[Pants-of-dog]

@Sivad

Then we simply do not allow corporations to work in pharma. The whole industry gets nationalised. No more big pharma.

You see, your criticism is not about vaccines, but about corporate manipulation of evidence in order to satisfy the profit demands of capitalism. Remove capitalism from the equation and your criticism no longer applies.

[Sivad]

Then we simply do not allow corporations to work in pharma. The whole industry gets nationalised. No more big pharma.

That would be a step in the right direction but it still wouldn't be enough by half. Leave the state in charge of it and we'll just have state run big pharma. To really solve the problem you'd have to democratize, decentralize, and anarchize the whole industry.

You see, your criticism is not about vaccines, but about corporate manipulation of evidence in order to satisfy the profit demands of capitalism.

the criticism pertains to regulation and certification of vaccines as much it does any other drug(actually more so because vaccines have been indemnified and forced on the public). The same corrupt regulatory authorities and criminal big pharma corps that gave us vioxx are in charge of developing, manufacturing, and certifying the vaccines that are being injected into our children. Anyone who is comfortable with that needs to have their head examined.

[Pants-of-dog]

That would be a step in the right direction but it still wouldn't be enough by half. Leave the state in charge of it and we'll just have state run big pharma. To really solve the problem you'd have to democratize, decentralize, and anarchize the whole industry.



the criticism pertains to regulation and certification of vaccines as much it does any other drug(actually more so because vaccines have been indemnified and forced on the public). The same corrupt regulatory authorities and criminal big pharma corps that gave us vioxx are in charge of developing, manufacturing, and certifying the vaccines that are being injected into our children. Anyone who is comfortable with that needs to have their head examined.

The recent Ebola vaccine was made pretty much without corporate help.

By your logic, that must mean that the state must have evilly evilled their evil when they did.

Did they? Do you have evidence?

[ness31]

evilly evilled their evil Thats as good as biglyest I tell you ...

[Sivad]

the parents of yet another child with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) were awarded a lump sum of more than $810,000 (plus an estimated $30-40,000 per year for autism services and care) in compensation by the Court, which ruled that the measels-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine had caused acute brain damage that led to his autism spectrum disorder.

The family of 10-year-old Bailey Banks won their case quietly and without fanfare in June of 2007, but the ruling has only now come to public attention. In the remarkably clear and eloquent decision, Special Master Richard Abell ruled that the Banks had successfully demonstrated that “the MMR vaccine at issue actually caused the conditions from which Bailey suffered and continues to suffer.”

Bailey’s diagnosis is Pervasive Developmental Disorder — Not Otherwise Specified (PDD-NOS) which has been recognized as an autism spectrum disorder by CDC, HRSA and the other federal health agencies since at least the 1990s.

In his conclusion, Special Master Abell ruled that Petitioners had proven that the MMR had directly caused a brain inflammation illness called acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (ADEM) which, in turn, had caused the autism spectrum disorder PDD-NOS in the child:

The Court found that Bailey’s ADEM was both caused-in-fact and proximately caused by his vaccination. It is well-understood that the vaccination at issue can cause ADEM, and the Court found, based upon a full reading and hearing of the pertinent facts in this case, that it did actually cause the ADEM. Furthermore, Bailey’s ADEM was severe enough to cause lasting, residual damage, and retarded his developmental progress, which fits under the generalized heading of Pervasive Developmental Delay, or PDD [an autism spectrum disorder]. The Court found that Bailey would not have suffered this delay but for the administration of the MMR vaccine, and that this chain of causation was... a proximate sequence of cause and effect leading inexorably from vaccination to Pervasive Developmental Delay.

The Bailey decision is not an isolated ruling. We now know of at least two other successful ADEM cases argued in Vaccine Court. More significantly, an explosive investigation by CBS News has found that since 1988, the vaccine court has awarded money judgments, often in the millions of dollars, to thirteen hundred and twenty two families whose children suffered brain damage from vaccines. In many of these cases, the government paid out awards following a judicial finding that vaccine injury lead to the child’s autism spectrum disorder. In each of these cases, the plaintiffs’ attorneys made the same tactical decision made by Bailey Bank’s lawyer, electing to opt out of the highly charged Omnibus Autism Proceedings and argue their autism cases in the regular vaccine court. In many other successful cases, attorneys elected to steer clear of the hot button autism issue altogether and seek recovery instead for the underlying brain damage that caused their client’s autism.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/vaccine- ... a_b_169673

[Pants-of-dog]

@Sivad

Quote the text in the court ruling that says the kid had autism.

Here is a link to the court ruling:
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/BANKS_CASE.pdf

Spoiler: Sivad will not quote it, because the court did not find he had autism.

[Sivad]

the court did not find he had autism.

Yeah it did. The court found that the vaccine caused Pervasive Developmental Disorder which is classified as an autism spectrum disorder by the Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders version 5 (DSM-5).

The diagnostic category pervasive developmental disorders (PDD), as opposed to specific developmental disorders (SDD), is a group of five disorders characterized by delays in the development of multiple basic functions including socialization and communication. The pervasive developmental disorders are autism, Asperger syndrome, pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS, i.e. all autism spectrum disorders), Childhood disintegrative disorder (CDD) and Rett syndrome.[1]

The first four of these disorders are commonly called the autism spectrum disorders; the last disorder is much rarer, and is sometimes placed in the autism spectrum and sometimes not.


In 2013, the Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders version 5 (DSM-5) replaced the previous subgroups of autistic disorder, Asperger syndrome, pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS), and childhood disintegrative disorder with the single term "autism spectrum disorder".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pervasi ... l_disorder

Spoiler: Sivad will not quote it

THE COURT’S CONCLUSIONS:

3. Bailey’s ADEM was caused-in-fact and proximately caused by his vaccination. It is well-
understood that the vaccination at issue can cause ADEM, and the Court finds, on the record filed
herein, that it did actually cause the ADEM.

4. Bailey’s ADEM was severe enough to cause lasting, residual damage, and retarded his
developmental progress, which fits under the generalized heading of Pervasive Developmental
Delay, or PDD. Additionally, this chain of causation was not too remote, but was rather a proximate
sequence of cause and effect leading inexorably from vaccination to Pervasive Developmental Delay.

[late]

I had polio when I was a kid. I've had pneumonia about 5 times.

Frankly, your world would suck without vaccines. Assuming you were even alive.

This thread has generated a lot of heat, but not much in the way of science.

But I do wonder if Putin's little trolls have been using vaccines to divide us.

[Pants-of-dog]

So, note that the court found that the kid had “pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified“ (PDD-NOS) and not autism.

It is often called an autism spectrum disorder, but tomatoes are often called vegetables.

[ness31]

um, that splitting hairs a bit don’t you think PoD?

[late]

um, that splitting hairs a bit don’t you think PoD?

Maybe.

Science and the law have a troubled relationship. Science doesn't care how long it takes, judges do.

Science always has a large undetermined category. Which makes what PoD was saying reasonable if you haven't nailed it down, and we have not nailed it down.

[Pants-of-dog]

um, that splitting hairs a bit don’t you think PoD?

I think it is important to clarify that one person once had an adverse reaction that indirectly led to a disorder that is similar to autism, and that this is not the same as support for the claim that vaccines cause autism.

Do you agree that the two claims are different?

[ness31]

Yes, they are different. But Jesus Christ, I’m fairly sure that goes to the the very heart of the controversy. Nobody wants their kid to be the one that has the adverse reaction

The push back against the anti-vaxxers didn’t help either.

I will always maintain my stance that vaccines should not be compulsory. A parent has to be psychologically confident that they are doing the right thing for their child and their family. By stripping parents of this fundamental right to choose, we have allowed the unscrupulous to exploit our weakness.

I’m ashamed at how far we let our basic liberal values slide.

[Sivad]

I think it is important to clarify that one person once had an adverse reaction that indirectly led to a disorder that is similar to autism, and that this is not the same as support for the claim that vaccines cause autism.

So a vaccine causing autism isn't evidence for vaccines causing autism?

Do you agree that the two claims are different?

You can say vaccines rarely cause autism, but since they do sometimes cause autism you can't say vaccines don't cause autism.

The problem is we just don't know the rate at which vaccines cause autism because the VAERS surveillance system is shit, the epidemiology is grossly underpowered, the IOM finds that none of the vaccines on the schedule have been adequately studied, and the public is prohibited from litigating the issue in open court.

All we can say for sure is that courts, regulators, scientists, etc have found that vaccines can cause autism.

[Donna]

The push back against the anti-vaxxers didn’t help either.

For the most part society left them alone until measles started breaking out again some years ago. As far as I'm concerned they brought it on themselves by putting the community at risk.

[Pants-of-dog]

So a vaccine causing autism isn't evidence for vaccines causing autism?

No.

Evidence that one vaccine caused something that in turn caused something else that some people call autism is not evidence that vaccines in general cause autism.

You can say vaccines rarely cause autism, but since they do sometimes cause autism you can't say vaccines don't cause autism.

Since you have not provided even a single example of a vaccine causing autism, this is a weird and incorrect thing to say.

The problem is we just don't know the rate at which vaccines cause autism because the VAERS surveillance system is shit, the epidemiology is grossly underpowered, the IOM finds that none of the vaccines on the schedule have been adequately studied, and the public is prohibited from litigating the issue in open court.

All we can say for sure is that courts, regulators, scientists, etc have found that vaccines can cause autism.

I doubt you will provide evidence for any of these claims.

[ness31]

Donna, there is a bigger picture here regarding vaccines if you cared to look and it has nothing to do with autism or Bill Gates or any of that rubbish. Not everyone’s brain is wired for this kind of, um, perspective? You need a good memory and a nack for patterns. But just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

I know that sounds vague and silly, but I can’t explain it any better..

[Sivad]

After the #CDC refused to respond to ICAN’s FOIA for studies which support the organizations claim ‘vaccines do not cause autism’ for vaccines given to your baby in the first six months of life, ICAN sued the CDC, demanding they provide the science. What they sent in response should shock every parent to their core.

[Donna]

Lol, once again Sibad is unable to use his own words. "Please watch this YouTube video by someone much smarter than I am"

[Pants-of-dog]

@Sivad’s Youtube video is a bait and switch. It seems to claim one th8ng, while the facts show another.

It says that ICAN (some anti-vaxxer group) won a lawsuit showing that the CDC has no science to support the claim that vaccines do not cause autism.

The reality is something different:

1. ICAN did not win. There was a settlement.

2. FOIA lawsuits do not rule on whether a claim is true. They are about whether or not the government provided the information. In this case, the court was asked whether or not the CDC provided the documents. The case was settled when the CDC provided the studies in court.

In that sense, ICAN “won” because the CDC had to provide the documents right there and then, but it disproves the claim that ICAN made about the CDC having no science to back it up.