[Godstud]

@Verv Yes, the French were HORRIBLE during their colonization in SE Asia. The Vietnamese and Laos people despised them. They were terrible at exploiting them, and I can see why Qatzelok wouldn't like this, since he regularly demonizes Anglophone colonization. His memory doesn't extend to French atrocities and exploitation.

[Verv]

It is a weird argument to say that going to war in order to make money is morally similar to avoiding war to make money because both involve making money.

It is like a weird perversion of the fact that we can make money even without going to war.

In that respect, it is like the implied argument in this thread: that Thunberg’s movement is just as bad as the fossil fuel industry’s lying and deception because it is somehow associated with money too.

It's actually very natural to question the nobility of people's motivations.

People do it all the time.

In fact, when you see some cult like Scientology out on the front lines doing charity, and they themselves promoting it, you implicitly understand that their primary goal is expanding as a cult, and not in helping others.

Do you think Jacques Chirac was so incredibly noble?

This has given me the awesome opportunity to revisit this:

In attempting to understand France's behavior over the issue of war with Iraq, there is little question but that strategic, economic and geopolitical considerations are dominant drivers. However, in order to understand the details of French behavior, it is also important to understand a not really unknown but oddly neglected aspect of French policy: the personal relationship between French President Jacques Chirac and Saddam Hussein. The relationship dates back to late 1974, when then-French Premier Chirac traveled to Baghdad and met the No. 2 man in the Iraqi government, Vice President Saddam Hussein. During that visit, Chirac and Hussein conducted negotiations on a range of issues, the most important of these being Iraq's purchase of nuclear reactors. In September 1975, Hussein traveled to Paris, where Chirac personally gave him a tour of a French nuclear plant. During that visit, Chirac said, "Iraq is in the process of beginning a coherent nuclear program and France wants to associate herself with that effort in the field of reactors." France sold two reactors to Iraq, with the agreement signed during Hussein's visit. The Iraqis purchased a 70-megawatt reactor, along with six charges of 26 points of uranium enriched to 93 percent — in other words, enough weapons-grade uranium to produce three to four nuclear devices. Baghdad also purchased a one-megawatt research reactor, and France agreed to train 600 Iraqi nuclear technicians and scientists — the core of Iraq's nuclear capability today. Other dimensions of the relationship were decided on during this visit and implemented in the months afterward. France agreed to sell Iraq $1.5 billion worth of weapons — including the integrated air defense system that was destroyed by the United States in 1991, about 60 Mirage F1 fighter planes, surface-to-air missiles and advanced electronics. The Iraqis, for their part, agreed to sell France $70 million worth of oil. During this period, Chirac and Hussein formed what Chirac called a close personal relationship. As the New York Times put it in a 1986 report about Chirac's attempt to return to the premiership, the French official "has said many times that he is a personal friend of Saddam Hussein of Iraq." In 1987, the Manchester Guardian Weekly quoted Chirac as saying that he was "truly fascinated by Saddam Hussein since 1974."

Stratfor

His nickname for a while was Jacques Iraq.

Whether or not France's interests in Iraq are guiding its foreign policy, the country has a clear commercial interest in the maintenance of Saddam Hussein's regime. France's economic ties with Iraq have been close and lucrative in the past. They are profitable at present despite the embargo and, should Saddam survive the current crisis, they would become much more so in the future.

Warm French relations with the current Iraqi regime go back a long way. In September 1975, the French prime minister played host to the vice-president of the Revolution Command Council of Iraq. The first, Jacques Chirac, described the second, Saddam Hussein, as a personal friend, showed him around a French nuclear reactor and invited him to his home for the weekend. It was about this time that the prime minister was nicknamed Jacques Iraq.

The New York Times

[Pants-of-dog]

It's actually very natural to question the nobility of people's motivations.

People do it all the time.

In fact, when you see some cult like Scientology out on the front lines doing charity, and they themselves promoting it, you implicitly understand that their primary goal is expanding as a cult, and not in helping others.

Do you think Jacques Chirac was so incredibly noble?

Yes, it is natural, and people do it all the time.

That does not mean that it makes sense or helps us in anyway.

Forgetting to brush your teeth is also natural and common but that does not mean it is a good idea.

It still makes no sense to think avoiding war is the same as getting into a war, or fighting climate change is the same as polluting, just because you can make money at both.

This has given me the awesome opportunity to revisit this:

Stratfor

His nickname for a while was Jacques Iraq.

The New York Times

None of this is relevant to Greta Thunberg.

By the way, the US was instrumental in putting Saddam Hussein into power in the first place.

[Verv]

Oh, OK, thanks for your input. I appreciated the exchange and the opportunity to talk about Pres. Jacques Chirac. Been a long time since I heard that name.

[Hindsite]

Oh, OK, thanks for your input. I appreciated the exchange and the opportunity to talk about Pres. Jacques Chirac. Been a long time since I heard that name.

Ex-French President Jacques Chirac was ‘bribed’ by Saddam Hussein
September 29, 2019

Jacques Chirac, the former French president who died last week at age 86, was a staunch opponent of the US-led war in Iraq — but that’s because he was secretly on Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein’s payroll, a new report reveals.

Chirac was bribed millions to publicly oppose the war, Sir Richard Dearlove, who headed Britain’s MI6 spy agency at the time, told the Daily Mail.

Intelligence agencies with both the UK and the US were on to the payoffs, Dearlove said.

“There were strong indications in the US and UK [intelligence services],” he said, that Chirac pocketed some $6 million from the Iraqi tyrant, money the French leader used for his presidential elections in 1995 and 2002.

https://nypost.com/2019/09/29/ex-french ... in-report/

The purity of Greta Thunberg and her young anti-BP comrades is delusional
3 OCTOBER 2019

There are few sensations more discomfiting to a woolly centrist than agreeing with Vladimir Putin. “I don’t share the common excitement about the speech by Greta Thunberg,” sniffed the Russian president this week. “No one has explained to Greta that the modern world is complex and diverse. People in Africa or in many Asian countries want to live at the same wealth level as in Sweden. Go and explain to developing countries why they should continue living in poverty.”

What a state of affairs this is, when a constitutional despot is the only person brave enough to speak truth to a frowning teenager.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/1 ... elusional/

[Godstud]

Many countries opposed the US invading Iraq.... Including Americans.

The months leading up to the war saw protests across the United States, the largest of which, held on February 15, 2003 involved about 300,000 to 400,000 protesters in New York City, with smaller numbers protesting in Seattle, San Francisco, Chicago, and other cities.

Also:

African Union[82]
Arab League (except Kuwait)[83]
Algeria
Bahrain
Comoros
Djibouti
Egypt
Iraq
Jordan
Lebanon
Libya
Mauritania
Morocco
Oman
Palestine
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
Sudan
Syria
Tunisia
United Arab Emirates
Yemen
European Union
Austria[84]
Belgium[85]
France[86]
Germany[86]
Greece[87]
Slovenia
Sweden
Argentina[88]
Bangladesh
Belarus[89]
Brazil[90]
Canada[91]
Chile[92]
China[93]
Croatia
Cuba[94]
Dominica
Ecuador
India[95]
Iran[96]
Indonesia[97]
Liechtenstein
Malaysia[98]
Mexico[92]
New Zealand[99]
North Korea
Norway[100]
Pakistan[101]
Russia[86]
Switzerland
Turkey
Vatican City[102]
Venezuela[103]
Vietnam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppositio ... e_Iraq_War

Iraq must have had a pretty extensive payroll.

[Hindsite]

Many countries opposed the US invading Iraq.... Including Americans.

Iraq must have had a pretty extensive payroll.

Obviously, it was not all about payoffs.

[QatzelOk]

The vast majority of eco- warriors are indigenous people, many who have watched modern industry contaminate their food and water supplies.

Right wing leaders in "friendly" poor countries (like Columbia) typically kill hundreds of these people- many of whom are girls - every year.

As a white climate warrior, Greta is similar to what Elvis Presley was to all the black rock musicians who couldn't get their songs played on white radio.

[colliric]

As a white climate warrior, Greta is similar to what Elvis Presley was to all the black rock musicians who couldn't get their songs played on white radio.

Yeah but at least Elvis was a legend....

[QatzelOk]

Yeah but at least Elvis was a legend....

While most of the black musicians who actually invented rock and roll died in poverty ( though many outlived the drug-addled white legend).

Racism makes Elvis's celebrity a product of the worst impulses of capitalism.

The lack of famous indigenous climate protectors in white media is similar.

[Godstud]

@QatzelOk That's one way of looking at it. This is another.

The true root of the 'Elvis Was a Racist' line of thinking is a distinctly modern rejection of integration, one of the ideals of the civil rights movement that we've chosen to blissfully ignore. There is a belief, among both blacks and whites, that black music is for blacks and any white man playing is guilty of some terrible misappropriation, and that this misappropriation is an outgrowth of the horrible sins committed against blacks by whites throughout our nation's history. There's no reason to 'debunk' this argument, because it is transparently foolish and absolutely racist, on both sides. For blacks to attempt to lock one side out of the racial dialogue is counterproductive and reactionary, and for whites to believe that only blacks should play 'black music' is a PC'd-up version of the Stepin Fetchit/minstrel mentality, plain and simple.
https://www.elvis.com.au/presley/elvis-not-racist.shtml

Inspiration is not appropriation, either.

[colliric]

While most of the black musicians who actually invented rock and roll died in poverty ( though many outlived the drug-addled white legend).

Racism makes Elvis's celebrity a product of the worst impulses of capitalism.

The lack of famous indigenous climate protectors in white media is similar.

I don't disagree, but Elvis wasn't responsible for that. I doubt he even knew that was happening. The record labels and radio stations did that mostly. Anyway it did come to an end, especially towards the late 60s early 70s.

[Pants-of-dog]

https://nationalpost.com/news/national/ ... e-movement

‘It's time for action': Indigenous water activist Autumn Peltier to speak at UN forum

With youth-led climate strikes sprouting up across the globe, Peltier's mother said there are signs that adults are finally catching up.

She’s not old enough to get her learner’s permit, but Autumn Peltier has been a driving force in the fight to protect water in Canada’s Indigenous communities for years.

The teenage activist from Wiikwemkoong First Nation on Manitoulin Island in northern Ontario has been engaged in the issue since she first came across a boil-water advisory in a nearby Anishinaabe community when she was eight years old.

But Peltier said she’s had this connection since she was in the womb, where according to cultural teachings, one learns to love water as they love their mother. It traces back even further to her female ancestors, from whom she inherited her traditional role as a water carrier.

As she turns 15 on Friday, the same day students across Canada are expected to march in a massive strike intended to disrupt climate-change inaction, Peltier finds herself at the forefront of an environmental movement being led by youth like her and Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg.

This weekend, Peltier — the chief water commissioner for Anishinabek Nation, which advocates for 40 member First Nations in Ontario — will return to the United Nations to share her vision for a world in which everyone has access to clean water.

“I’m willing to do my best to represent Canada and the Indigenous people and have a strong voice for our future,” she said by phone from New York.

“I basically want to tell them about the importance of water from a cultural, spiritual level, and then try to tell them that it’s time for action.”

Peltier is set to address hundreds of international guests on Saturday at the Global Landscapes Forum, a platform on land use backed by UN Environment.

It’s her second time speaking at the UN headquarters in Manhattan, having urged the General Assembly to “warrior up” and take a stand for our planet last year.

[Rich]

Many countries opposed the US invading Iraq.... Including Americans.

That's a filthy Marxist lie. Public support rose from over 60% at the start of the war. By May 79% said the war was justified with or with out conclusive evidence of WMD. Since the start of the war tens if not hundreds of thousands of Sunni Arab Muslim terrorists have been butchered. This is a cause for celebration. The removal of Saddam was a glorious, noble and righteous act that brought majority rule and a rough and ready democracy to Iraq. It doesn't matter what the motivations of the invaders were.

Those that opposed the removal of Saddam should be ashamed of themselves. If Bush and Blair felt the need to lie in order to enact this righteous moral cause then it is no stain on their character, merely on the voters that forced Bush and Blair to use deception in order to do the right thing.

[QatzelOk]

I don't disagree, but Elvis wasn't responsible for that.

No one is blaming Elvis or Greta.

I am pointing out how media carefully eliminates non- white visionaries.

This is important because, when the élites of Colombia or Honduras kill off their own local protectors of ecology, Western leaders shake their hands firmly and thank them for "a positive investment climate."

[Pants-of-dog]

Canada is especially bad for being friendly with third world governments that stamp out indigenous protests, thereby allowing Canadian mining companies to make money and destroy the environment.

[maz]

The vast majority of eco- warriors are indigenous people, many who have watched modern industry contaminate their food and water supplies.

Right wing leaders in "friendly" poor countries (like Columbia) typically kill hundreds of these people- many of whom are girls - every year.

As a white climate warrior, Greta is similar to what Elvis Presley was to all the black rock musicians who couldn't get their songs played on white radio.

That's because Greta's astroturf grass root handlers don't care about pollution in Columbia and other non-white majority countries.

Sure they may use a few of minorities as props in her appearances in the US and Canada, but it doesn't appear that they are going to drag her to any slums of the third world to lecture them about the science of global warming.

She's just being used to attack majority white countries. Now she's out there calling for censorship on Facebook.

Greta Thunberg Issues Rallying Cry Against Facebook Over Lies, Death Threats

Teenage climate activist Greta Thunberg issued a rallying cry against Facebook, saying she may quit the social media platform due to its failure to curb the abuse that is frequently leveled against her.

The 16-year-old from Sweden wrote in a post on Wednesday that “the constant lies and conspiracy theories” that are spread on Facebook about her and others “of course result in hate, death threats and ultimately violence.”

“This could easily be stopped if Facebook wanted to,” Thunberg wrote, and the company’s failure leaves her, “like many others, questioning whether I should keep using Facebook.”

“I find the lack of taking responsibility very disturbing,” she added. “But I’m sure that if they are challenged and if enough of us demand change — then change will come.”

Thunberg’s comment was in response to a video of Reps. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.), Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.), Katie Porter (D-Calif.) and Ayanna Pressley (D-Mass.) challenging Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg in a House Financial Services Committee hearing on Wednesday.

The lawmakers confronted the billionaire tech boss over his company’s failure to adequately police hate speech, its refusal to ban false statements in advertising, and its new digital currency project Libra.

[Godstud]

Since the start of the war tens if not hundreds of thousands of Sunni Arab Muslim terrorists have been butchered. This is a cause for celebration. The removal of Saddam was a glorious, noble and righteous act that brought majority rule and a rough and ready democracy to Iraq. It doesn't matter what the motivations of the invaders were.

And this attitude is why America is hated throughout the world.

Almost a million people were killed in Iraq, and now Iraq is a disaster area.

You need to provide a source showing that tens or hundreds of thousands of terrorists were killed in Iraq, seeing as the terrorists came from Saudi Arabia.

Iraq today: Do not travel to Iraq due to terrorism, kidnapping, and armed conflict. U.S. citizens in Iraq are at high risk for violence and kidnapping. Numerous terrorist and insurgent groups are active in Iraq and regularly attack both Iraqi security forces and civilians.

A most lovely place after 10+ years of war made by USA. What brainwashed propaganda you have been fed, and lapped up.

Your big comeback is to say, "Marxist lies". What a joke.

[SpecialOlympian]

I want to murder a child for suggesting that we develop renewable energy sources at an accelerated rate. I am normal, and am not persuaded by propaganda or commercials.

The idea that we use non-polluting, non fossil fuels sources of energy enrages me because I am a rational person.

Also lmfao that Kaisemercam said they truly, genuinely cared about the budgets of third world nations after years of bitching about subsidizing them in any way. As if their empathy could extend to non-white people.

[QatzelOk]

Canada is especially bad for being friendly with third world governments that stamp out indigenous protests, thereby allowing Canadian mining companies to make money and destroy the environment.

Canada has sworn loyalty to the Lima Group of rightwing vassals, while Latin America seems to be moving towards a Leave-us-alone group.

Mining companies are our poison.