[Albert]

Like him or not, this is true. Illegal immigration is very unpopular with the electorate. That in itself is the very reason the government should attempt to stop it. My solution is to go after employers because I know that would work. Nevertheless, POD seems to argue that our government should go against the will of the people who elected them. I find that position heartwarming but dangerous. They do too much of that now.




Of course this is true. I know of few people who would disagree.

POD posits that we are bound by treaty and law to deal with these asylum claims. I don't disagree. The thing is that the laws and treaties were never designed or even imagined to deal with a problem of this magnitude. Something has to give. I believe it is the procedures that should change. Of course we need more immigration judges. That will make a broken system make wrong decisions faster. That's all. What I believe we need to do is to make asylum seekers explain why they didn't go to the nearest safe-havens and risk life and children in the long trip to the US.

I have no problem with larger immigration numbers. I approve of limited amnesty for those who have been here, productively for a long time. I want the so-called dreamers protected. But I do not believe that every 20 year old woman who shows up on our southern border carrying a child which may or may not be hers, is fleeing a gang that is trying, for no apparent reason, to kill her. Same for the men. At some point we need to force the men to stand and fight rather than run away.

Heartless? Maybe a little.

What needs to be considered further is social factors of immigration. For society to function properly I believe there needs to be a unifying identity and culture where people can easily understand and get along with one another. The current level of immigration and the way it is being conducted does not facilitate unity and cohesion within society. The new arrived immigrants are not assimilating into mainstream American society; in process this alienates the immigrants and Americans from each other and society in general.

If looking back to American history it took generation or two for European immigrants to assimilate into the mainstream American society, sometimes it took force to assimilate them, as for example with German immigrants.

[One Degree]

There are many small communities throughout the US that are not fully assimilated such as the Amish and even German towns in Texas. They are not a problem because they are not ‘expansionist’. They are content to be left alone.
The problem arises when Black culture, Latino culture, Muslim culture, etc. demand nationwide acceptance as American culture. This is a demand for cultural change by others that the ‘non expansionist’ don’t ask for.
It is also not a white versus minority debate as is falsely accused. All of these groups are in competition for dominance with one another. An ‘overthrow’ of European culture will solve nothing as then the alliances will simply change.

[Drlee]

The problem arises when Black culture, Latino culture, Muslim culture, etc. demand nationwide acceptance as American culture. This is a demand for cultural change by others that the ‘non expansionist’ don’t ask for.

Nonsense. What exactly is it that they do not do to integrate into the culture? Wear funny underwear like the Mormons? Wear a headscarf like some fundamentalist Christians do?
I don't even understand why you would use the term "expansionist" for people who simply want to live and work alongside their native born neighbors.

It is also not a white versus minority debate as is falsely accused. All of these groups are in competition for dominance with one another.

More nonsense. You are trying to justify your bigotry with a simple "they do it too" argument. IMO the only group set on any kind of dominance is that of Native Born Whites. SOME of them are frightened because they have been moved by rhetoric like yours.

When it comes to the isolation of Muslim communities, can you blame them? They have not been welcomed with open arms. I am not for increased immigration from that region at all but a little understanding might help those who are here.

When it comes to Latinos the elephant in the corner is their immigration status. They live in insular communities for mutual protection. If we get a handle on their status they will integrate. It is hard to integrate when you are literally fleeing the law. Like it or not, they are here and they are not going anywhere. We may "get" a few of them but any real attempt to get them all will be squashed by powerful business interests in a heartbeat. The reason that republicans do not want a path to citizenship for those who have been living among us peacefully and working productively for decades is that they fear these immigrants will vote democrat. Looking at the current administration and its overtly racist policies, I am sure they will.

An ‘overthrow’ of European culture will solve nothing as then the alliances will simply change.

Three things.

The term "European Culture" is a dog-whistle for "white". That said. I am not a European, I am an American. We are old enough and distinct enough to separate ourselves from European culture. And that is to allow that you somehow think that British culture is the same as Italian culture. That the Danes and the Greeks share a common culture. I can assure you that they are not so sure of that. If you traveled in Europe you would be wary of even using the term "European Culture". I could even, under the right circumstances, make a case for Europe being more "American" than we whites are European. The US. for the past few decades at least, has been the dominant cultural influence in the world. Japan, China, Russia....all more "American" now than 50 years ago. And in some ways, looking back 50 years, more American than we are now.

I would further assert that we white Americans offer as much diversity in culture (or more) than do our recent immigrants. By that I mean that the difference between a Southern American and a North Western American is culturally "more different" than is the cultural difference between a Latino Arizonian and a white Arizonian.

Finally.

I see no evidence that there is any effort to supplant American culture with that of somewhere else. We have always been a very diverse place. We fought our most bloody war over that diversity of culture. Now there seems to be some distilling of what it means to be an American and some people are fighting it tooth and nail. Trump understands this and it is keeping him afloat. The "if you hear banjos paddle faster" crowd is all over his fear campaign.

[One Degree]

Nonsense. What exactly is it that they do not do to integrate into the culture? Wear funny underwear like the Mormons? Wear a headscarf like some fundamentalist Christians do?
I don't even understand why you would use the term "expansionist" for people who simply want to live and work alongside their native born neighbors.



More nonsense. You are trying to justify your bigotry with a simple "they do it too" argument. IMO the only group set on any kind of dominance is that of Native Born Whites. SOME of them are frightened because they have been moved by rhetoric like yours.

When it comes to the isolation of Muslim communities, can you blame them? They have not been welcomed with open arms. I am not for increased immigration from that region at all but a little understanding might help those who are here.

When it comes to Latinos the elephant in the corner is their immigration status. They live in insular communities for mutual protection. If we get a handle on their status they will integrate. It is hard to integrate when you are literally fleeing the law. Like it or not, they are here and they are not going anywhere. We may "get" a few of them but any real attempt to get them all will be squashed by powerful business interests in a heartbeat. The reason that republicans do not want a path to citizenship for those who have been living among us peacefully and working productively for decades is that they fear these immigrants will vote democrat. Looking at the current administration and its overtly racist policies, I am sure they will.



Three things.

The term "European Culture" is a dog-whistle for "white". That said. I am not a European, I am an American. We are old enough and distinct enough to separate ourselves from European culture. And that is to allow that you somehow think that British culture is the same as Italian culture. That the Danes and the Greeks share a common culture. I can assure you that they are not so sure of that. If you traveled in Europe you would be wary of even using the term "European Culture". I could even, under the right circumstances, make a case for Europe being more "American" than we whites are European. The US. for the past few decades at least, has been the dominant cultural influence in the world. Japan, China, Russia....all more "American" now than 50 years ago. And in some ways, looking back 50 years, more American than we are now.

I would further assert that we white Americans offer as much diversity in culture (or more) than do our recent immigrants. By that I mean that the difference between a Southern American and a North Western American is culturally "more different" than is the cultural difference between a Latino Arizonian and a white Arizonian.

Finally.

I see no evidence that there is any effort to supplant American culture with that of somewhere else. We have always been a very diverse place. We fought our most bloody war over that diversity of culture. Now there seems to be some distilling of what it means to be an American and some people are fighting it tooth and nail. Trump understands this and it is keeping him afloat. The "if you hear banjos paddle faster" crowd is all over his fear campaign.

I said...

The problem arises when Black culture, Latino culture, Muslim culture, etc. demand nationwide acceptance as American culture. This is a demand for cultural change by others that the ‘non expansionist’ don’t ask for.

You said...

Nonsense. What exactly is it that they do not do to integrate into the culture? Wear funny underwear like the Mormons? Wear a headscarf like some fundamentalist Christians do?
I don't even understand why you would use the term "expansionist" for people who simply want to live and work alongside their native born neighbors.

That is a very shallow interpretation of what I said. The point is their identification as a separate culture, not mine. They advocate acceptance of their culture. This makes no sense unless they see a difference between their culture and the current culture. Obviously, anyone who likes the current culture might resist change. This means it is cultural and not racial as they self identify as a culture.
My second point is this will not disappear with ‘white culture’ acceptance of minority status because the ‘minorities’ represent different cultures. It is the fallacy of multiculturalism. They will all compete for dominance if assimilation is no longer required and local autonomy is not acceptable for them.

[Drlee]

That is a very shallow interpretation of what I said. The point is their identification as a separate culture, not mine. They advocate acceptance of their culture. This makes no sense unless they see a difference between their culture and the current culture. Obviously, anyone who likes the current culture might resist change. This means it is cultural and not racial as they self identify as a culture.

I don't think that they do though it is a common term. I prefer the term "community". Clearly we whites are forcing their hand though by continuously separating them. We are the ones who, because we are not willing to bend, are keeping them separate. Black communities did not become black communities because blacks moved there. They became black because we moved away. And, having done that, lost interest in them.

My second point is this will not disappear with ‘white culture’ acceptance of minority status because the ‘minorities’ represent different cultures. It is the fallacy of multiculturalism. They will all compete for dominance if assimilation is no longer required and local autonomy is not acceptable for them.

They are not doing that now. When do you think they will start? Give me some examples of minorities trying to dominate "white culture".

[One Degree]

I don't think that they do though it is a common term. I prefer the term "community".

‘Community’ would refer to groups like the Amish. It is not applicable for those pursuing centralized control.

Clearly we whites are forcing their hand though by continuously separating them. We are the ones who, because we are not willing to bend, are keeping them separate. Black communities did not become black communities because blacks moved there. They became black because we moved away. And, having done that, lost interest in them.

Whites have not been encouraging separation for decades. We are integrated on higher income levels and separated on lower levels due to choice by both.

They are not doing that now. When do you think they will start? Give me some examples of minorities trying to dominate "white culture".

Atlanta and California. California has a very low Black population. Their government is obviously dominated by pro Latino legislation such as protection for illegals. There is a historical antagonism between Latinos and American Blacks. I don’t know how Black Latinos fit in this. I am guessing they are a third separate group. Catholicism and Islam certainly are not going to agree for long.

[Drlee]

Whites have not been encouraging separation for decades. We are integrated on higher income levels and separated on lower levels due to choice by both

I see. The reason that poor blacks do not live in my expensive gated community is because the do not choose to.

Atlanta and California. California has a very low Black population. Their government is obviously dominated by pro Latino legislation such as protection for illegals.

Again you show you do not understand what the whole sanctuary city thing means. The purpose of it is to prevent crime and enforce the law. Not protect illegals from immigration action. Of course it essentially prevents a beat cop from enforcing the immigration laws but I hope you would join me in recognizing that it simply isn't their job. Think of it as the pot law enforcement. It is illegal to possess pot by federal law. Pot for medical purposes is legal in Arizona. Surely you do not want the local sheriff enforcing a federal law in the face of a state legislature telling him it is not illegal in Arizona.

I do not want to live in a community where, if an illegal alien calls the cops to report a crime, he/she might fear deportation because the beat cop checks their immigration status.

You could point to California's everify law and claim that protects illegals. Please don't. I don't feel like explaining that again. Just google it and read it carefully.

There is a historical antagonism between Latinos and American Blacks.

Not anything like a significant one.

I don’t know how Black Latinos fit in this. I am guessing they are a third separate group. Catholicism and Islam certainly are not going to agree for long.

Tell me the essentials upon which Catholics and Muslims disagree. I don't actually see any except doctrinal differences. Those exist between Catholics and Episcopalians too. It seems to me that Catholics and Muslims have more in common than do Mormons and Catholics. Few people are angst ridden about the Mormons.

[Suntzu]

:lol: I see. The reason that poor blacks do not live in my expensive gated community is because the do not choose to.



Again you show you do not understand what the whole sanctuary city thing means. The purpose of it is to prevent crime and enforce the law. Not protect illegals from immigration action. Of course it essentially prevents a beat cop from enforcing the immigration laws but I hope you would join me in recognizing that it simply isn't their job. Think of it as the pot law enforcement. It is illegal to possess pot by federal law. Pot for medical purposes is legal in Arizona. Surely you do not want the local sheriff enforcing a federal law in the face of a state legislature telling him it is not illegal in Arizona.

I do not want to live in a community where, if an illegal alien calls the cops to report a crime, he/she might fear deportation because the beat cop checks their immigration status.

You could point to California's everify law and claim that protects illegals. Please don't. I don't feel like explaining that again. Just google it and read it carefully.




Not anything like a significant one.



Tell me the essentials upon which Catholics and Muslims disagree. I don't actually see any except doctrinal differences. Those exist between Catholics and Episcopalians too. It seems to me that Catholics and Muslims have more in common than do Mormons and Catholics. Few people are angst ridden about the Mormons.

Yeah, it ain't like Blacks and Latinos are competing for jobs.

[One Degree]

@Drlee
Poor whites and poor Latinos are not living in your gated communities either. I don’t know what point you were trying to make. It appears you believe all Blacks must be wealthy before we quit blaming whites?

Protecting illegals so they will report crimes is pure nonsense.

[Suntzu]

No citizenship for asylum seeker . . . every. Asylum seeker accepted go into refugee camps until it is safe for them to return to their home country.

[blackjack21]

IMO the only group set on any kind of dominance is that of Native Born Whites. SOME of them are frightened because they have been moved by rhetoric like yours.

Considering that George W. Bush used to live as a child with his parents in Compton, CA, do you think any of the Bush family would live their now? If not, why not? What about Compton, CA was okay to live in for white people in the 1950s, but may be considered considerably more threatening today?

Help us out Drlee. Is it that more racists live their now? Is it that all the racists left Compton? I sure could use a Mensa genius to help me figure this one out.

[Suntzu]

No problemo! Currently Compton is 96% Hispanic and Black. Any Whites who could leave, have.

[Albert]

I believe Drlee is a good representation of center-right voters and established politicians. They do not even realize themselves that they are pretty much left these days and progressive. People like him (in the Republican party and Conservative parties of western world) have created this mess along side with the center-left and democratic socialist. It is no surprise that Merkel of Germany is actually center-right or that Reagan who gave amnesty to illegals was a Republican.

No citizenship for asylum seeker . . . every. Asylum seeker accepted go into refugee camps until it is safe for them to return to their home country.

That is how it is done in most of the world. Which the most common sense approach, but our politicians have lost all sense these days.

[Drlee]

People like him (in the Republican party and Conservative parties of western world) have created this mess along side with the center-left and democratic socialist.

[Tainari88]

They interviewed people in Central America who smuggle people into the USA. The smugglers stated that big walls and lots of cops won't deter people over time. The problem in Central America is crime, corruption, low wages, no protections for small business and farmers, lack of high schools, trade schools, hospitals ,clinics, and not enough investment. The gap is filled by criminal activity serving drug addicts with money to burn from the state's. Fix those issues in Mexico, Central America? You have a great reduction.in border crossers.

You don't educate people? You don't pay people enough living wages? You don't help local farmers and tradesmen with equitable and fair trade practices? You undermine gov'ts interested in change for the poor? Housing for seniors, families. Small things that bring stability in small countries solve a lot over time. Not giving a flying damn about people different than you...you are being retrograde in thinking.

We answered the door one day in 1989. It was Maura and Jose from El Salvador looking for a Spanish last name to help them translate something. I helped them. They worked and saved for years at factory jobs and left for the Salvadoran countryside. I talked to them for years. You want a solution? Listen to them and get their circumstances to change that motivates them to STAY in their home nations. They told me they tried the banana harvest wages in Guatemala it barely fed them two meals a day. Listen to the people desperate enough to be put in a camp or prison because they can't live. Do something within your means. If you don't give a damn? Then you are the issue as well. A bunch of complainers with no solutions.

The Boricuas tell me, the cost of living is too high, the electricity is too expensive and the jobs are low paying, the school system has issues, and the PROMESA panel sucks. They will move. Change the circumstances? The people go back home. In the sixties there were more Boricuas moving back to the island than moving to the states. The economy improved. It is the same for most countries in the entire world.

[Suntzu]

Probably 6,000,000,000 folks living in countries we would consider to be shitholes. They can't all come here. Your baby daddy beating you up is not a reason to be given U.S. citizenship. Your country is a shithole and your culture is the blame.

[Godstud]

Probably 6,000,000,000 folks living in countries we would consider to be shitholes. They can't all come here. Your baby daddy beating you up is not a reason to be given U.S. citizenship. Your country is a shithole and your culture is the blame.

Is being an asshole edgy, now?

The US is responsible for a great deal of that shit in other countries, so stuff that up your ass.

The US has spent decades causing a lot of the violence in Central American and other places, and now it's biting them in the ass? Fuck off!

[Tainari88]

You are not in Europe Suntzu. You are not in England. Which country is to the South? Canada doesn't have a bad economy. No motivation for smuggling people in. The USA has Mexico to the South. Unless the USA moves out of its geographical position? Highly unlikely there. Mexico has 130,000,000 plus people Central America another 30-40 million more. South America another 300 plus million...you either deal with your neighbors in a civilized way or you will go to war with them and blame their culture when it is an economic issue you racist non-thinker @Suntzu s.

Your solution is to shoot and kill? You are not going to stop the wave of desperate people by being a racist blaming Culture. How many poor people from Europe arrived on boats fleeing potato famines, wars and turmoil in Europe? That is over now? Culture for you are rich nations and rich people? Then the USA was filled with people from the lowest classes with poverty as an inheritance. Your logic is invalid Suntzu.

You need @Suntzu to stop your empty rhetoric and deal with reality. You are not in Europe. The native peoples of the Americas are not European, the slaves from Africa aren't either and the Spanish were Roman Catholics who baptized mixed race children for centuries. If you dislike that history? You need to reassess what part of the world you are living in. The USA is a free for all of every race,creed, and nationality. That is the reality. You should read Nancy Isenberg's white trash 400 years of class history in America--read about white European trash history and how poor and uncouth they were...lol. You are so small in thinking @Suntzu.

Europe unloaded its lowest and most poor people on the USA. Many do not know that a great percentage went back home and did not stay. Immigrant labor in sweat shops and child labor factories and crowded rat infested tenement apartments greeted many poor immigrants from Europe. Many punched their tickets home. Ellis island museum is filled with those stories. Poverty and desoeration, illiteracy and crime was par for the course in NYC? Didn't you see gangs of NYC? Did you blame them for being poor and without options in Europe? Or are you as I suspect an unrepentant racist and only blame the natives of Latin America because you hate them?

[Suntzu]

Switzerland is surrounded by poorer countries and doesn't have a wall. It is also not overrun with asylum seekers. The solution is to limit jobs and services to legal residents. The population of the U.S. has doubled in the last 50 years. It can't continue.

[Godstud]

Switzerland? They have their own problems, you numpty.

Switzerland’s immigration dilemma: what you need to know
https://www.thelocal.ch/20161206/switze ... ed-to-know

Poor countries like France, Italy, Austria and Germany? Your knowledge of geography is as bad as your knowledge of the problem.