[One Degree]

You really need to read your own information. It's been on a decline for the last few years.



An increase of a few percent but an overall decline over the last few years.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the point you challenged.

[Godstud]

I said it was in decline. You did not, but you provided a source that supported what I said. You made a claim that was inherently false. Sorry.

You said:

This only applies to those granted entry. My figures are the ones not allowed entry or pending their entry.
This is 30-40 thousand per month in addition to your figures.

Your source did not support this claim.

[anarchist23]

[One Degree]

:lol: I said it was in decline. You did not, but you provided a source that supported what I said. You made a claim that was inherently false. Sorry.

That fantasy world must be some trip. I don’t recall saying anyithing about ‘declining’ or ‘increasing’. I don’t recall us discussing it at all. Perhaps you can point it out to me in this reality?
And, what does it have to do with the monthly figures I quoted that you challenged?

[Godstud]

I said it was in decline. Nothing you presented contradicted that claim. Are you not paying attention?

[One Degree]

Verbiage is verbiage no matter how cute and righteous you make it look. Wise people will do what they deem necessary regardless of meaningless phrases. “Cats have rights”.

[anarchist23]

Verbiage is verbiage no matter how cute and righteous you make it look. Wise people will do what they deem necessary regardless of meaningless phrases. “Cats have rights”.

It's a pity that you don't back up your opinions with a citation or two. lol

[Godstud]

@One Degree I take it your childish reply means that you have no actual argument.

[One Degree]

It's a pity that you don't back up your opinions with a citation or two. lol

‘Citation’ or ‘argument’ to what? UN human rights are ‘verbiage’ because they are incapable of enforcing them. What do you expect the UN to do about it if the US decides to ignore one of them? It’s not like they are actually enforced worldwide. Again, it is verbiage.

[Suntzu]

I say we create asylum zones/camps to house refugees until it is safe to return to their own countries.

[Pants-of-dog]

It's not the immigration policies, it's the neoliberal plundering that's exacerbating it.

You already talked about how brain drain is part of the neoliberal plundering.

And we already discusssed how immigration policies can drive brain drain.

So, we can see how those immigration policies that supoort brain drain are aprt of the neoliberal plundering.

Educated migrants are still exploited, the only reason they're allowed in is because they'll work more for less. And they don't have much of a choice to begin with, they're better off than the desperate peasants but their prospects are still pretty limited in their home countries.

When I worked in an architectual office, we had many educated immigrants working with us from all over the world. They were not paid less than the non-immigrants.

@mikema63's politics are the root cause. That's why his moralizing is so

You seem to devote a lot of energy to attacking other posters.

Let us assume that @mikema63 is an awful conniving neoliberal oppressive gulagist, and not someone who thinks that separating familes when they apply for asylum is wrong.

If that is the case, then mike is doing a particularly bad job at enforing his ideology by focusing on one symptom of the issue that has no effect on any of the root causes.

Bunif you wish to explain how protesting the separation of asylum seeking families is a clever ploy to impose neoliberal polices on the developing world, please do so.

[Tainari88]

For once, I agree with @blackjack21.

Immigration laws exist for a reason, and this "think of the children" stuff is an entirely cynical attempt to circumvent them. People seem to be under the mistaken impression that there is a fundamental human right to move to the USA.

Heisenberg, there is some ignorance in Central America about what is allowed in the USA. The lack of information and propaganda in Latin America regarding how it is like for people without papers is astounding. Many countries in Central America are in total chaos. The gangs for example in El Salvador have made living there in poor barrios next to impossible. Most of those gangs come from Los Angeles or have ties to people deported from LA.

Honduras is super dangerous because of the violence associated with drug trafficking to service the needs of drug consumers in the USA. Poverty creates conditions of breaking laws, in all societies.

Mexicans have asked me in Spanish when I visit, "How is it like in the USA? I heard you get a job, an apartment and you make a better life very easily over there." My answer is always, "That is a big lie. You are facing a high probability of being caught, losing your money that you paid to some crooked Coyote, you won't make enough money to rent an apartment in the big cities and in the small cities or small towns jobs are limited and the worst jobs that no one wants to do due to bad working conditions they reserve for Mexicans and Latinos. It is very bad. It takes about 14 years to get some kind of citizenship or legal residency status paying high fees and being paupered by lawyers, and other attorneys who feed off of vulnerable immigrants. You got the problem with not speaking English fluently and not understanding laws, traffic ticket situations that are expensive, and the USA society is racist. It is. They target non white poor people for a lot of things.

The stress is high. And to be funny the food is awful in general. Not fresh like it is in Central America where you taste the earth and the freshness. There? Big delivery trucks go thousands of miles delivering stuff from California to Ohio or the middle of the country....and the Southern states fry everything people are way overweight and unhealthy. Taxes you are not used to. They tax your ass to death there. And on top of that you got health care that is awful. They won't let you die for sure. You can get care in emergency situations. You will just get a bill that is inflated and you will be paying for it for years.

Housing is usually too high, water too high, cable bill too high, cars and auto insurance too high, etc. Everything high. Your kids being immigrant parents' children will be sent to bad schools that won't get them prepared for university studies. They won't do much better than you will even with English socioeconomically. "

I give them that speech Heisenberg. They then ask a bunch of more questions. In the end, the best strategy is to stay in their nation and kick ass locally and politically for a better society. And the USA government should stop damn interfering in Latin America's issues (stay the hell out of it--if some rich corporation from the USA loses because they only care about money and profit and not about the people of those nations? Tough cookies. Bite the damn bullet. Because if things get so bad the people got to go and run across the border to live? The USA gov't is going to be spending money detaining, processing and dealing with mass amounts of desperate people. Pay now or pay later. But the cheapest thing and smartest thing is to LET PEOPLE SOLVE THEIR OWN ISSUES IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY!).

[anarchist23]

And the USA government should stop damn interfering in Latin America's issues (stay the hell out of it--if some rich corporation from the USA loses because they only care about money and profit and not about the people of those nations? Tough cookies. Bite the damn bullet. Because if things get so bad the people got to go and run across the border to live? The USA gov't is going to be spending money detaining, processing and dealing with mass amounts of desperate people. Pay now or pay later. But the cheapest thing and smartest thing is to LET PEOPLE SOLVE THEIR OWN ISSUES IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY!).

The US government not only interferes with Latin America but throughout the world..

The USA supported or engendered every right wing dictatorship in the twentieth century..


1876–1911 Mexico. Porfirio Díaz. During the Porfiriato, tensions between the U.S. and Mexico were high.
1929–2000 Mexico Institutional Revolutionary Party
1908–1935 Venezuela Juan Vicente Gómez
1898–1920 Guatemala Manuel Estrada Cabrera
1931–1944 Guatemala Jorge Ubic
1952–1959 Cuba Fulgencio Batista
1930–1961 Dominican Republic Rafael Trujillo Later overthrown with at least some aid from the CIA
1954–1986 Guatemala Efraín Ríos MonttJunta See also: 1954 Guatemalan coup d'état.
1979–1982 El Salvador Revolutionary Government Junta of El Salvador
1971–1978 Bolivia Hugo Banzer
1976–1983 Argentina National Reorganization Process
1964–1985 Brazil Brazilian military government
1936–1979 Nicaragua Somoza family
1957–1971 Haiti François Duvalier
1971–1986 Haiti Jean-Claude Duvalier
1968–1981 Panama Omar Torrijos
1983–1989 Panama Manuel Noriega Later overthrown by US in Operation Just Cause in 1989.
1954–1989 Paraguay Alfredo Stroessner
1973–1990 Chile Augusto Pinochet
1948–1960 South Korea Syngman Rhee
1958–1969 Pakistan Ayub Khan
1991–present Azerbaijan Heydar AliyevIlham Aliyev
1991–present Kazakhstan Nursultan Nazarbaye
1961–1979 South Korea Park Chung-hee
1979–1988 South Korea Chun Doo-hwan
1955–1963 South Vietnam Ngo Dinh Diem Later assassinated in a US-backed coup.Arrest and assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem.
1970–1975 Cambodia Lon Nol
1969–1971 Pakistan Yahya Khan
1941–1979 Iran Mohammad Reza Pahlavi See also: 1953 Iranian coup d'état.
1985–1987 Iran Ruhollah Khomeini[ See also: Iran–Contra affair.
1965–1986 Philippines Ferdinand Marcos
1978–1988 Pakistan Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq
1982–1990 Iraq Saddam Hussein Later seen as an enemy of US in the Gulf War and deposed in the Iraq War. See: United States support for Iraq during the Iran–Iraq war.
1956–1968 Indonesia Suharto[ See also: Allen Lawrence Pope.
1959–present Singapore People's Action Party
1984–present Brunei Hassanal Bolkia
2011–present Vietnam Trương Tấn Sang
2014–present Thailand Prayut Chan-o-cha
1949–1953 Syria al-Za'im-Shishkali-al-Hinnawi Junta See: Husni al-Za'im, Adib Shishakli, Sami al-Hinnawi.
1990–present Uzbekistan Islam Karimo
1999–2008 Pakistan Pervez Musharraf
1990–2012 Yemen Ali Abdullah Saleh
1994–present Tajikistan Emomali Rahmon
2006–present Turkmenistan Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedo
1945–present Saudi Arabia House of Saud
1999–present Bahrain Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa
1995–2013 Qatar Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani
1970–present Oman Qaboos bin Said al Said
1954–present Jordan Hashemite Dynasty
1994–present United Arab Emirates United Arab Emirates
1961–1999 Morocco King Hassan II
1969–1985 Sudan Nimeiry
1980–1990 Liberia Samuel Doe
1991–2012 Ethiopia Meles Zenawi
1979–present Equatorial Guinea Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo
1965–1997 Zaire, Democratic Republic of the Congo Mobutu Sese Seko
1982–1990 Chad Hissène Habre
1981–2011 Egypt Hosni Mubarak
2012–2013 Egypt Mohamed Morsi
1990–present Chad Idriss Déby
1986–present Uganda Yoweri Museveni
1987–2011 Tunisia Zine El Abidine Ben Ali
2000–present Rwanda Paul Kagame
1936–1975 Spain Francisco Franco At times opposed diplomatically because of fascist leanings.
1933–1974 Portugal António de Oliveira Salazar
1941–1945 Soviet Union Joseph Stalin Later considered an enemy of the US. See Cold War.
1967–1974 Greece Greek military junta
1980–1989 Turkey Turkish military junta
1955–1980 Yugoslavia Josip Broz Tito
1969–1989 Romania Nicolae Ceaușescu
1941–1975 Republic of China Chiang Kai-Shek
1948–1957 Thailand Plaek Phibunsongkhram

[Albert]

I say we create asylum zones/camps to house refugees until it is safe to return to their own countries.

That is how most of the world does it.

[Pants-of-dog]

Canada should offer to help.

We could house the refugees somewhere safe, where there already many immigrants, and where we know that they can get by without a job.

Toronto or one of its suburbs perhaps.

[mikema63]

Let us assume that @mikema63 is an awful conniving neoliberal oppressive gulagist, and not someone who thinks that separating familes when they apply for asylum is wrong.

If that is the case, then mike is doing a particularly bad job at enforing his ideology by focusing on one symptom of the issue that has no effect on any of the root causes.

Bunif you wish to explain how protesting the separation of asylum seeking families is a clever ploy to impose neoliberal polices on the developing world, please do so.

Sivad just doesn't like me and would rather rationalize any tiny little point of agreement we have as revealing the true depths of my blood sucking depravity.

I'll just take this point to make something clear.

Maybe I'm wrong, I certainly could be, and everything I think that will make peoples lives better would actually make them worse. That would be tragic, and if I were convinced of it I would change my mind. That is something that I think is fundamentally true of almost everyone on here. I'm not a cartoon villain sneaking around trying to destroy peoples lives by posting on PoFo that I think splitting children from their families is bad. I wouldn't benefit in any way. Even within Sivad's or any random socialists worldview I wouldn't. I'm not a captain of industry or a vastly wealthy landowner, I'm just some dude trying to do the best I know how.

I don't want to hurt people. I don't hate the poor and want to trick them into suffering for some vague purpose by the arcane method of being upset about children being taken from their parents.

[Tainari88]

Canada should offer to help.

We could house the refugees somewhere safe, where there already many immigrants, and where we know that they can get by without a job.

Toronto or one of its suburbs perhaps.

I have a memory of a meeting I had with a mother who begged me to go get her 5 year old son detained by border patrol and he was in Houston, Texas. She was here working with a fake social security card. She was from Honduras. I worked at the same place she did part time, while I was in graduate school. She was afraid of picking up her son and being detained and losing her job, her apartment in Denver, etc. She asked me to go get him. She had paid some woman to turn her son over to some unscrupulous smugglers without an escort.

The pigs left that child alone in the middle of a fucking desert where he could have easily died of dehydration. Some border patrol officials found him out there. They took him to a detention center....and called a cousin of the mother's who lived in Dallas who also was without papers. The cousin was scared. Could not go and pick up that little boy. So the woman asked me to go. I said nothing at work. I went to her apartment.

I sat on a sofa and she and I had a very very hard conversation in Spanish. It consisted of me telling her using some strong curse language in Spanish, "What the hell where you thinking? Those pigs could have killed your son!! Sold him off to some organ harvesting or some desperate Gringos wanting to adopt a child. Sexual abuse, child porn! What the hell are you thinking??!! You paid 5,000 dollars? For what? For them to leave your kid in some desert in Texas or some hot car or something? Crying his eyes out and abandoned? Dead? You are stupid in the extreme!"

She was balling her eyes out....she said she missed her son a lot and loved him and wanted to see him again. She could not afford more money for some legal entry with an escort. She thought it would be ok. She said the Aunt he lived with had died. No one would take on the responsibility. She did not know what to do. I told her, "Well if it gets that bad? You leave the USA. You take the 5,000 and get the hell out of the USA. Go get your son and work in some horrible job and fight it out. You can't risk some criminal low lives killing off your kid. That is too much and stupid. You would trust these exploitative freaks with the life of your child? Are you that dumb?"

I sent my mother to go get him. She did. Brought him to the mother. And then she and I made a plan for the mother to work for one more year. Save half her salary and go and buy a small home in her hometown in Honduras. Hooked her up with a humanitarian organization that would make sure she and her son got medical care, attended school and she invested her money in a micro business. You never should be risking your kid for a fucking FAKE American Dream that doesn't exist for undocumented people who are barely scraping a living.

[AFAIK]

The USA is the only country in the world that hasn't ratified the UN declaration on the rights of the child. We should push it to do so.

[Godstud]

There are lots of UN declarations that the USA won't ratify, because it would interfere with their goals.

[Tainari88]

There are lots of UN declarations that the USA won't ratify, because it would interfere with their goals.

@Godstud
I am so tired of the USA not facing the realities of its actions. They love blaming tiny countries for not becoming rich and powerful. Lol. So much sheer stupidity of propaganda they spread about how the streets are paved with gold and the land of milk and honey. How with hard work and belief in the greatness of capitalism American style, that anyone can come here and become middle class within one or two generations.

I just tell people who spout that total shit to me to my face? "Oh yes....there are plenty of Appalachian hillbillies and poor as dirt African American black people and tons of many generation American true blue types that have been here for hundreds of years and are still waiting to hit pay dirt and get rich and it is not happening. Why? They speak English and been here a long time....yet the big fat bucks and perfect decor hasn't happened yet." They hardly have an answer.

The reality is that the inequality in income has increased a lot since the 1970's. It is on a path of more inequality. People who keep spouting that crap about anyone can make it? It is a hollow promise.

No one tells the truth. How many small businesses go out of business every year. How many restaurants are boarded up. How many people move in to their parents' basements? How many college students graduate and are in deep debt because of it? Where is the American Dream going?

It is not the majority at all. Many think it is. But it is not. Not anymore. If the pace keeps up? Middle class America is going to be vast MINORITY of Americans. But no one talks about that.

They continue with the fake narrative. Central Americans are some of the hardest working, religious, spiritual, open, honest, good people on this Earth. If you know them well? They have some great human values. But they have the USA and its fascist shit interference creating incredible obstacles to true progress in their societies. Panama, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Costa Rica....Almost every single one of them invaded by the USA or had some idiotic coup d'etat staged. United Fruit in Guatemala, Honduras, Sandino shot in Nicaragua, Walker set up as a representative of the USA interest in Nicaraguan affairs, Iran-Contra, the obsession of Reagan with Nicaragua and the domino effect of REDS invading their backyard. So much BULLSHIT....civil war, and death squads in El Salvador, they destabilize tiny countries and make life impossible for the populace arming these right wing nightmare dictatorships and blood baths and killing the farming families and creating fear and people not being able to make a living.

Then they complain about these people fleeing to the relative safety of the USA. Many people underestimate how many refugees and exiled Latin Americans wind up in Mexico City. MASSIVE amounts. Castro from Cuba and Che both were jailed in Mexico for conspiring to overthrow the Batista government. Argentine exiles during the 80's, Spanish civil war exiles hit Mexico City. So many.....destabilized gov'ts and the Mexicans absorbing them in big chunks.

Americans got to stop with the denial of their bad fallout from their imperialistic and greedy people. Killing off people and manipulating constantly to favor private for profit multinational corporations. Latin America is not their damn backyard!! You can't nation build from afar. You need to accept you can't over reach. You got to stop the madness.

People can't live in their own lands? Guess where they are going to go? The place that runs around advertising some middle class dream that not even the Appalachian Hillbillies in the Smoky Mountains of Tennessee have reached.

Fake Hollywood Set!! I should shout with a big bullhorn all over Latin American poor barrios, "El Sueno Americano es MIERDA!! No existe! Quedanse donde estan y confronten a los corruptos, los politicos mentirosos y los burgueses indiferentes consentidos!"

That would be more effective than dealing with all these lying propaganda messages from the USA machine.