Conservatives Can’t Decide If Nordic Socialism Is a Totalitarian Nightmare or Actually Capitalist - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14945904
@25:10

Europe’s social democracies failed to degenerate into totalitarian hellscapes. In fact, the most socialistic economies in the Western world — those of the Nordic countries — managed to put up rates of growth and innovation comparable to America’s, while guaranteeing all of their citizens access to affordable health care, child care, higher education, weeks-long vacations, exceptionally generous unemployment benefits, job training, and in Norway, a modicum of oil wealth.

For a while, Republicans could ignore these harrowing indications that there was, in fact, “an alternative.” But the revival of a movement for “democratic socialism” in the U.S. — led by a popular senator who cites the Nordics as his North Star — has forced the right’s thought leaders to explain why, precisely, Americans can’t have nice (Danish) things.

Thus far, the right has come up with two distinct — and utterly contradictory — answers.

Response No. 1: Nordic economic policies are a totalitarian nightmare.

Some conservatives are sticking to the old-time religion. Fox Business anchor Trish Regan recently likened Denmark to Nicolás Maduro’s Venezuela. And in a new column on the scourge of democratic socialism, Commentary’s Noah Rothman casts all proponents of single-payer health care as proto-Stalinists.

Rothman begins his polemic by acknowledging that conservatives have often exaggerated the extremism of the American left in the past. Barack Obama’s policies weren’t socialist, but merely “culturally progressive” — and Republicans were wrong to say otherwise, Rothman concedes. Still, the conservative writer is less perturbed by the right’s history of “rhetorical excesses” than by the possibility that “self-doubt” will prevent his fellow conservatives from calling a pinko a pinko in the present.

And make no mistake: America is hurtling down the road to serfdom at a terrifying pace. Democrats may think they “can control the monster they’re bringing back to life,” Rothman writes, but if socialists are given an opportunity to prevail at the polls, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer “will find themselves prisoners to their party’s collectivists soon enough. After all, taking captives is what socialism does best.” (Oddly, Rothman neglects to note that America outperforms socialism even at the latter’s supposed strong suit.)

Here’s how Rothman substantiates his claim that — this time — left-wing Democrats really are would-be Bolsheviks:

Political observers have been unable to ignore the Democratic Party’s recent turn away from Barack Obama’s signature health-care reform law and toward a government monopoly on health insurance. Call it Medicare-for-all or single-payer; the new affinity among Democrats for the functional nationalization of the health insurance industry speaks to a paradigm shift on the left. Likewise, establishing as a right the ability to access tuition-free education at public universities and a federal jobs guarantee—all planks of the Democratic Socialist agenda with increasingly broad appeal—are pillars of the Soviet Constitution.

It’s true that nationalized health insurance, tuition-free universities, and a commitment to promoting full employment through mass government hiring were all features of the Soviet system; but they’re also features of the Nordic social democracies and many of Western Europe’s mixed economies — and, for a little while there, the United States had two out of three. Rothman feels no need to explain why any attempt to implement this model in the 21st-century U.S. would bring Stalinist tyranny instead of Scandinavian “flexicurity.” He appears to genuinely believe that, “You know who else thought public education was a social good?” is an edifying argument.

Elsewhere in the piece, Rothman flags the progressive journalist Bryce Covert as a subversive for her “Marxist” critique of Marco Rubio’s family-leave plan. The Florida senator has proposed legislation that would provide America’s parents with paid leave — but only by allowing them to draw down on their future Social Security earnings. As Rubio has put it, he merely wants to let families “use their own money.” Covert felt this sentiment was wrongheaded, arguing that it “perpetuates the idea that child-rearing is an individual, not a collective, responsibility.” Which leads Rothman to solemnly inform his readers:

The collectivization of child-rearing and the breakdown of the “bourgeois family” so as “to rescue education from the influence of the ruling class” is straight out of the Communist Manifesto.

The argument here is that Covert’s description of child-rearing as a “collective responsibility” is telling, as it reflects the novel and nefarious influence of communist thought on the democratic left. Remarkably, Rothman goes on to contrast the lamentable Marxism of Covert & Co. with the moderate legacy of Bill and Hillary Clinton — apparently unaware that the latter wrote an entire book about how child-rearing is a collective responsibility.

Again, Rothman is content to rest his case on guilt by free association. Covert’s actual argument is not that the bourgeois family is a tool of the ruling class that must be destroyed — but rather, that affluent Americans who do not have children should subsidize the child-care costs of working-class ones who do. The logic of this point isn’t hard to discern: None of us will be able to retire if other Americans do not birth and raise a new generation of workers. And our nation’s falling birth rate makes this an immediate concern (rather than a merely theoretical one). Given that we all have a collective dependence on our nation producing more happy, healthy, productive human beings, why don’t we also have a collective responsibility to help bring this new generation into being?

Rothman’s sole answer is that that sentiment reminds him of a passage he once read in The Communist Manifesto. Ostensibly, if someone informed the columnist that Vladimir Lenin had once defined communism as “Soviet Power plus electrification of the whole country,” he would call on Democrats to disavow the light bulb.

This mode of argument might be sound enough to persuade Commentary’s aging, neoconservative readership that they are not out of touch (and that it is the children who are wrong). But to anyone who is aware that literally every other advanced democracy treats child-rearing as a collective responsibility, in the sense that Covert uses that phrase — and that none of those nations holds as many of its young people “captive” as the United States does — Rothman has nothing whatsoever to offer.


Option No. 2: Nordic economic policies are actually capitalist.

Some conservatives are willing to acknowledge the existence of Scandinavia. In fact, the right’s most agile thinkers are even willing to concede the Nordic model’s success — they just insist on (bizarrely) claiming that success as a vindication of their ideology.

The libertarian Cato Institute tweeted out its version of this argument Tuesday evening.

The claim that Denmark is somehow proof that a gentler socialism is preferable to free-market capitalism simply doesn't hold water. Denmark has quite a free-market economy, apart from its welfare state transfers and high government consumption.
— Cato Institute (@CatoInstitute) August 14, 2018

Cato’s case is less blinkered and juvenile than Rothman’s. But it is no less a testament to the obsolescence of the American right’s economic thought. The think tank’s 2015 paper, “The Danish Model — Don’t Try This at Home,” offers some empirical support for the (nevertheless, tendentious) claim that Denmark’s economic strength preceded its adoption of social democratic policies, and therefore, should not be attributed to them. Instead, the paper suggests that the real secret of the Nordic country’s success lies in its “strong protection of property rights and the integrity of the legal system,” along with its commitment to free trade, light touch with regulations, and the fact that its “labor market is very flexible: there is no legislated minimum wage, and there are few restrictions on hiring and firing.”

Even if we took Cato’s analysis of Denmark at face value, it would still leave Paul Ryan’s party with no leg to stand on. Perhaps Denmark’s welfare state isn’t the source of its strong economic growth. But there’s little question that the country’s aberrantly high levels of social spending are responsible for its exceptionally low levels of relative poverty and income inequality. If conservatives concede that it is possible for a country to provide all citizens with low-cost health insurance, child care, paid family leave, etc. — and still function as a vibrant, free-market economy — then how could they possibly justify the GOP’s ambition to throw millions of Americans off of Medicaid?

In its attempt to attribute the Nordics’ success to their least socialistic attributes, Cato writes that “Denmark is the least corrupt country in the world.” And yet, if it is possible for a country to have a historically large and ambitious public sector — and still be the most cleanly governed nation on the planet — what is left of Ronald Reagan’s philosophy of government? “Actually, according to the data, the best government is that which governs most” is no small concession!

And when we look at the Nordics’ actual economic model (as opposed to the one Cato invents for them) the think tank’s embrace of Denmark becomes even more irreconcilable with GOP orthodoxy. As policy analyst Matt Bruenig explains, the idea that, once you put their welfare states to one side, everything about the Nordics is “properly capitalist and even more capitalist than the United States” isn’t remotely true:

In addition to their large welfare states and high tax levels, Nordic economies are also home to large public sectors, strong job protections, and labor markets governed by centralized union contracts … The governments of Norway and Finland own financial assets equal to 330 percent and 130 percent of each country’s respective GDP. In the US, the same figure is just 26 percent.


… State-owned enterprises (SOEs), defined as commercial enterprises in which the state has a controlling stake or large minority stake, are also far more prevalent in the Nordic countries. In 2012, the value of Norwegian SOEs was equal to 87.9 percent of the country’s GDP. For Finland, that figure was 52.3 percent. In the US, it was not even 1 percent.


… In Norway, the state manages direct ownership of 70 companies. The businesses include the real estate company Entra; the country’s largest financial services group DNB; the 30,000-employee mobile telecommunications company Telenor; and the famous state-owned oil company Statoil.

(Denmark is also home to many state-owned enterprises, albeit fewer than some of its neighbors.)

So: The economic success of the Nordic countries is actually a testament to the vitality of free-market capitalism — because free-market capitalism is (apparently) totally compatible with giant welfare states, nearly universal private-sector unionization, and state-owned oil, telecoms, and financial services companies.

All this leaves us with two possible conclusions. Either the right’s argument against Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s brand of “democratic socialism” (which presently involves far less state ownership and worker control than Nordic social democracy) is a purely semantic one — or else, the collectivists have already taken the Cato Institute captive.

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#14947818
> Perhaps Denmark’s welfare state isn’t the source of its strong economic growth.

Well .. a good welfare state means that incomes are more equal. More euality in incomes means more consumption. More consumption means more demand. More demand means more jobs. More jobs means ... better economy. So ... yeah. Thats actually very obvious.

As far as I know, the idea that better income equality leads to better economy isnt even challenged by any important liberal economist.

If you dont believe that, well ... theres many more examples for this than just Denmark. Any country with a good social state benefits from it economically, too.

Than again the economic system we have right now was never proposed by any important economist, liberal or otherwise. Even Monetarism as introduced by Milton Friedman, which by the way was tried in practice and failed drastically to fulfill most of its promises (such as having hardly any unemployment), still wasnt as extreme as what we have now. We are back to 19. century style liberalism. Monopolys ? Whats wrong with monopolys ? Has anyone told you about how monopolys are bad, recently ? I cant remember any such instance. Heck it can be argued we are back to mediveal merkantilism, with the completely idiotic austerity politics so many countries are doing now.
#14947822
The Nordic model is a heavy keynesian model it isn't socialism. It's paternalistic capitalism. I suppose theoretically it might be more vulnerable to becoming a communist hellscape, because a lot of important economic eggs are in one basket, if somehow a communist party gains power there but that is virtually impossible to happen since the Nordic model is also democratic and commies stink at elections.

-----

To put it differently the Nordic model is just family economics pushed to the national scale. Family members look after each other and the strongest is expected to do the most looking after and the weakest the least. Anyone that had a relatively functional family background shouldn't really have trouble believing family economics is necessarily bad if done on a larger scale. But what if your "Dad" is the cannibalistic serial killer Fred West? Family economics doesn't look so good then now does it? Suddenly having your education and healthcare de-politicised and up to your own choice seems really important. Living in the DPRK or the USSR is like have Fred West for your Dad. Living in the Nordic countries is like having some mushy nice workaday guy for a Dad. It's a completely different experience.

Another thing to note family economics requires a pretty solid common bond and common culture to work. The nordic countries have smallish and pretty homogenous populations (excepting Sweden in latter times but Sweden is in melt-down now). It is very dubious that tight familial economics can work on the national scale in larger, more diverse societies. What will work in Denmark will not necessarily work in the US except on a very local scale.
#14954033
Err ... "Commies" dont stink at elections at all. They simply get massive opposition from the rich. And even if a "commie" manages to democratically gain power, like for example Salvador Allende in Chile 1970, they still get assassinated, replaced by a dictatorship etc.

Just like you yourself point out in your signature.

Its btw just like any other alternative model of economics that challenges the capitalist way of exploiting the masses.

For example: free money a la Silvio Gesell ? Worked like a charm every. single. time. it was tried in history. Worked like a charm for centuries in medieval times.

But its against the interest of the rich, so it was always replaced in the end by policial action, but not because it wouldnt have worked.
#14954035
@SolarCross got what most prefer to ignore. A homogeneous community can make any system work because of their shared values. Political/economic differences are exaggerated in their importance. They mean little to a functioning society.
#14954450
As far as I can tell, most lefties, especially in English speaking countries, think of the Nordic countries as socialist too. It's my impression at least that when they express support for socialism they are thinking of having something along the lines of the Scandinavian system. They should pay attention to what they think they will be getting as opposed to what the people they vote for have in mind.

Sweden actually stopped short of making the transition to socialism, as proposed by some Swedish socialists, some time ago and reversed course, with the other Scandinavian countries never coming as close (to my knowledge).
#14954495
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:As far as I can tell, most lefties, especially in English speaking countries, think of the Nordic countries as socialist too. It's my impression at least that when they express support for socialism they are thinking of having something along the lines of the Scandinavian system.


Most people do confuse social democracy with socialism but that's not really relevant. The fact is they're heavily socialized mixed economies. Most people confuse socialism with planned economies and authoritarian states but there's also libertarian market socialism and I think that would likely be even more successful than social democracy.

Sweden actually stopped short of making the transition to socialism, as proposed by some Swedish socialists, some time ago and reversed course, with the other Scandinavian countries never coming as close (to my knowledge).


They're the most socialized societies in the world and they're extremely happy and prosperous. The only real problems they have is the retarded pc multiculturalism and the batshit insane immigration policies. Other than that they work like a mug.
#14954769
Sivad wrote:Most people do confuse social democracy with socialism but that's not really relevant. The fact is they're heavily socialized mixed economies. Most people confuse socialism with planned economies and authoritarian states but there's also libertarian market socialism and I think that would likely be even more successful than social democracy.

I think it was relevant because the thread title mentions confusion about the economic model of Nordic countries. It's a different kind of confusion, sure, but probably more widespread.


Sivad wrote:They're the most socialized societies in the world and they're extremely happy and prosperous. The only real problems they have is the retarded pc multiculturalism and the batshit insane immigration policies. Other than that they work like a mug.

By what measure are they the most socialised countries in the world? I thought the central criterion is the exploitation of labour by capitalists. As I said in my previous post, Sweden stopped short of going there in the 70s/80s. It has been trending in the opposite direction since then and specifically labour market flexibility is much higher in the north than, say, in the south of Europe.

I have my own confusion about how people view Northern European economic models as a binary choice between capitalism and socialism, as they seem to have a strong corporatist flavour as well. If you take this into account, then pretty much the only "socialist" component is their large welfare states. I might be wrong, but it's my impression that it's this welfare state, and the reduced income inequality that comes with it, that your average person in English speaking countries wants when they say they want socialism.
#14954775
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:I think it was relevant because the thread title mentions confusion about the economic model of Nordic countries. It's a different kind of confusion, sure, but probably more widespread.


Conservatives aren't really confused, they're just full of shit. They're only confused about which line of bullshit to go with in their brainwashing campaign.

By what measure are they the most socialised countries in the world? I thought the central criterion is the exploitation of labour by capitalists.


By every measure, they're the least exploited working class on earth.

As I said in my previous post, Sweden stopped short of going there in the 70s/80s. It has been trending in the opposite direction since then and specifically labour market flexibility is much higher in the north than, say, in the south of Europe.


Union membership is up around 70%, wages are unparalleled, and the robust welfare state(flexicurity) more than balances any instability in the labor market.

I have my own confusion about how people view Northern European economic models as a binary choice between capitalism and socialism, as they seem to have a strong corporatist flavour as well. If you take this into account, then pretty much the only "socialist" component is their large welfare states.


It's not just the welfare state, it's unionization, economic democracy, and greater political enfranchisement.

I might be wrong, but it's my impression that it's this welfare state, and the reduced income inequality that comes with it, that your average person in English speaking countries wants when they say they want socialism.


They also want control of their government. They want the corporations and the billionaires out of politics. Democracy is just as essential to socialism as public ownership of the means of production, without democracy and individual sovereignty you just got gulag collectivism.
#14955050
Sivad wrote:Conservatives aren't really confused, they're just full of shit. They're only confused about which line of bullshit to go with in their brainwashing campaign.

You give them too much credit. Plenty of people on both sides are confused.

Sivad wrote:By every measure, they're the least exploited working class on earth.

Union membership is up around 70%, wages are unparalleled, and the robust welfare state(flexicurity) more than balances any instability in the labor market.

How are they less exploited than in many other Western European countries? Union membership is only a good measure in countries where collective bargaining frameworks aren't regulated by law (in which case it doesn't matter whether an employee is a union member or not, as negotiation results apply to all of them). As mentioned in my previous post, much of this can be attributed to the corporatist model whereby negotiations usually take place at a national/industry level. If you are interested, you can compare countries on this site with respect to all aspects of worker representation in Europe.

Sivad wrote:It's not just the welfare state, it's unionization, economic democracy, and greater political enfranchisement.

They also want control of their government. They want the corporations and the billionaires out of politics. Democracy is just as essential to socialism as public ownership of the means of production, without democracy and individual sovereignty you just got gulag collectivism.

That's sounds like your own position, with a quite specific and narrow definition of socialism, rather than what I'm hearing generally from lefties, including self-identified socialists. There are plenty who have until recently pointed to Venezuela as a model for instance and even on this site you have debated centre-left people on Cuba. Let's say I'm not entirely convinced.
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