It's FASCISM, baby. - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Zamuel
#14926909
Crantag wrote:This post is nonsensical. Mussolini described his credo as corpratist.

Yes - "corporativismo" which it seems you don't have a clue about. Mussolini wasn't referring to modern corporations, he was referring to an old tradition of the catholic church that organized society by occupation and lifestyle. He used it mostly to try and consolidate socialism and the church. It's a transitory state between Guilds and Labor unions.

But Orwell identified the trend back in 1946 whereby popular wisdom regressed to an understanding of fascism merely as 'something undesirable'.

Orwell essayed about the use of the term as a predominantly negative adjective in common usage after WWII ... He decried the use of the word in this manner. He also specifically noted ... "But Fascism is also a political and economic system." It seems you have a problem delineating the two. (which is what Orwell was complaining about 75 years ago.)

Try again when you know what you are talking about.

Zam :smokin:
#14928460
Prosthetic Conscience wrote:Why? I'm not saying the Soviet Union was worse than the Nazis. I was pointing out your "except USSR" remark was bullshit.

Actually, you level of arguments is bullshit. Or it's blatant demagogy. Or CHUTZPAH.

You didn't read my links?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bom ... d_Nagasaki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of ... rld_War_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of ... rld_War_II

Hecatomb of huge proportion. Elimination of entire city.
Did Russian ever done something like that?
Massacre of innocent of huge scale - it's Nazi or USA crime. But some most disgusting things even Nazi didn't do.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_m ... e_war_dead
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre

Cannibalistic rituals like in African savage tribes. I don't have data even Nazi ever done such abominations.
Stories about lamp shades made from human skin are fakes. I hope you know that?



Prosthetic Conscience wrote:The list of Soviet war crimes is long: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

Nice load of Goebbels crap. Especially

Western estimates of the traceable number of rape victims range from two hundred thousand to two million.

Blatant Goebbels propaganda, disproved many times.

I read that actually mass rapists in occupied Germany were... yes, Usans. Read this, use Google Translate.

http://putnik1.livejournal.com/2137214.html

In short - systematic rapes by USA soldiers were "form of reparation" from the POV of USA commanders. And it was proven in court after USA Military tried to sue him for slander.
And about "systematic rapes by Russians" - he admit he got 0 proof.



"Dr. Rüdiger Overmans believes that it seems entirely plausible, while not provable, that an additional German military personnel listed as missing actually died in Soviet custody as POWs, putting the estimates of the actual death toll of German POW in the USSR at about 1.0 million."

No proof USSR intentionally massacred POW, like Nazi or Usans, eh? Not even HIGHLY LIKELY? (c)
"We know absolutely nothing about what happened, but we ASSUMED they all were eaten alive by Bloody Stalin!"


Also read this:

https://putnik1.livejournal.com/2136726.html
http://mywebs.su/blog/history/6057/ Russian, use Google Translate.

It's about USA death camps for German POW.




Prosthetic Conscience wrote:You started this thread to make the USA look bad, not the Nazis. Have you had to lower your standards so much that your only point is now "the USSR wasn't as bad as the Nazis"?


Do USA look bad enough now? No?

https://aquatek-filips.livejournal.com/865733.html
Look at the photos. It's consequences of using "Agent Orange". Huge number of defaced children was born because dioxin attacked DNA. Not even Nazi used this methods of fighting with Russian guerrilla.



Prosthetic Conscience wrote:(And please don't 'double post' - if you have 2 or more people to reply to, do it in one post. See "Double Posts" here: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=357 )


Ok


===================================================================


Ter wrote:No, I do not understand.

Because Gorby and Yeltsin were western lapdogs.

Ter wrote:There is no doubt that the Russians killed the Polish military elite.

Actually there are lots of doubts, but you didn't read my links and don't know about that.


===================================================================


Crantag wrote:The symptoms of fascism are informative and are good indicators, but it's also important not to overly focus on the symptoms. For the USA, the symptoms are present and so is the disease. Corporatocracy is basically just another word for fascism. It leads to all sorts of tyranny. The US is fascist as fuck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy to be correct.

Also remember definition of fascism by Dimitrov.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitio ... i_Dimitrov

"Fascism is not a form of state power "standing above both classes -- the proletariat and the bourgeoisie," as Otto Bauer, for instance, has asserted. It is not "the revolt of the petty bourgeoisie which has captured the machinery of the state," as the British Socialist Brailsford declares. No, fascism is not a power standing above class, nor government of the petty bourgeoisie or the lumpen-proletariat over finance capital. Fascism is the power of finance capital itself. It is the organization of terrorist vengeance against the working class and the revolutionary section of the peasantry and intelligentsia. In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations.... The development of fascism, and the fascist dictatorship itself, assume different forms in different countries, according to historical, social and economic conditions and to the national peculiarities, and the international position of the given country."

In foreign policy, fascism is jingoism in its most brutal form, fomenting bestial hatred of other nations....
It's what we see in Vietnam, Iraq, etc, etc...


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Zamuel wrote:Not so. Essential aspects of facism are government control of industry, strict government control of banks, and repression of political activism. None of these factors are evident in America.
Militancy and social discipline are also strong under facism, but are extremely rare in the US.

You describing classic fascism like in Nazi Germany.
USA fascism is much more sophisticated. It's actually called liber-fascism.

Russian again, use Google Translate:

Сегодня на Украине утвердилась самая передовая разновидность неофашизма – либеральный фашизм, именуемый более коротко либер-фашизм. Если апеллировать к Пелевину, то его можно назвать «кровавой демократурой». Это своего рода симбиоз демократии и тоталитарной диктатуры, где от демократии взята форма – выборы, «свободные СМИ», толерастия, а от тоталитарной диктатуры – суть.

В чем разница между классическим и либер-фашизмом? Объясняю образно: при классическом фашизме вас прилюдно арестуют, запытают в гестапо до смерти, а потом без всякого стеснения повесят труп на главной площади города. Далее выстроят на площади школьников, пенсионеров, трудовые коллективы и торжественно провозгласят, что так будет с каждым, кто посягнет на великого фюрера (нацию, империю, священную идею) словом или делом.

При либер-фашизме вас похитят тайно, запытают в гестапо до смерти, а потом неполживые СМИ объявят, что вы террорист, который сам себя взорвал, дважды застрелился в голову из пистолета, убил себя, не снимая наручников, сам себя пожег коктейлем Молотова, расстрелялся из РСЗО «Град» или ПЗРК (спасибо кондиционеру!). Чтобы никто не сомневался в сказанном, у вас в гараже найдут склад боеприпасов, а на Кипре счета для финансирования терактов, опубликуют в Фейсбуке план захвата мира из взломанной электронной почты. Ваш дом сожгут ваши же соратники по террористической ячейки, чтоб замести следы, а родственники, не вынеся позора, покончат с собой (описанными выше способами, конечно).

Толпы даунов узнают обо всем этом из ток-шоу по зомбоящику, и тут же бросятся строчить в соцсетях и жэжэшках, что всегда подозревали в вас врага нации, потому что двоюродный брат сестры жены любовника вашей соседки, который знал вас лично, сообщил по секрету, что вы были педофилом, сатанистом, продавали детям наркотики, лечились в психушке и являлись агентом пяти иностранных разведок. Тогда даже самые закоренелые скептики отбросят последние сомнения и будут радостно скакать, потому что террористическая угроза свободе и процветанию нации с вашей смертью устранена.

Надеюсь, я доходчиво объяснил? Для тех, кто предпочитает определения посложнее, скажу так: классический фашизм опирается на прямое насилие и принуждение, инструментами власти выступают спецслужбы, армия, единственно правильная партия и прочие привычные институты тоталитаризма. Либер-фашизм построен на манипуляции и имитации. При либер-фашизме имитируются «свободные» выборы, парламентаризм, многопартийность, плюрализм мнений в СМИ, декларируюся всякие права человека и сексменьшинств. Инструментами утверждения либерфашизма выступают не иерархические структуры (бюрократический госаппарат, партии, церковь и т.д.), а сетевые - НКО, соцсети, медиа, корпоративные системы, модные явления масскульта, всякого рода секты и т.д.

Классический фашизм добивался унификации сознания (внедрению единственно верных и незыблемых идеологических установок), либер-фашизм стремится к его стерилизации, то есть полному отсутствию каких-либо идеологических предпочтений, убеждений, взглядов. Дело в том, что актуальную точку зрения современные медиа способны внедрить в мозг быдлу почти мгновенно, а для этого мозг должен быть чист.

Классический фашизм провозглашает высшим смыслом служение нации (фюреру, идее), либер-фашизм дает установку на то, что высший смысл состоит в служении себе. Классический фашизм проповедует аскетизм, культ силы (здоровья), семьи. Либер-фашизм есть производная общества всеобщего потребления, поэтому во главу угла ставится алчность (культ потребления и наживы, личного благополучия), стремление к наслаждениям, традиционные ценности активно замещаются толерастией.

Классический фашизм неизбежно приводил к вождизму, в ходе естественного отбора возносил на олимп харизматичных лидеров, способных повелевать толпами. При либер-фашизме не вожди повелевают толпами с помощью медиа, а медиа создают у толпы иллюзию, что ее куда-то ведет мудрый вождь. Сам вождь является имтиацией, продуктом медиагипноза, и потому легко может быть заменен на более актуальный образ. Смена декораций происходит путем имитации выборов или иным способом.

https://kungurov.livejournal.com/90264.html

This is written about Ukraine, but it completely same about USA too.
Hope you have enough patience to translate and read it, it's extremely interesting!

P.S. Liber-fascism is 1000 times more dangerous than "classic" fascism, so you have to learn all about it.
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14928492
Rakshasa wrote:Hope you have enough patience to translate and read it, it's extremely interesting!
P.S. Liber-fascism is 1000 times more dangerous than "classic" fascism, so you have to learn all about it.

I have lots of patience, but I don't waste any on BS attempts to redefine classic definitions so an author can use them as Jingoistic emotional buzzwords to try and support his cause. Commutards like to do this a lot it seems, as fascism is a competitive form of cooperative organization.

The only real difference between Communism and Fascism is semantic. Communism proposes that the State serves the People, while under fascism People serve the State. Both are simple illusions erected to justify state repression of Freedom.

Liberalism initiates freedom and specifies that government shall not impinge upon it. As long as peoples freedom is maintained either cooperative or competitive organization is allowed. People seem to like this.

Zam :smokin:
#14928497
Zamuel wrote:The only real difference between Communism and Fascism is semantic. Communism proposes that the State serves the People, while under fascism People serve the State. Both are simple illusions erected to justify state repression of Freedom.

Liberalism initiates freedom and specifies that government shall not impinge upon it. As long as peoples freedom is maintained either cooperative or competitive organization is allowed. People seem to like this.


You are starting to sound more like an AnCap every day.

Please continue....and fully come to terms with the fact that the common evil between fascism and communism is the state.

Imagevia Imgflip Meme Generator
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By Zamuel
#14928503
Victoribus Spolia wrote:You are starting to sound more like an AnCap every day. Please continue....and fully come to terms with the fact that the common evil between fascism and communism is the state.

The description in that post is admittedly oversimplified, and that -IS- a characteristic of the typical "Ancap Idiot." Let me reassure you that I don't waste time on the ideological labels that ancaps enjoy wearing while they dress up in their mothers clothes.

Zam :roll:
#14928507
So much bitterness. Struck a nerve did I? Please, release your anger.

Image
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14928510
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Please, release your anger.

Image


Anger? nah ... it's just, that dress looked lots better on your mom ...

Zam
#14928513
Zamuel wrote: it's just, that dress looked lots better on your mom ...


Really Bro?........REALLY? :eh:

Image
User avatar
By One Degree
#14928525
Why think about anything when you can just label it and put it on a shelf?
Memes are high art in accomplishing this.
“It’s FASCISM, baby.” Seems intended to end debate rather than generate it.
#14928667
Looks like nobody cares about my arguments or civilized discussion.
Thread degraded to memes exchange...


Zamuel wrote:I have lots of patience, but I don't waste any on BS attempts to redefine classic definitions so an author can use them as Jingoistic emotional buzzwords to try and support his cause. Commutards like to do this a lot it seems, as fascism is a competitive form of cooperative organization.

Pathological anti-Communism detected. Maybe you are McCarthy fan?

Zamuel wrote:The only real difference between Communism and Fascism is semantic. Communism proposes that the State serves the People, while under fascism People serve the State. Both are simple illusions erected to justify state repression of Freedom.

Illiterate BS. Also fanatical worshiping of fake capitalist "freedom" detected.
I always like to ask Usans - why your "freedom" is so much compatible with SLAVERY?

Zamuel wrote:Liberalism initiates freedom and specifies that government shall not impinge upon it. As long as peoples freedom is maintained either cooperative or competitive organization is allowed. People seem to like this.

Freedom for moneybags, my poor misguided friend. Not for people.

P.S. https://darkhon.livejournal.com/3120707.html Totalitarianism VS Democracy. Russian, use Translate.

P.P.S.
"Как сделать из человека раба? Нужны только два условия: не давать накапливать жир, и иметь запас голодных за воротами — всё, работнику деваться некуда, он будет работать на износ, лишь бы не оказаться за воротами. Идеальное рабство, не требующее никаких дополнительных механизмов — ни заботы о сохранности раба, ни издержек на его покупку, ни охранников с надсмотрщиками. Раб все издержки несёт на себе, да ещё и считает себя свободным".
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
https://darkhon.livejournal.com/3120629.html
Russian, use Translate.
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14928693
Rakshasa wrote:Looks like nobody cares about my arguments or civilized discussion.

Probably not.

Pathological anti-Communism detected.

No, you're detecting a pathological anti-bullshit imperative. I'm very much in favor of cooperative effort and a big fan of Nikita Khruschev.

Freedom for moneybags, my poor misguided friend. Not for people.

No, the moneybags have to put up with a lot more regulation, red tape, and bureaucracy. "Freedoms just another word for nothin left to loose", as the song says.

Zam
#14929045
and a big fan of Nikita Khruschev
Asshole who screw up everything? QED.

"Freedoms just another word for nothin left to loose", as the song says.
Freedom is synonym of poverty?
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14929061
Rakshasa wrote:"Freedoms just another word for nothin left to loose", as the song says.
Freedom is synonym of poverty?

More like, "freedom is the antithesis of responsibility."

Zam
User avatar
By One Degree
#14929063
Careful @Zamuel , I am pretty sure ‘responsibility’ is racist, sexist, communist, or something. Anyway, I know people don’t like it.

Isn’t it already a ‘human right’ to not be responsible for anything?
By Doug64
#14929083
Crantag wrote:I understand fascism as a bit the opposite. It's about corporate influence of government. Government for the corporation. Practically speaking, it is somewhat the inversion of communism, where the latter is based on government control of corporations, and banks.

No, Communism isn’t about government control of corporations, but their elimination and replacement with government ownership and management while looking forward to the day where the totalitarianism magically morphs into the Workers’ Paradise — Socialism with an eschatology.

And no, Fascism/Nazism isn’t about corporate influence of government, but government control of corporations — what you claim Communism is about. It’s a devil’s bargain, where the government reduces and possibly eliminates competition, perhaps even guarantees a bit of a profit, and in return the favored corporations dance to the government’s tune. A perfect example of a fascistic policy is Obamacare.

If you want an example of an American fascistic regime, rather than a single policy, the best example is probably the Wilson administration during WWI.
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14929147
One Degree wrote:Isn’t it already a ‘human right’ to not be responsible for anything?

Not that I know of. In many cases it's a human obligation.

Anyway … Facism is -not- an "evil" ideology. In many ways it's the most practical and suitable system available for a stable society. Ayn Rand tried to demonstrate this but was kind of shouted down in her era. It appealed to innovators like Henry Ford. Juan Peron used it to great advantage for Argentina. It's biggest problem stems from it's lack of a balancing system to offset excessive personal power.

Ideally fascism needs a dedicated population, people who need not be coerced into cooperation. An easily available escape route for the disaffected must exist to prevent internal dissension. Fascism is intended to exploit the advantages of unity and cooperation. If allowed to do so without internal distraction, or external interference, it will outpace any other system of government.

Zam
By Sivad
#14929148
Zamuel wrote:Ideally fascism needs a dedicated population, people who need not be coerced into cooperation. An easily available escape route for the disaffected must exist to prevent internal dissension. Fascism is intended to exploit the advantages of unity and cooperation. If allowed to do so without internal distraction, or external interference, it will outpace any other system of government.


Yeah, let's not turn society into one giant termitary.
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