Beware the Race Reductionist - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14942845
A hostage situation has emerged on the left. And progressive policies like “Medicare for All,” a $15 minimum wage, free public education, a “Green New Deal,” and even net neutrality, are the captives.

The captors? Bad faith claims of bigotry.

According to an increasingly popular narrative among the center-left, a dispiriting plurality of progressives are “class reductionists” — people who believe that economic equality is a cure-all for societal ills, and who, as a result, would neglect policy prescriptions which seek to remedy identity-based disparities.

[...]

If you’re #online, like I am, you’re probably already familiar with the main argument. It goes something like this: If a policy doesn’t resolve racism “first,” it’s at worst racist, and at best not worth pursuing.

[...]

a house of cards first constructed by Hillary Clinton during the 2016 presidential primary campaign: “If we broke up the big banks tomorrow,” she famously asked, “would that end racism? Would that end sexism? Would that end discrimination against the LGBT community? Would that make people feel more welcoming to immigrants overnight?”

It was a daring and adroit deception: Ignore this structural salve that would upset the status quo, she implied, because it won’t resolve that more personal, more visceral issue which goes straight to the heart of your identity.

Notice that this trick is aimed at policies which would threaten significant corporate or entrenched interests: The insurance industry, the banking industry, the energy sector, lenders. As the University of California, Berkeley, law professor and leading scholar on race Ian Haney-López observed as we discussed the motives behind this framing, mainstream Democrats, like Republicans, “are funded by large donors. Of course they’re concerned about the interests of the top 1 percent.” It’s almost as if the real agenda here isn’t ending racism, but deterring well-meaning liberals from policies that would upset the Democratic Party’s financial base.

[...]

The cruel irony is that as much as it wouldn’t have ended racism, breaking up the banks, and properly regulating them, would have a positive effect on the economic, and consequently, the social status of black and Hispanic Americans. Banks, left to their own devices, systematically give blacks worse loans with higher interest rates than whites with worse credit histories. Yet there was little talk of those racial impacts when, this spring, 33 Democrats (including 9 Congressional Black Caucus members) joined with Republicans to roll back protections contained in the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Act.

African-Americans are disproportionately victimized by predatory lending, and as a result, we were among the worst affected by the 2008 housing crisis (from which the bottom still hasn’t recovered). Of course, the goal of breaking up banks was to avoid a repeat of the collapse which wiped out 40 percent of black wealth — hardly an incidental issue to African Americans, who rank the economy, jobs, health care and poverty above race relations when asked to rate our chief political concerns.

[...]

Our Revolution President and former Bernie Sanders surrogate Nina Turner described race reductionism as “ludicrous.” “Identity can be used in a positive way to say, ‘Hey: we must recognize that there’s an undergirding concern across all issues in this country,’” for which race is a “major variable,” she told me. “But it is entirely another different story to say we’re going to use some of the most progressive ideas and advancements in this country and say we can’t do them because they hurt [marginalized people]. To me it’s just asinine.”

She’s right.

[...]

Just look at presumed 2020 hopeful Sen. Kamala Harris’s recent defense of identity politics at the Netroots conference earlier this month.

Seeming to either misunderstand or ignore the critique of identity politics from the left, she argued that the term “identity politics” is used to “divide and it is used to distract. Its purpose is to minimize and marginalize issues that impact all of us.” “It is used to try to shut us up,” she said.

[...]

But the left’s critique of identity politics is not really a critique of identity politics at all, but of the cynical weaponization of identity for political ends. By conflating the two, Harris managed to delegitimize the left’s critique, and strengthen the Democratic Party’s ability to continue to weaponize identity with impunity — whether or not that was her intent.

Harris averred that she wouldn’t be dissuaded from talking about immigrant rights, women’s rights, equal justice, or other concerns relating to marginalized groups. Nor should she. But I suspect that this shoring up of identity politics is not just a defense against attacks on substantive equality from the right. It’s preparation for a war against leftist candidates sure to enter the ring in 2020.

[...]

“We think that race, in particular, is a purely social issue and not connected to economics or reproductive justice or criminal justice,” said Gunn-Wright, arguing that, in fact, both class and race are always part of the equation. “I think identities are incredibly important and shape the way we move throughout the world, and they shape the way that people treat us and the way our government treats us. . . It’s just been deployed in this way that shuts down progress instead of embracing it, and also assumes in a very strange way that black people wouldn’t want this sort of progress, or wouldn’t benefit from it.”

Dr. Touré Reed, professor of 20th Century U.S. and African American History at Illinois State University, observed that the presumption that black Americans aren’t equally or more invested in economic interventions as white Americans is “pregnant, of course, with class presumptions” which work well for the black and Latinx professional middle class — many of whom play a significant role in defining public narratives via their work in politics or media. Since “the principal beneficiaries of universal policies would be poor and working class people who would disproportionately be black and brown,” he told me, “dismissing such policies on the grounds that they aren’t addressing systemic racism is a sleight of hand of sorts.”

[...]

“There is a tendency to reduce issues that have quite a bit to do with the economic opportunities available to all Americans, African Americans among them, and in some instances overrepresented among them, to matters of race,” explained Dr. Reed, who is currently writing a book on the conservative implications of race reductionism. He pointed to the water crisis in Flint, Michigan, as well as the mass incarceration crisis, as examples. “In both those instances, Flint and the criminal justice system, whites are 40 percent, or near 40 percent, of the victims,” he said. And that’s an awfully high number for collateral damage.” He went on: “There’s something systemic at play. But it can’t be reduced, be reducible, to race.”

[...]

About a month ago, in anticipation of writing this, I asked Twitter to remind me of any tweets or articles that had unfairly framed progressive policies as negative because they would not end bigotry. I expected maybe a dozen responses. But that thread is now at over 200 posts, and has been retweeted over 2,000 times. The scale of this is unnerving.

Sally Albright, a Democratic Party communications consultant, argues often that free college is “racist” because mostly white people go to college and it reinforces the status quo.

Senior Legal Analyst at Rewire News and popular Twitter personality Imani Gandy suggested to her 124,000 followers that caring about Wall Street is evidence of white privilege, writing: “I would love to wake up in the morning and have my first thought be ‘I hate Wall Street.’ That’s the whitest thing I’ve ever heard.”

In a similar vein, Deray McKesson, popular podcastor, charter school advocate, and Black Lives Matter icon, retweeted a tweet which read: “Wall Street didn’t nominate a Sec of Education that believed guns and bibles have more place in schools than LGBT and disabled students,” implying that because Wall Street isn’t to blame for anti-LGBT policies, the financial industry doesn’t merit critique from black and/or LGBT Americans at all.

When someone pointed out that New York Times columnist Charles Blow shouldn’t be uncomfortable with a 50-plus percent tax rate for rich because taxes were even higher in the New Deal era, Blow tweeted back: “You can feel free to return to the 30s. Wasn’t so great for my folks” — as though a high tax rate necessitates a return to Jim Crow terrorism.

An anonymous, but popular, Twitter personality disparaged a job guarantee program because black people “had 100% employment for 250 years,” meaning slavery, and it “didn’t help” racism.

In a Vice article, Monica Potts claims to support single-payer health care while cautioning against Sanders’s plan on the basis that it would destroy jobs worked by low income women — never mind that it would provide those women with health care they disproportionately lack. (Her point that any job-eliminating programs would cause less harm if a strong social safety net were in place is a sound one, but it ignores that Sanders’s plan is being proposed in conjunction with exactly the types of social safety net fortifications she seeks.)

Terrell Jermaine Starr, a journalist at The Root with a history of writing articles on the theme of Sanders’s alleged black problem, wrote a begrudging acknowledgment of the Senator’s new bill addressing the inequities of cash bail in a piece ungenerously titled: “Bernie Sanders Takes on Unjust Cash Bail System, but Still Doesn’t Make Direct Connection to Institutional Racism.”

Sally Albright distilled the essence of this dominant strain of criticism when she tweeted: “Sorry kids, no way around it, if you say a policy ‘helps all Americans equally,’ that policy is racist. Structural racism must be addressed.”

Some of the worst of these interlocutors aren’t mainstream, thank goodness, even though they have significant influence on Twitter. The anonymous Twitter user who argued that we have to maintain capitalism because “Ending capitalism WILL displace people of color. Money is what keeps us in the game,” or Sally Albright’s tweet that “Income inequality’ is only a priority for cis white men,” ultimately don’t matter. But I’m concerned that the growing popularity of this framing will make it that much easier for politicians to exploit the left’s good faith concern about identity-based disparities in order to disperse enthusiasm for policies that seek to transform the economic status quo.

Ending racism is a necessary, critical goal. But that goal should be pursued in tandem with efforts to address the effects of racism. The wage gap, the health care gap, the education gap, the debt gap — all these disparities would be narrowed by progressive, intersectional economic programs. As popular opinion coalesces around these policies, it’s crucial that we not let our best impulses be weaponized against our interests, any more than conservatives weaponize the worst impulses of their constituents against theirs.

https://theintercept.com/2018/08/26/bew ... uctionist/

@ 55:00
#14942850
An anonymous, but popular, Twitter personality disparaged a job guarantee program because black people “had 100% employment for 250 years,” meaning slavery, and it “didn’t help” racism.


In fairness to that anonymous pundit communists are always promising 100% employment but what they mean is slavery and they shoot the "unemployed". Being skeptical of "job guarantee programs" is healthy and reasonable.
#14942851
Hilary had a brilliant two pronged strategy to win the Presidency. Remember Hilary lost the 2008 Presidential election because she wasn't Black enough. It was disgusting anti White bigotry that gave Obama, the Black, stand for nothing, amoral nobody, the Democratic nomination. Hilary was rightfully angry about this terrible racial injustice against her. She was determined that next time she was going be the benefactor not the victim off the ever increasing anti White hatred in America.

So she got Donald Trump to play spoiler with the Republicans, mean while she unleashed the "Black lies matter" goons on Sanders. :lol: Was I the only one who thought it was funny that Hilary the WASP managed to label Sanders the Jew as too White. The thing is the strategy worked.

But then she made her terrible error. Having won the nomination, she thought she just had to seal the deal by swearing fealty to the Neo Cons. but the Neo Cons betrayed her. A warning to anyone else ever tempted to put their trust in those people. The Neo Cons failed to endorse her. But that Neo-Con turn cost her dear. It deeply demoralised left radicals, whose enthusiasm was absolutely critical to turning out the White base and keeping the centre-left alliance against Trump solid. It was also one too many turns. It exposed her to the public as the amoral liar that she is. Black lies matter champion and Neo Con whore just didn't quite come off as plausible.
#14942872
Sally Albright, a Democratic Party communications consultant, argues often that free college is “racist” because mostly white people go to college and it reinforces the status quo.


This is a fair point too. "Free" fully tax funded college is basically a forcible transfer of wealth from those who pay tax but don't like to go to college to those who do like to go. To make it even worse those that go to college usually end up with more privileged higher status positions in government, and thus literally becoming the ruling class. It's basically parasitism. Quite plausibly the American with African heritage would be more likely to be on the losing end of that injustice.
#14942880
Rancid wrote:100% employment = massive inflation.

In the current economic system 100% employment is impossible, and a bad thing.

A labour shortage in a market economy is a highly desirable things. Monetary and fiscal policy can be tightened to offset inflationary pressures. This will lead to higher wages particularly among the poorer paid. It will actually reduce the real income of the highest paid and lower profits. Hence labour shortages lead to reduced inequality, lower crime levels, greater civic participation and greater civic /national cohesion.

We saw this classically in the aftermath of the Black death. A work force of 2 million and employers were screaming about a labour shortage. Now we've got 30 million and they're still whining. In 17th and 18th Century North America, they demanded Black slaves to fill the so called labour shortage. After WWII in Europe they demanded German slave labour and from there they went on to West Indians, North Africans, Turks and Pakistanis. In Israel before the Intifada Israeli business wanted to flood Israel with Arab Muslim labour. There's no end to their madness. But when the demented greed of so many business people combines with the demented self hating idealism of Cultural Marxism it makes for a deadly combination.
#14942881
We saw this classically in the aftermath of the Black death. A work force of 2 million and employers were screaming about a labour shortage.


I think this is a myth actually. The Black Death of course killed millions of workers but it also killed millions of consumers and millions of employers. To put in another way it reduced the labour demand at the same time it reduced the labour supply.

If it killed the old more than the young then it may have caused a relative shortage of skilled labour, maybe.
#14942888
Rich wrote:A labour shortage in a market economy is a highly desirable things. Monetary and fiscal policy can be tightened to offset inflationary pressures. This will lead to higher wages particularly among the poorer paid. It will actually reduce the real income of the highest paid and lower profits. Hence labour shortages lead to reduced inequality, lower crime levels, greater civic participation and greater civic /national cohesion.


Actually, what would happen with 100% employment is inflation that cannot be controlled by monetary policy. However, it will eventually stabilize (I think). Basically, inflation will go up, until employment becomes non-100% (the inflation itself would force companies to lay people off), as which point prices and wages will stabilize.

The economic ideal is to have low unemployment, not no unemployment. Which is very telling about the capitalism system. Basically, it doesn't want everyone to have a decent and secure job. :lol:
#14942889
People always denigrate the medieval period as the "dark ages" and as a time when Christians ruined the west with their superstitions, but in reality the renaissance was praxeologically predictable given their worldview and the european social order, it was because of the black death, the viking conquests, Islamic expansion, the mini ice-age etc., that advancement in the medieval period did not reach "renaissance levels" until when it did. Had none of these set-backs occurred, I am confident that the renaissance would have started in the late 9th century.

Rancid wrote:The economic ideal is to have low unemployment, not no unemployment. Which is very telling about the capitalism system. Basically, it doesn't want everyone to have a decent and secure job.


Why should everyone have a decent and secure job? Not everyone deserves such or even desires such....the market merely accommodates this fact of human nature.

That such would create natural hierarchies is to be expected and embraced.
#14942891
Anyone who trusts the center-right or Hillary Clinton for anti racist activism is an idiot. Hillary Clinton (alongside her husband) has a history of racist policy and she herself used race-baiting political ads against Obama in 2008 when he was up in the polls. Structural changes to empower working class blacks is what will defeat racism anyway. Minorities are powerless against forces of structural racism until they have the power of strong unions and some economic independence.

@Victoribus Spolia Not everyone is a heartless feudalist who doesn't recognize how they were gifted a good turn by virtue of birth. It's good that you constantly frame your politics in this light though because it's helpful to illuminate the end result of libertarianism.
#14942893
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Why should everyone have a decent and secure job? Not everyone deserves such or even desires such....the market merely accommodates this fact of human nature.

That such would create natural hierarchies is to be expected and embraced.


Maybe this is the best we can do given how we have naturally evolved.

This is why I sincerely believe that we have evolved sub-optimally. That is, we took a wrong turn on the evolutionary tree a few million years ago, and thus we are doomed to be naturally selected for extinction (we are going to hit the so called "great filter".). I think that we would be better off today if our brains had evolved to better understand that its in our self-interest to collaborate more. Especially as technology becomes more sophisticated. Perhaps then, our economic systems would match this alternative nature which would be more communistic (or whatever other system that's more collaborative and cooperative).

In short, we're fucked in the long term. :)

We like to think of ourselves as highly evolved, and many of us think we're perfectly evolved. I would argue, this is not the case, and we will be selected out like any other creature has been selected out through geologic history.
#14942896
Rancid wrote:Maybe this is the best we can do given how we have naturally evolved.

This is why I sincerely believe that we have evolved sub-optimally. That is, we took a wrong turn on the evolutionary tree a few million years ago, and thus we are doomed to be naturally selected for extinction (we are going to hit the so called "great filter".). I think that we would be better off today if our brains had evolved to better understand that its in our self-interest to collaborate more. Especially as technology becomes more sophisticated. Perhaps then, our economic systems would match this alternative nature which would be more communistic (or whatever other system that's more collaborative and cooperative).

In short, we're fucked in the long term.

We like to think of ourselves as highly evolved, and many of us think we're perfectly evolved. I would argue, this is not the case, and we will be selected out like any other creature has been selected out through geologic history.


Well, if assuming an evolutionary anthropology, you cannot "miss-evolve" in the sense that those traits particular to humans were nonetheless naturally selected as the best fitted to our collective survival, its the short-terms abandoning of them that should make people pause.

Think of it this way @Rancid

If over millions of years we were hard-wired to find true joy from patriarchal gender roles, how would the artificial reversal of them in just 100 years be considered positive?

Even 500 years of sustained attempts to eliminate these values could not undue what is claimed to be millions of years of hard-wiring. Until we evolve into a different species altogether, our genetics determine what makes our collective existence and relations work, and its not communism or socialism. Its natural heirarchies.

Critiquing this fact is not going to change the fundamental fact, our happiness and success cannot be found in abandoning our own nature and this nature cannot change except by something that can undue this hard-wiring over another million years.

If this is the case, at some point, the left needs to cut its losses and embrace the natural order, the source of true human satisfaction.

:D

Red_Army wrote:Not everyone is a heartless feudalist who doesn't recognize how they were gifted a good turn by virtue of birth.


Image

Red_Army wrote:It's good that you constantly frame your politics in this light though because it's helpful to illuminate the end result of libertarianism.


Thanks.

I don't want there to be any confusion, libertarianism pursued to its end of anarcho-capitalism will yield the natural order, which approximates feudalism in its advanced form.

I embrace this fully; though consistent socialism, when honestly discussed, has not exactly been know for its popular appeal either. Especially regarding its handling of "dissenting" opinions. 8)
#14942902
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Well, if assuming an evolutionary anthropology, you cannot "miss-evolve" in the sense that those traits particular to humans were nonetheless naturally selected as the best fitted to our collective survival, its the short-terms abandoning of them that should make people pause.

Think of it this way @Rancid

If over millions of years we were hard-wired to find true joy from patriarchal gender roles, how would the artificial reversal of them in just 100 years be considered positive?

Even 500 years of sustained attempts to eliminate these values could not undue what is claimed to be millions of years of hard-wiring. Until we evolve into a different species altogether, our genetics determine what makes our collective existence and relations work, and its not communism or socialism. Its natural heirarchies.

Critiquing this fact is not going to change the fundamental fact, our happiness and success cannot be found in abandoning our own nature and this nature cannot change except by something that can undue this hard-wiring over another million years.

If this is the case, at some point, the left needs to cut its losses and embrace the natural order, the source of true human satisfaction.


I think you can miss-evolve. Evolutionary traits can be completely benign and thus carry on. Some can be critical to survival and thus carry on. You could even have a trait that is generally bad (or not good), but not so bad that it will completely get selected out, and thus that too can carry on. In other words, evolution is not binary/discrete. It is also not perfect. Just because you've survived so far, doesn't mean you are optimized for the long term. It only means you have optimized enough to survive as long as you currently have.

Hence, I think the hypothesis that we could be sub-optimally evolved for long term survival is not a DOA idea.

I agree, we cannot change our evolution. Thus, it is very possible we are doomed for long term survival. It is possible we are sub-optimal for the long term. Our evolutionary track might be good enough to get us to today, but it might not be good enough to get us into the far future.

As for how the patriarchy fits into that, I have no idea. I don't deny that it may have helped our survival to date.
#14942906
Rancid wrote:I don't deny that it may have helped our survival to date.


Then why should we presume its not necessary and less-fulfilling for us going forward?

That seems almost arrogant if you think about it...." We can do better than millions of years of development as was necessary for our existence (both in regards to survival and fulfillment)."


Either way, whether we are talking about patriarchy (traditionalism) or capitalism, none of the virtues/vices which contribute to those systems (as evolved) could be said to be benign or sub-optimal.

I mean, they were impactful and specific (opposite of benign) and their sufficiently optimal to get us here.

I guess if something about partiarchal and captialistic values was sub-optimal, the burden of proof would be on you to show it.....

Or perhaps you could just embrace our humanity. :D

What is really irnonic about this conversation, is that i'm not even an evolutionist. :lol:
#14942927
Victoribus Spolia wrote:If over millions of years we were hard-wired to find true joy from patriarchal gender roles, how would the artificial reversal of them in just 100 years be considered positive?

Agrarian Patriarchy only came about in the last 3 - 5000 years. It was different to horticultural society and different again to hunter gatherers. Men and women have innate difference, but the lefties know that. Modern feminism is not about hating men, its about hating White people. The purpose of attacking White men is to weaken white culture allowing Blacks and Muslims to take over. Feminists love rapists, as long their Black or Muslim.
#14942932
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Then why should we presume its not necessary and less-fulfilling for us going forward?

That seems almost arrogant if you think about it...." We can do better than millions of years of development as was necessary for our existence (both in regards to survival and fulfillment)."


I've not made the claim that patriarchy = bad. I was speaking much more broadly about the evolution stuff. I just wanted to make the point that it's reasonable to believe that we have not evolved optimally. With respect to the natural development of a patriarchy, the hell would any of us know if this is a good or bad thing for our long term survival.

There is certainly validity in saying "Well, it's gotten us this far, why can't it take us further?" That's a totally valid statement and reasonable position.
#14942949
Rancid wrote:There is certainly validity in saying "Well, it's gotten us this far, why can't it take us further?" That's a totally valid statement and reasonable position.


I guess I am wondering how an evolutionist could argue the reverse?

Any thoughts?

It seems given your argument, assuming human evolution as unchangeable, unless we change our biological nature through technology, we are either doomed to failure in pursuit of a global social democracy, or we will return to what our nature dictates (a cold and competitive market society of heirarchies and patriarchies)

Is that about right?
#14942951
Evolution depends on the current conditions of today. Whether that is beneficial or negative in the future depends on the conditions in the future. That is why many of the biggest giants of yesteryear are all but extinct. Humans can fall just as easily and I suspect they will actual. It isn't a question of if but when.
#14942954
Victoribus Spolia wrote:I guess I am wondering how an evolutionist could argue the reverse?

Any thoughts?

It seems given your argument, assuming human evolution as unchangeable, unless we change our biological nature through technology, we are either doomed to failure in pursuit of a global social democracy, or we will return to what our nature dictates (a cold and competitive market society of heirarchies and patriarchies)

Is that about right?


From a purely evolutionary standpoint. I guess you can't really argue against the reverse of that statement. Our current understanding of evolution can't give us insight into the future it seems.

As for the second part. Yea, something like that. I'll just add the point on top of that which is, either way, we could very likely be doomed (which goes back to the "I think we may have evolved sub-optimally").

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