[Hong Wu]

It may seem counter-intuitive but part of the western conception of masculinity (which is essentially treated as misogyny today) was that you shouldn't be overly focused on pleasing women and having sex. If you are, that meant (to put it simply) that you are a weak man. This was perhaps related to the celibacy that was often associated with forms of male religious orders, including martial orders if we go back far enough in time, a real man was not someone who fucks a lot of bitches but someone who ignores bitches. This meant, of course, that to be a real man was a spiritual issue and not related to things that Incels dwell upon, such as penis size.

Notice that the valuation and standards that Incels use to value men are identical to the standards used by low-end women.

As such, even though the Incel and the feminist may seem to be mortal enemies, the Incel is actually a creation of feminism to the point where their standards for male success are in some cases identical. Just as feminists sometimes secretly celebrate the extreme "alpha male", so do Incels. The solution to Incels then is not more feminism, it's more masculinity because it is a socially constructive form of masculinity that ultimately rejects crude standards for men. Women cannot effectively set standards for men; men need to set standards for men.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

That's a good question. Hong Wu, since you randomly know so much about what being an incel is like, are incels related to the collapse of masculinity?

[Hong Wu]

yes

[skinster]

Masculinity is a mostly shit social construct imposed on you by the system you live under. It's also something you can ignore to a large degree, if you choose to avoid being a cuck.

[Godstud]

Incels were always there, but they weren't so vocal about it, because they'd come off as complete tossers! Being anonymous on the internet is easy, so that's why they congregate online, and not in person. I am amazed so many are willing to admit they're complete losers.

There is no "collapse of masculinity" except int he eyes of conservatives who don't like a bit of change.

This is good, and funny.

[Rancid]

Notice that the valuation and standards that Incels use to value men are identical to the standards used by low-end women.

what's a low-end woman?

[SolarCross]

what's a low-end woman?

hoes and slags

[Godstud]

That's your problem, right there... There are no low-end women.

Masculinity is not collapsing. Masculinity is merely changing, and some people cannot deal with it, and others already couldn't deal with women, anyhow. There's always been these people, but now they can congregate and blame it on the females of the species for not being attracted to total losers.

The 'boys' who can't deal with women(they can hardly deal with themselves) have a voice on the internet, where they can join Incel or MGTOW and talk about how they've been wronged by women. They haven't been wronged by women, however, but by themselves.

[SolarCross]

On the other hand when monogamous mating conventions are reasonably well enforced the low end males are able to hook up with someone and have a reasonable expectation of not getting cuckolded. This occurs when:

- Polygamous marriage is illegal.
- Extra-marital sex is illegal and sternly punished.
- Divorce is difficult or impossible.

For europeans these mores correlated with Christian morality. With the decline in Christian morality the monogamy reinforcing laws and conventions have declined too. The first, concurrent polygamous marriage, is still illegal in most places but that is inconsequential when extra-marital sex is completely tolerated legally and divorces are easy. So these looser rules of sexual conduct enables a kind of pervasive unofficial polygamy and this has caused the tide to go out for the lesser males.

[Godstud]

The "lesser males" have always had the same damned problems. It's only now they can get together on the internet with others of their weak character, and complain about it, loudly and impotently.

[SolarCross]

:roll: The "lesser males" have always had the same damned problems. It's only now they can get together on the internet with others of their weak character, and complain about it, loudly and impotently.

Yes but the law used to back them up and level the playing field for them, now it doesn't.

[Godstud]

No, I don't believe that's true.

Divorce law did not affect Incels.

How did it "level the playing field" for losers? Socially inept people have always had problems. This is nothing new. The complaints and bitching about it IS new, because they have a forum to air their pathetic grievances.

[SolarCross]

No, I don't believe that's true.

Divorce law did not affect Incels.

How did it "level the playing field" for losers? Socially inept people have always had problems. This is nothing new. The complaints and bitching about it IS new, because they have a forum to air their pathetic grievances.

Yes it does and it affects MGTOW* too. If divorce is difficult or impossible:

1. An alpha male can't make a sequential polygamy by moving from one marriage to another.
2. Females can't hedge their bets with an easy to acquire marriage to a lesser man for use as a springboard for finding a better quality mate.
3. Females don't have an escape route in case of being discovered in the act of cuckoldry

*MGTOW as I understand it are a step above incels in that they were able to get some kind of female, they just couldn't keep them or were cuckolded.

[Godstud]

Well get used to reality. Divorce isn't difficult or impossible to get any more, and that still wouldn't prevent people from moving out on each other.

1. An alpha male can't make a sequential polygamy by moving from one marriage to another.

So what? Multiple marriages is not a sign of an alpha male, but someone who makes poor decisions.

2. Females can hedge their bets with a easy to acquire marriage to a weak man for use as a springboard for finding a better quality mate.

Yes, it's a shame they have the right to choose not to stay with a loser. The reason no-fault divorce became a thing was specifically because women were being given equal rights. MGTOW and Incels lament that day, because they needed something to FORCE women to stay with them, even after they find out what losers they truly are.

3. Females don't have an escape route in case of being discovered in the act of cuckoldry

They also didn't have an escape from abusive husbands.

*MTGOW as I understand it are a step above incels in that they were able to get some kind of female, they just couldn't keep them or were cuckolded.

MGTOW are even more pathetic than Incels. They're men who feel they were wronged and life isn't fair, because they failed in their relationships. They blame women, because it's so much easier to blame someone else than yourself.

[SolarCross]

:roll: Well get used to reality. Divorce isn't difficult or impossible to get any more, and that still wouldn't prevent people from moving out on each other.

Actually I am fine with this state of affairs (pardon the pun). Polygamy (unofficial or not) has a eugenic dividend at the price of social stability. There are pros and cons to all things. I just like a clear understanding of how things are. You seem to prefer emotional unrealistic idealism.

So what? Multiple marriages is not a sign of an alpha male, but someone who makes poor decisions.

Only in your imagination. In reality the male that can score multiple marriages each bearing his reproductive fruit has not just won the mating game but slam dunked it.

Yes, it's a shame they have the right to choose not to stay with a loser. The reason no-fault divorce became a thing was specifically because women were being given equal rights.

Equal rights are a red herring because there is no equality in enabling polygamy. Whoever wins someone else loses. I don't care about equality so of course the incels can go without for all I care, but it is what it is.

They also didn't have an escape from abusive husbands.

True though men also didn't have an escape from abusive wives either... So that goes both ways.

MGTOW are even more pathetic than Incels. They're men who feel they were wronged and life isn't fair, because they failed in their relationships. They blame women, because it's so much easier to blame someone else than yourself.

You are being far too emotional for a rational discussion on this subject.

[Godstud]

You are being far too emotional for a rational discussion on this subject.

I am not emotional nor irrational. You aren't going to shut down discussion with that sort of talk.

Incels and MGTOW are simply failed heterosexual men, who lack social skills, and/or confidence. They've had no success or poor success at relationships with women, and so they seek to blame women for their failures. They are playing the "Blame Game".

Instead of trying harder, these males just complain and try to find other people who think like they do. They then form groups and this only reinforces their shit personalities and crap social skills.

This collapse of masculinity that you, and others speak of, is simply in your minds.

Incels? Celibacy IS a choice.

MGTOW? Men who failed in relationships and can't find fault with themselves, so they blame women.

Both sad and pathetic in their own ways. Going back to repeat stupidity(making divorce illegal), isn't going to help anyone. It's quite ridiculous, actually.

[SolarCross]

I am not emotional nor irrational. You aren't going to shut down discussion with that sort of talk.

Incels and MGTOW are simply failed heterosexual men, who lack social skills, and/or confidence. They've had no success or poor success at relationships with women, and so they seek to blame women for their failures. They are playing the "Blame Game".

Instead of trying harder, these males just complain and try to find other people who think like they do. They then form groups and this only reinforces their shit personalities and crap social skills.

This collapse of masculinity that you, and others speak of, is simply in your minds.

Incels? Celibacy IS a choice.

MGTOW? Men who failed in relationships and can't find fault with themselves, so they blame women.

Both sad and pathetic in their own ways. Going back to repeat stupidity(making divorce illegal), isn't going to help anyone. It's quite ridiculous, actually.

More emotional bleating. Really it is you shutting down the debate by constantly nagging about incels not being man enough for you, yes we know that, try not to obsess over it. Ironically you sound exactly like the low end female @Hong Wu talked about in the OP.

[Godstud]

More emotional bleating.

Facts. I guess you hate those, and want to shut down any argument with your pathetic"emotional", argument. Pretty fucking weaksauce, @SolarCross. I expect better from you.

Can you prove to me that Incels and MGTOW aren't simply people with social ineptness, or people with psychological issues related to blaming others for their failures?

Victoribus Spolia went to MGTOW and got punted once they found out he was married. Does that sound like people who want to connect with other men, or even share their experiences with anyone who isn't of the same ilk?

The only low end person is one who is attempting to shut down dissent with ad hominems.

The Incel (Involuntary Celibacy) Problem
Blaming and externalizing the problem.
Once trust is built, the other challenge is helping people recognize their own role in the dynamic of rejection. This is very difficult because it’s much easier to blame others than take responsibility for our own challenges. Sure, we can’t change our appearances and/or other limitations, but we can learn to start with self-love instead of self-hatred. Self-hatred not only fuels self-hatred, but in certain profiles can lead to hating others so much that you want to see people hurt and/or killed. This is why I believe the Incel problem isn’t necessarily an external romantic issue as much as a self-image issue. In short, it's not society rejecting Incels but Incels rejecting themselves.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... cy-problem

[SolarCross]

What the fuck are you even talking about now? No one here, least of all me, is denying the existence of lesser men, MGTOW and incels. You are mad at them for not being man enough for you while I am indifferent to them but we both agree they are lesser men, this is completely uncontroversial so why keep emotionally nagging about it? I don't care about them at all. I am just unemotionally interested in how we are phasing from Christian monogamy to neo-pagan polygamy and what the social consequences will be. I foresee an eugenic dividend at the expense of a bachelor herd of cucks and incels potentially becoming disruptive to civilisation. The frustrated bachelor herd are the perfect targets for recruitment by revolutionary agitators and warmongers, after all.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Victoribus Spolia went to MGTOW and got punted once they found out he was married. Does that sound like people who want to connect with other men, or even share their experiences with anyone who isn't of the same ilk?

This is correct, in around 3 hrs.

I'll be honest, I never got so dog-piled in a forum in my life and I have posted in some of the darker places of the internet being formerly of the Alt. Right.

There is a deep and disturbing TRUE misogyny going on in MGTOW (and with INCELS) that should be seen as really concerning.

Thing is, racists are rarely "dangerous" in the sense that many of them are married or are dating likewise racist chicks and their extreme views are tempered by "real-life" in having a job, family, etc. This is a good thing.

My concern with both MGTOWs and INCELS is that they seem to have been either so screwed-over or have nothing to lose that they are prime targets for radicalization. Men often find their meaning as men in their sexual performance, indeed this is not necessarily undone among married men either, but these guys find themselves in situations where they begin to despair because of either past-wrongs (MGTOW) or current failures (INCELS) in that area.

I legitimately believe these two groups are FAR more prone to violent extremism and irrationality than any actual far-right group, and let me be clear, despite some of socio-cultural insights some of these groups have, they are NOT right-wing, and they aren't LEFT wing, they are just Black-Pill cultists.

That is my honest opinion.

I joined a MGTOW forum because I had serious questions about, and an interest in, concepts like hypergamy, aystemmetrical sex selection, the sublimation of sexual energy, male-expendability theory, et al. These dudes didn't want to chat about that.

Likewise, many of their leaders (including the head of that forum), were even more radical than I realized. I assumed that MGTOW were men who despaired because of the inability to have or acquire a traditional lifestyle (to the right of MRAs), but that was NOT THE CASE. Indeed, their leader believes that marriage and traditional roles were ALWAYS wrong. Indeed, he believed that true freedom requires true and complete independence of women, for any relationship with women, whether patriarchal or egalitarian, is always slavery; thus, implying a radical anti-natalist nihilism the likes of which I have rarely seen even in the craziest of ultra-leftist environmentalist circles.

Applying this ideaology to men who are already legitimately hurt and alienated, and sometimes who have been legitimately wronged (as is the case with many MGTOWs), is more than just a little dangerous.

I say this as a staunch patriachal critic of egalitarianism. MGTOW and INCEL movements should give us legit pause for concern.

I mean that.