[SolarCross]

I couldn't find the SJW thread so I had to start a new thread for this. I didn't mind SJW's funny stuff because it is hilarious in a sad sort of way and it didn't affect me personally but if they manage to wreck linux though that is another matter completely, I use linux, and linux runs the whole bloody internet too!

[blackjack21]

Yeah. A bunch of snowflakes can't handle Linus flaming them for committing shitty code, etc. Linux kernel development is definitely not a place for snowflakes, as they more than likely have nothing to contribute and they cannot handle any pressure of negative feedback. It's pretty much hardcore folks only.

[Rancid]

I didn't realize Linux contributors own the copyright to the code they contribute.

[fuser]

Why you guys are on PoFo, have you seen the rules? God damn, PoFo was SJW before SJW was a thing, what a hipster website.

Meanwhile :

This is my reality. I am not an emotionally empathetic kind of person
and that probably doesn't come as a big surprise to anybody. Least of
all me. The fact that I then misread people and don't realize (for
years) how badly I've judged a situation and contributed to an
unprofessional environment is not good.

This week people in our community confronted me about my lifetime of
not understanding emotions. My flippant attacks in emails have been
both unprofessional and uncalled for. Especially at times when I made
it personal. In my quest for a better patch, this made sense to me.
I know now this was not OK and I am truly sorry.

The above is basically a long-winded way to get to the somewhat
painful personal admission that hey, I need to change some of my
behavior, and I want to apologize to the people that my personal
behavior hurt and possibly drove away from kernel development
entirely.

I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to
understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately.

Put another way: When asked at conferences, I occasionally talk about
how the pain-points in kernel development have generally not been
about the _technical_ issues, but about the inflection points where
development flow and behavior changed.

Good on him and yeah I am a linux user too and I don't think I have to prove that, I have talked it plenty of times.

[Rancid]

Good on him and yeah I am a linux user too and I don't think I have to prove that, I have talked it plenty of times.

Right, but should this mean he supports a CoC that can kick people out of the community? More over, with the added risk that these contributors hold the copyrights to their contributions?

[fuser]

This is just counterfactual at this moment, there is a lot of reason a person can leave or get kicked even the ones with copyrights. This is just fearmongering to say that people will be kicked right and left after this.

But there always had been an actual problem where developers will shy away from contributing to projects because of the fear of reprisal that can come in any form. Now of course people can pretend to be macho and say they are just snowflakes and should man the fuck up but telling people to be nice to each other isn't asking much, its ridiculous to see this tiny non consequential thing being blown out of proportion.

[SolarCross]

Good on him and yeah I am a linux user too and I don't think I have to prove that, I have talked it plenty of times.

I heard that letter was not written by Linus... Faking text is easy.

In his own words:

[fuser]

I am not in a mood of conspiracy theories right now.

[SolarCross]

----------

Maybe the solution will be to fork linux? The SJWs can have their own kernal then and the "old guard" can continue running the real linux (please).

[blackjack21]

I wish they would fork Linux and leave us alone. They can have their own distribution. I would suggest calling it "snowflake."

[Rich]

Well I'm an ALW, an Apache Licence Warrior, but I use Linux despite the awful GPL as its better than using Mac or Windows.

Unfortunately I think Linus has lost and the Cultural Marxists are going to run riot over Kernel development as they have most places. The wonders of our modern world were largely created by White Gentile men, Jewish men and Asian men, but of course the cultural Marxist parasites want to steal our work.

[SolarCross]

Know thy enemy..

[Rancid]

This is just counterfactual at this moment...

Fair enough, but my question still stands. Let me phrase this differently.

How can we make people not be assholes to each other?

And yes, I agree, there are a lot of assholes with big egos on various open source projects. I have to interact with some of them occasionally. Though I mostly work with user space projects.

[SolarCross]

Well I'm an ALW, an Apache Licence Warrior, but I use Linux despite the awful GPL as its better than using Mac or Windows.

Unfortunately I think Linus has lost and the Cultural Marxists are going to run riot over Kernel development as they have most places. The wonders of our modern world were largely created by White Gentile men, Jewish men and Asian men, but of course the cultural Marxist parasites want to steal our work.

But the old guard are threatening to pull their copyrights so this isn't over. I just don't see the old guard including Linus caving. They let this creep up on them because they didn't think there was anything in it but now that they are "woke" to it they'll turn it around. They have the skillz and the copyright, it can't be taken from them because they are linux. What will happen in the fullness of time is that linux will get forked into an SJW version which doesn't work and that nobody uses and the old guard linux which does work and that everybody uses. The solution is to fork.

[Rancid]

But the old guard are threatening to pull their copyrights so this isn't over. I just don't see the old guard including Linus caving. They let this creep up on them because they didn't think there was anything in it but now that they are "woke" to it they'll turn it around. They have the skillz and the copyright, it can't be taken from them because they are linux. What will happen in the fullness of time is that linux will get forked into an SJW version which doesn't work and that nobody uses and the old guard linux which does work and that everybody uses. The solution is to fork.

Possibly. I feel like two things are getting confounded here.

- The first that many of the contributors and power holders in the Linux community are assholes with big egos. This is very true, and a documented fact.
- The tech industry is predominately white straight (I'm not sure how true that is, because I look down my cube isle and I only see 2 white people out of 12). Thus, this breeds a culture that isn't inclusive, and can be sexist, anti-gay, etc. etc.

It seems like people are just mixing the above two points together. I see them has two separate issues.

[SolarCross]

Possibly. I feel like two things are getting confounded here.

- The first that many of the contributors and power holders in the Linux community are assholes with big egos. This is very true, and a documented fact.
- The tech industry is predominately white straight (I'm not sure how true that is, because I look down my cube isle and I only see 2 white people out of 12). Thus, this breeds a culture that isn't inclusive, and can be sexist, anti-gay, etc. etc.

It seems like people are just mixing the above two points together. I see them has two separate issues.

Yeah they are two very different issues.

On the first, you can expect talented and highly skilled people to very often be arseholes with big egos. That's true of poets, writers and movie directors so no one should be surprised if it also applied to programmers and engineers. It may be even worse than average with open source developers because most of them don't really get paid anything for what they do so to some extent the world owes them a debt which can never be repaid. If you aren't doing it for the money, you are almost certainly doing it for the kudos.

The answer to this is just to roll with it.

------------

On the second, more than most fields of human endeavour there are no barriers to non-white, non-straight, non-male people in IT. Especially for open source programmers who mostly contribute by uploading code to github, which can be done completely anonymously. There is no need at all for a contributor to reveal anything about the demographic categories they like to associate themselves with unless waving that in people's faces is something they get off on.

&

The only demographic that might actually have a cause to resent the way the demographics shake out in the IT biz are women because women make up half the population so you might expect all else being equal that half the programmers would be women. Mostly they are not interested though so that is why you don't see them queuing up to be programmers.

[Rich]

Know thy enemy..

Looks like the stereotypical programmer to me, a White male into fantasy role-playing. Some want to be Medieval warriors, some want to be Elves, some want to be women.

[Rancid]

It may be even worse than average with open source developers because most of them don't really get paid anything for what they do so to some extent the world owes them a debt which can never be repaid. If you aren't doing it for the money, you are almost certainly doing it for the kudos.

Actually, most of the big contributors are paid very well. They tend to work for all the big companies. Microsoft (yes, Microsoft is a big contributor to Linux), Red Hat, Ubuntu, Cisco, Cloud Flare, Google, Facebook, etc. etc. etc. There are independent developers that contribute for the fun and love of it, but the movers and shakers are usually paid.

My company has a team of full timers dedicated to contributing to the Linux Kernel.

On the second, more than most fields of human endeavour there are no barriers to non-white, non-straight, non-male people in IT. Especially for open source programmers who mostly contribute by uploading code to github, which can be done completely anonymously. There is no need at all for a contributor to reveal anything about the demographic categories they like to associate themselves with unless waving that in people's faces is something they get off on.

&

The only demographic that might actually have a cause to resent the way the demographics shake out in the IT biz are women because women make up half the population so you might expect all else being equal that half the programmers would be women. Mostly they are not interested though so that is why you don't see them queuing up to be programmers.

Those are valid points.

I do believe the tech industry should be accessible to all, and be inclusive, etc. etc. However, it's more effective to create the change earlier in the pipeline. This is something you touched on with women in STEM. That is, let's get more minorities, women, LGBT, etc. etc. into STEM degrees. Not having this makes the whole damn thing Dead on Arrival.

All of my engineering courses always only had 1-2 women at best. That's the part of the problem that needs to be taken care of first. If you graduate more women and minority engineers, the White CIS non-inclusive culture will naturally fizzle away.

I have to say though, I look at my company, and I just don't see it dominated by whites. Males, yes, but not white males.

[SolarCross]

Those are valid points.

I do believe the tech industry should be accessible to all, and be inclusive, etc. etc. However, it's more effective to create the change earlier in the pipeline. This is something you touched on with women in STEM. That is, let's get more minorities, women, LGBT, etc. etc. into STEM degrees. Not having this makes the whole damn thing Dead on Arrival.

All of my engineering courses always only had 1-2 women at best. That's the part of the problem that needs to be taken care of first. If you graduate more women and minority engineers, the White CIS non-inclusive culture will naturally fizzle away.

I have to say though, I look at my company, and I just don't see it dominated by whites. Males, yes, but not white males.

If the fat paychecks available to skilled IT people isn't enough to tempt women into the trade then what else can be done and more to the point why even bother? For example nursing is the mirror image of IT as far as gender asymetry goes. On any given nursing course you have one or two blokes among hundreds of women. Why aren't we saying we need to push more men into nursing? Why aren't we accusing women of not letting men be nurses too? We should value a free society and in a free society we let people pursue their own interests as far as they are able rather than push them around trying to fill arbitrary quotas.

[Truth To Power]

The only demographic that might actually have a cause to resent the way the demographics shake out in the IT biz are women because women make up half the population so you might expect all else being equal that half the programmers would be women.

All else ain't equal, and neither are men and women. Until these fools are lobbying for equal numbers of men and women in prison, they need to STFU about the unequal numbers of men and women anywhere else.