[Palmyrene]

It does when it's a difference in ability to control things that are important to others.

That's everyone. Everyone has an ability or skill (or can learn an ability or skill) that's valuable to others. What anarchism does is admit this is and create an economy based around our both shared and individual needs.

This does not indicate hierarchy. Hierarchy is nothing like you describe and difference isn't even capable of producing hierarchy.

[ingliz]

anarchism does not see it as hierarchy.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, eh?

An anarchy fit to service the status quo.

[That] must reproduce, everywhere in their actual organisation all the shortcomings of the prevailing system.

Wonderful!

[Palmyrene]

@ingliz

Please read my definition of hierarchy that I gave you.

Anarchy is far from the status quo.

[Hong Wu]

I thought there was a rule that you had to be 18 to use this forum? Is that gone now?

[ingliz]

Is that gone now?

Yes.

13 is the magic number, today.

[Truth To Power]

That's everyone. Everyone has an ability or skill (or can learn an ability or skill) that's valuable to others.

To different degrees. That's the point. Those who have more of such ability will be more valued, and therefore have higher status in the hierarchy.

What anarchism does is admit this is and create an economy based around our both shared and individual needs.

Needs don't address very much of what is important to people once the economy can satisfy their needs, so anarchism fails as an organizing principle for society above the hunter-gatherer and nomadic-herding levels.

This does not indicate hierarchy. Hierarchy is nothing like you describe and difference isn't even capable of producing hierarchy.

Again, your claims are just self-evidently false and absurd. If difference in ability to control what is important to others is not capable of producing hierarchy, what would be?

[Zionist Nationalist]

Guys dont waste time with him he is a troll

[Palmyrene]

To different degrees. That's the point. Those who have more of such ability will be more valued, and therefore have higher status in the hierarchy.

Like I said. Everyone has something that is valued and if they don't they can learn something that is valued. How much an ability is valued fluctuates based on the needs of the community.

These aren't roles however because they change and shift frequently and often value to community can't be accurately measured.

Needs don't address very much of what is important to people once the economy can satisfy their needs, so anarchism fails as an organizing principle for society above the hunter-gatherer and nomadic-herding levels.

People are always driven by needs and people have more than basic needs. Honestly the fact that you can't think of any purpose for yourself after achieving your basic needs is depressing.

People may want to get into art, engineering, build statues for a living, go into entertainment, do scientific research, etc.

How can you be so dull and boring that you personally can't imagine anything you would want after you get a consistent supply of food and water. Self-actualization is something everyone wants.

Again, your claims are just self-evidently false and absurd. If difference in ability to control what is important to others is not capable of producing hierarchy, what would be?

No you simply don't get it and make up stupid shit as arguments. "People won't do anything after achieving their basic needs" is a stupid fucking idea and tells us alot more about you than me.

Difference in ability to control what? Property? There is a limit to how much property you can occupy at a given moment. Resources? Good luck building a modern industrial building without anyone's help.

Your arguments are ridiculous. I'm actually concerned about your well-being by this point.

[Palmyrene]

Guys dont waste time with him he is a troll

You wish

[Palmyrene]

I thought there was a rule that you had to be 18 to use this forum? Is that gone now?

I will be 18 in 3 years so it's good.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Im just warning them if they wanna keep wasting time on some stranger who pretends to be a kid from Syria its their problem

[Tainari88]

All you need to participate in this forum @Hong Wu is a valid email address and to put in your age as a minimum 13 years old. It has been that way for a while.

[Palmyrene]

Im just warning them if they wanna keep wasting time on some stranger who pretends to be a kid from Syria its their problem

You got me. I'm an adult Israeli who has no empathy and gets my fragile masculinity shattered when a teenager makes fun of me on the internet.

Oh wait that's just you. My bad.

[ingliz]

who pretends to be a kid from Syria

It's obvious he is not a kid from Syria. That said, that doesn't mean he's not a kid.

wasting time

Although his arguments are incoherent and silly, and they can be swatted away with ease, his persistence at least gives everyone a chance to point out the holes in Mutualist theory.

So, in that, he/she is not completely useless.

[Palmyrene]

It's obvious he is not a kid from Syria. That said, that doesn't mean he's not a kid.

Dude you can believe what you want. If it makes you feel better that's all that matters.

Although his arguments are incoherent and silly, and they can be swatted away with ease, his persistence at least gives everyone a chance to point out the holes in Mutualist theory.

Dude you've struggled so hard that you've resorted to posting unrelated quotes as arguments. Other people in this thread have done a better job than you've done at debating.

So, in that, he/she is not completely useless.

You still, to the present, cannot properly address the anarchist definition of hierarchy.

[ingliz]

posting unrelated quotes as arguments

I presume you are referring to the Lewis Carroll, The Hunting of the Snark quote. Surely, if you can post pages of nonsensical prose, I am allowed to post one verse of nonsense poetry.

And it was not an unrelated quote.

Note:

You : I've said this before and I'll say it again. Difference does not equal hierarchy.

The Bellman: "Just the place for a Snark!
I have said it twice:
I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true."

Repeating ad nauseum, "There is no hierarchy," does not make it true. Magical thinking, a belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world, is a thought disorder.





Reason for edit: Sticky keyboard not enough 'L's

[Nonsense]

@noemon

Majoritarian elections are rarely consensual since they are binding to people who didn't vote for them. It is even unsatisfactory to people who voted for their chosen candidate since the politician they successfully voted for may go against or unfulfill their promises. I don't know about you but I don't want any others "speaking on behalf of me" or making their own choices and claiming they are my choices.

And there is a way of abandoning electoral politics. Don't practice it. Practising electoral politics will only lead to the proliferation of electoral politics. Look at liberal democracies across the world; are they close to achieveing anarchism? No. In fact many are falling to fascism instead.

There are pathways to anarchism outside of electoral politics which you aren't aware of. General strikes, dual power, building counter institutions, forming affinity groups, etc. all of these not only help building an anarchist society but have also been successful before.

Anarchism is not dependant upon anything. It is independent from all paradigms even ideology itself.

I agree with some of what you say. Anarchism is extraneous to any political paradigm as it doesn't require any ideological root structure, rather the absense of any form of conformity by way of direction or objectivism.

Such as it is, for what it's worth, anarchism is a rejection, or another form of nihilism, that has yet to demonstrate a value worthy of personal pursuit, that has benefits applicable in any wider sense.

From the point of view of agreeing that there is some logical thought that justifies your post, it really doesn't present itself as something worthy of further enquiry.

Ingliz " Repeating ad nauseum, "There is no hierarchy," does not make it true. Magical thinking, a belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world, is a thought disorder".

There is only a hierarchy, if one conforms to that notion, telling someone that you are, in some way 'superior' to them, implies that they are 'inferior' in some way to yourself, which is pretty silly & pretentious.

Some people would be inclined to take those assertions to heart & take the initiative in disuading such harboured thoughts by landing a well aimed punch to that individuals nose with more to come if they dare persist in holding on to those thoughts.


I think that I have just hit the nail on the head with what defines 'anarchism'.

[Palmyrene]

I presume you are referring to the Lewis Carroll, The Hunting of the Snark quote. Surely, if you can post pages of nonsensical prose, I am allowed to post one verse of nonsense poetry.

And it was not an unrelated quote.

Note:

You : I've said this before and I'll say it again. Difference does not equal hierarchy.

The Bellman: "Just the place for a Snark!
I have said it twice:
I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true."

Repeating ad nauseum, "There is no hierarchy," does not make it true. Magical thinking, a belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world, is a thought disorder.





Reason for edit: Sticky keyboard not enough 'L's

If you don't understand something of course it would appear to be nonsense.

My reasons for rejecting your evidence is simple. Your evidence which claims that hierarchy is found in nature, does not define hierarchy similarly to how anarchists identify hierarchy. Thus, it does not address "hierarchy" the way anarchists define it at all.

[Palmyrene]

@Nonsense

Actually anarchism does have an ideological structure. The assumption it doesn't is the rest of the most common stereotypes of anarchists as "rebels without a cause" which us undoubtedly a false characterization of anarchism.

Regardless in the post you just quoted, I've discussed counter institutions which are practical forms of dismantling and rebelling against hierarchy while also building the institutions which will be present in an anarchist society.

It's also a false characterization of nihilism. Probably from someone who has never read Nietzsche.

[ingliz]

Your evidence which claims that hierarchy is found in nature,

You choose to ignore my many posts presenting evidence showing the hierarchy inherent in social networks.

Thus, it does not address "hierarchy" the way anarchists define it at all.

And this is why you will build an anarchy fit to service the status quo.

A system that must reproduce, everywhere in their actual organisation all the shortcomings of the prevailing system.