it's not a good place to move to.

The better argument is that we shouldn't make people suffer unnecessarily because we have some amorphous fear that the entire world will inexplicably decide to move to the united states.

Having basic compassion should be our first priority, not some after thought far down on a list of our fears about loosing out in some way.

These are people that face extreme violence, danger, hunger, and poverty. We should seek to help them, even if it did cost us a little bit to do so. Which by the way includes doing things that improve their lives in their homes too. It's not like they all fill a deep patriotic desire to become americans and leave their family and friends behind.
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mikema63 wrote:I would like to say, mostly seriously but also because it'll be funny to watch some on here freak out, that I think anyone who is not actively dangerous should be allowed to move to the united states and indeed I would like to see that treated as a human right.

Then you should push for this to be stated explicitly in the Democrats' next election manifesto, so voters know that this is what you stand for.

The current tactic of cheering on human traffickers from the sidelines, and hoping the border situation essentially reaches breaking point, is hardly the "empathetic" way to achieve this aim. Particularly when there are many thousands of people who are going through the legitimate channels to get into the US.
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I hold the position quite openly, unfortunately I don't represent the democratic party writ large. However in the next shadowy smoke filled room I'm in I will bring the topic up.

More seriously, I'm not speaking on behalf of a large nationwide political organization nor am I speaking to the entire country.

I'm speaking for myself to you, asking you to have a little compassion towards these children who are being made to needlessly suffer for no particular reason even to those who desire to stop all immigration. It's needlessly cruel to support or celebrate.
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@mikema63 Perhaps I was glib, but it was meant to make a serious point. The US does not have an infinite capacity. We have faced water problems in many locations. The idea that adding huge numbers to our population is being open hearted is insane. Taking one person into my home is compassionate. Taking a 100 in is being irresponsible and will only hurt everyone.
How many do you think the US can support indefinitely? I think it is 100 million.
#14922596
Assuming todays technology and also assuming that we want to keep the national park system intact (it represents a quarter of all land). And probably a few other assumptions about where people would end up (I'm assuming they head for the cities and they support far more people per acre than other ways of living).

Then by allowing cities to expand we could house a bit over a billion.

Assuming we have technological advancements in energy we could desalinate water on a large scale and have 2-3 billion.

Needless to say I consider your beliefs about population size and capacity to be incorrect in general.
#14922597
We already have evidence we are using up our aquifers faster than nature is replenishing them. This is a huge possible catastrophe facing the Southwest. This should be a reminder that you can not keep adding people and think technology will make it alright. We are already using up resources that should compassionately be reserved for the future.
#14922599
If your view is that water is unreplenishable then it makes little difference.

On the contrary aquifers run dry because it's cheaper to get water that way. People will still have water, which will be more expensive. Desalination already exists, it's an established technology that populations already get water from. It is just more expensive than other ways.

I do agree that it would be more compassionate to make it harder to get water from auquifers through rationaing and policy. Sinkholes are quite dangerous and we should encourage the infrastructure development sooner rather than later.

All that being said embracing cruel policy against children because you are scared about aquifers and nodding sagely as if that isn't cynical narcissism but some deep wisdom comes off as silly.
#14922604
I don’t see any cruelty to children other than their parents bringing them along while committing a crime. We take US parents from their children also when we incarcerate them. This is a hollow argument.
Is placing US kids in temporary shelters cruel? Should we abolish foster homes as a cruelty? Show me evidence these kids are actually being mistreated.
As far as carrying capacity, every year we lose more farmland and every year fresh water becomes a bigger problem. South America is less densely populated than the US. Population should be distributed based upon harmony with natural resources, not political idealism.
#14922612
I don’t see any cruelty to children other than their parents bringing them along while committing a crime.


Quite frankly I find this statement reprehensible, disgusting, and willfully ignorant. You are not an idiot incapable of understanding that taking a child away from their family and housing them away from everyone they have ever known is traumatizing and cruel. That you excuse this, or willfully ignore it, because you like a cruel policy that prevents people who are fleeing oppression and violence and treats them like a murderer says a great deal about your character.

The rest of the drivel that follows this statement is equally the drivel of a man driven by personal fears and selfishness to excuse open cruelty against people who deserve compassion.

These are people seeking a better life, people and children who have been oppressed, brutalized, seen family murdered, and live in poverty we would never know or have to face. And what greets them but people like you who are so overwhelmingly concerned with their own well being and fear that they can't even devise a policy that doesn't rip children from their parents. Literally unnecessary to any border enforcement policy, you could house them with their parents with not only no extra effort, but less.

But no, we must applaud traumatizing children and declare refugees on par with rapists and murders because something something harmony with nature which is an argument so wrong and made in such bad faith that I can barely fathom what happened to you in your life to make you so completely wrapped up in some vague notions rather than the living suffering of other human beings.
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