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By anasawad
#15020344
Lebanon is the name given to Lebanon by Lebanese people, it means white land in reference to the ice caps that used to exist and the heavy snow fall, and it's in Lebanese language and writing with the oldest inscriptions found in Byblos.
Phoenicia is the foreign name for Lebanon, not Lebanon itself.

You posted a summary of a book talking about the creation of the Lebanese REPUBLIC, But just as you came out of reading a book about a stateless society thinking there is no hierarchy, You obviously missed the word republic right after it.
What I'm saying is that your opinion on the book is shit because you don't know what the book is talking about. Just like most other places.

I didn't make anything up, you just don't know how to use google to search basic terms like Semitic people or even Levantian civilizations and ethnicities to be more specific.

For ethnic Lebanese "Not existing". Literally the first thing you'll come across when researching whether Lebanese people are Arabs is the dozens of studies showing that Lebanese people have direct ancestry to the people living in Lebanon for thousands of years, with both ancestral and genetic links based on various excavations. Clearly you did your research on the topic.

Lebanon only began being considered an Arab country and recognized as such in 1989, while it's under occupation from the fascist Syrian Baathist, forcing it's demented Arab nationalism on the people of Lebanon.
Some Arabs living in Lebanon doesn't make the country Arabic.

Either way, I'm again done with you.
Your arguments are shit and divorced from reality as you parrot the bullshit Pan Arab nationalists and Fascist Baathists talking points they used to justify their crimes.
Go learn how to read and learn basic research then come back here.
#15020349
anasawad wrote:Lebanon is the name given to Lebanon by Lebanese people, it means white land in reference to the ice caps that used to exist and the heavy snow fall, and it's in Lebanese language and writing with the oldest inscriptions found in Byblos.
Phoenicia is the foreign name for Lebanon, not Lebanon itself.


Yeah I'm going to need citation for that because Lebanon the country is named after Mount Lebanon. It did not exist in it's current borders for the past 4000+ years all my evidence proves otherwise.

You posted a summary of a book talking about the creation of the Lebanese REPUBLIC,


No it was about Lebanese identity and the creation of Lebanon the country. The book specifically states that the French created Lebanon and encouraged Lebanese identity.

You wouldn't even know anyways because you specifically said that you wouldn't read the wall of text and that you've never read the book either. And given that I wrote the fucking summary I would know what I'm talking about.

I didn't make anything up, you just don't know how to use google to search basic terms like Semitic people or even Levantian civilizations and ethnicities to be more specific.


What the fuck do you think was the first thing I looked up genius? Even the wikipedia article on semitic people doesn't mention the terms you've made up.

For ethnic Lebanese "Not existing". Literally the first thing you'll come across when researching whether Lebanese people are Arabs is the dozens of studies showing that Lebanese people have direct ancestry to the people living in Lebanon for thousands of years, with both ancestral and genetic links based on various excavations. Clearly you did your research on the topic.


Uh huh. Where do you think I got my resources and evidence if not by researching this same exact fucking topic? Most Lebanese people are descended from prior Arab migrants and the invaders that came during the 7th century.

You are making this up and inability to provide tangible valid proof is evidence of this.

Lebanon only began being considered an Arab country and recognized as such in 1989, while it's under occupation from the fascist Syrian Baathist, forcing it's demented Arab nationalism on the people of Lebanon.
Some Arabs living in Lebanon doesn't make the country Arabic.


Yeah I'm going to have to repost my summary and bold certain things because everything you said here is wrong.

Also I posted a full list of people identified as Arab in Lebanon during the 11th to 18th centuries and almost everyone then identified as Arab so you're wrong. The Lebanese considered themselves Arabs before Syria came in.

And also Syria wasn't there long enough to actually leave such a cultural impact anyways so the idea that Syria came in the 80s and now everyone is suddenly Arab is retarded.

Either way, I'm again done with you.
Your arguments are shit and divorced from reality as you parrot the bullshit Pan Arab nationalists and Fascist Baathists talking points they used to justify their crimes.
Go learn how to read and learn basic research then come back here.


I'm not. What about "I'm anarchist and oppose all governments" is so hard to understand? The point is that Lebanese identify as Arabs. This does not support pan Arabism or Baathism or any other kind nationalism.

The only person being nationalist is you by inventing an entirely new ethnicity for no reason other than to distinguish yourself from Arabs. Fighting nationalism with nationalism is a retarded fucking strategy.
#15020551
Palmyrene wrote:It did not exist...

It's bound up in politics - Christian nationalism - but it is not unreasonable that the Christian majority argue that Arabization merely represented a shift to the Arabic language as the vernacular of the Lebanese people, and that no actual shift of ethnic identity, much less ancestral origins, occurred.

With their own histories and lore, they can argue that they do not belong to the one pan-Arab ethnicity, and thus such categorisation is erred or inapplicable.

a summary of a book

An independent people forges its own identity.
#15020559
@Palmyrene
Yeah I'm going to need citation for that because Lebanon the country is named after Mount Lebanon. It did not exist in it's current borders for the past 4000+ years all my evidence proves otherwise.


The area now known as Lebanon first appeared in recorded history around 4000 BC as a group of coastal cities and a heavily forested hinterland. It was inhabited by the Canaanites, a Semitic people, whom the Greeks called "Phoenicians" because of the purple (phoinikies) dye they sold. These early inhabitants referred to themselves as "men of Sidon" or the like, according to their city of origin, and called the country "Lebanon." Because of the nature of the country and its location, the Phoenicians turned to the sea, where they engaged in trade and navigation.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... nt_Lebanon

Lebanon, named "the white one" by the prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 18:14) because snow covered it most of the year, is a long mountain range extending over a distance of about 160 km from southwest to northeast along the Mediterranean coast, from Nahr el-Litani to Nahr el-Kebir. It comprises two parallel mountain ranges, the Lebanon as the western mountain range and the Anti-Lebanon as the eastern mountain range. Enclosed between the two mountain ranges lies the Beqa‘ Valley, which the Old Testament author of the Book of Joshua simply called "the Lebanon Valley" (Joshua 11:17, 12:7). The same author named the southern part of the Anti-Lebanon Mount Hermon (Joshua 11:17).

The etymological origin of the name "Lebanon" (lebanôn) is explained in several ways. The most likely and most widely-held view states that the name "Lebanon" is derived from the Semitic root lbn, "white, to be white" (Houston Smith 1992: 269; Honigmann 1926: 4; Abel 1933: 340; Mulder 1984: 462). It is reasonable to assume that the almost perennial "white snow" on the top of the mountain ("Does the snow of Lebanon ever leave the rocks of its slopes?" Jeremiah 18:14) suggested such a name. The white color may also have been seen in reference to the chalk and limestone walls that give the Lebanon range its characteristic features (cf. Gangloff 1997: 4). Nevertheless, other explanations have been advanced. Lewy found in the name a reference to the moon-deity Laban (Lewy 1944: 455f; cf. Mulder 1984: 463), and Eusebius, in his Praeparatio Evangelica I.9, recorded a euphemistic legend told by Philo Byblius according to which the names of Mount Lebanon, the mountain range of the Anti-Lebanon and other Syrian mountains were derived from the name of a giant who once dwelt there (Eusebius 1974: 188-190; Honigmann 1926: 8; Mulder 1984: 463; Green 1995: 449). In early times, most high mountains were thought of as the abode of a god. In the case of Mount Lebanon, it would have been Baal Lebanon, sometimes identified as Hadad (Avi-Yonah 1982: 1542). However, neither of these last two etymologies for the name seem very likely.

One final suggestion for an explanation of the name is more plausible. The Hittite and Hurrite words for "cypress" and "juniper" are very similar in appearance when compared to the Hittite and Hurrite words for "Lebanon Mountains" (Haas and Thiel 1979: 343f; Mulder 1984: 463; Green 1995: 449). It is reasonable to assume that the famous cedars of Lebanon could have been the source of the name of both the mountain and the country. In various ancient languages, the name differed only slightly: "Levanon in Hebrew, Libnah in Phoenician, Labnanu in Assyrian, and Lablani or Niblani in Hittite" (Avi-Yonah 1982: 1542).

http://www.maronite-institute.org/MARI/ ... ptures.htm

https://lebanonuntravelled.com/epic-of- ... f-lebanon/



What the fuck do you think was the first thing I looked up genius? Even the wikipedia article on semitic people doesn't mention the terms you've made up.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/527471.pdf


Uh huh. Where do you think I got my resources and evidence if not by researching this same exact fucking topic? Most Lebanese people are descended from prior Arab migrants and the invaders that came during the 7th century.

:|
So Lebanon, one of the oldest countries in the world and holding 5 of the oldest continuously inhabited cities, was just empty I guess.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv ... 8.full.pdf

And also Syria wasn't there long enough to actually leave such a cultural impact anyways so the idea that Syria came in the 80s and now everyone is suddenly Arab is retarded.

The country wasn't Arab. It was forced to change its constitution and call it self Arab under Syrian occupation.

http://ddc.aub.edu.lb/projects/pspa/con ... ution.html
The Taif Agreement.

Fighting nationalism with nationalism is a retarded fucking strategy.

You, and they, are arguing for internationalism.
#15020563
For ethnic Lebanese "Not existing". Literally the first thing you'll come across when researching whether Lebanese people are Arabs is the dozens of studies showing that Lebanese people have direct ancestry to the people living in Lebanon for thousands of years, with both ancestral and genetic links based on various excavations. Clearly you did your research on the topic.


More than 90 percent of the genetic ancestry of modern Lebanese is derived from ancient Canaanites, according to a paper published in the American Journal of Human Genetics (Haber et al. 2017). Canaanite ancestry is a mix of indigenous populations who settled the Levant around 10,000 years ago and migrants who arrived from the east between 6,600 and 3,550 years ago, which implies genetic continuity in the Levant since at least the Bronze Age. An additional Eurasian element was added to the genetic makeup around 3,750–2,170 years ago.

Image

The Canaanites inhabited the Levant region during the Bronze Age and established a culture that became influential in the Near East and beyond. However, the Canaanites, unlike most other ancient Near Easterners of this period, left few surviving textual records and thus their origin and relationship to ancient and present-day populations remain unclear. In this study, we sequenced five whole genomes from ∼3,700-year-old individuals from the city of Sidon, a major Canaanite city-state on the Eastern Mediterranean coast. We also sequenced the genomes of 99 individuals from present-day Lebanon to catalog modern Levantine genetic diversity. We find that a Bronze Age Canaanite-related ancestry was widespread in the region, shared among urban populations inhabiting the coast (Sidon) and inland populations (Jordan) who likely lived in farming societies or were pastoral nomads. This Canaanite-related ancestry derived from mixture between local Neolithic populations and eastern migrants genetically related to Chalcolithic Iranians. We estimate, using linkage-disequilibrium decay patterns, that admixture occurred 6,600–3,550 years ago, coinciding with recorded massive population movements in Mesopotamia during the mid-Holocene. We show that present-day Lebanese derive most of their ancestry from a Canaanite-related population, which therefore implies substantial genetic continuity in the Levant since at least the Bronze Age. In addition, we find Eurasian ancestry in the Lebanese not present in Bronze Age or earlier Levantines. We estimate that this Eurasian ancestry arrived in the Levant around 3,750–2,170 years ago during a period of successive conquests by distant populations.
https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8
#15020676
anasawad wrote:@Palmyrene




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... nt_Lebanon


There is no citations for any of this on Wikipedia. It could all be made up. And you posted this before too and I made the same argument, there are no citations.

http://www.maronite-institute.org/MARI/ ... ptures.htm

https://lebanonuntravelled.com/epic-of- ... f-lebanon/


Wow you're posting a Western written travel guide on Lebanon as evidence. The first one is good though.

Both of these literally just prove my point that they only mention Mount Lebanon not "the modern borders of Lebanon" which were not set in stone until the French decided it.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/527471.pdf


It talks about Semitic languages not race. South Semitic isn't a racial term, it denotates dialect and language. This has been established before. We've already dealt with this issue.

OMG if you're going to make an entire fucking thread for this shit then at least give me new arguments. Don't waste my time by bringing up the same shit I've dealt with before.


:|
So Lebanon, one of the oldest countries in the world and holding 5 of the oldest continuously inhabited cities, was just empty I guess.


The only article which mentions Lebanon as a country is a wikipedia article with no citations. Everything else discussing only Mount Lebanon.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv ... 8.full.pdf


So what is this supposed to prove? That Lebanese people, like everyone else in the Levant, has Canaanite admixture in there? This doesn't prove they aren't Arab which itself is an identity not a gene.

The country wasn't Arab. It was forced to change its constitution and call it self Arab under Syrian occupation.

http://ddc.aub.edu.lb/projects/pspa/con ... ution.html
The Taif Agreement.


And this apparently is why most Lebanese from the 11th century to modern day call themselves Arab.

You, and they, are arguing for internationalism.


Of solidarity with workers and other downtrodden people which is ten times more appealing than your constant nationalistic rhetoric of how all Lebanese are totally Phoenician so you can make them ignore the gross injustices which permeate their society.
#15020681
ingliz wrote:It's bound up in politics - Christian nationalism - but it is not unreasonable that the Christian majority argue that Arabization merely represented a shift to the Arabic language as the vernacular of the Lebanese people, and that no actual shift of ethnic identity, much less ancestral origins, occurred.

With their own histories and lore, they can argue that they do not belong to the one pan-Arab ethnicity, and thus such categorisation is erred or inapplicable.


An independent people forges its own identity.


If you were a Marxist you would understand class analysis right?

Look at who is saying this kind of stuff. Only the upper class or bourgeoise Maronites care for this kind of thing. Yes there is nationalism in Lebanon but only certain bourgeoise go as far as to say that they aren't Arabs but Phoenician or something. And this isn't even considering the rest of the population.

In regards to histories and lore, each tribe has their own; my tribe included. It is fundamentally not homogenously Christian in any way.
By anasawad
#15020692
@Palmyrene

Since you continue to demonstrate that you don't know how to read.
It mentions Lebanon as a mountain range with the valley in between them, Calling all of them Lebanon, which is modern-day Lebanon.

And the "travel guide" shows the mention in the epic of Gilgamesh, which is more than enough.

So what is this supposed to prove? That Lebanese people, like everyone else in the Levant, has Canaanite admixture in there? This doesn't prove they aren't Arab which itself is an identity not a gene.


Yes, That Levantian people are not the same as Arabs.
There are several ethnic groups sharing origins in the Levant, and none are Arabs, as demonstrated.

And this apparently is why most Lebanese from the 11th century to modern day call themselves Arab.

And the retardation continues.
If everyone in Lebanon called themselves Arabs, then it wont need a military occupation to force the category on the country, nor will there be all sorts of ancient ethnic and cultural sites still operational from the various ethnic groups and cultures forming Lebanon.

Of solidarity with workers and other downtrodden people which is ten times more appealing than your constant nationalistic rhetoric of how all Lebanese are totally Phoenician so you can make them ignore the gross injustices which permeate their society.

They're not all phoenicians, if you actually read ( which I know you don't, it's not hard to figure out), I said dozens of times Lebanese people have a whole set of ethnic and cultural backgrounds, and one of them is indeed native Lebanese people who are not Arabs, and have been living in the land that is called Lebanon for the past several thousands of years far before Arabs even existed (The Baalbek tribes are one good example).
You are arguing that all are Arabs, when infact only a minority are Arabs.

The injustices currently happening in Lebanon are primarily focused where other Arab powers and pan-arab nationalists like yourself had their way and started butchering people and destroying everything in the name of "Arab nationalism".
There is a reason why the poorest areas in Lebanon are the areas where Baathists and other Arab nationalist managed to take full control.
They, and people who propagate their ideas like yourself, are a disease that seeks to perpetuate the corrupt colonial legacy of the various murderous and genocidal Arab and Islamic empires, and in the way spread chaos and destruction where ever they go.

Every fucking time you sick Arabs come in contact with something, you end up ruining it and destroying it.
Every area in Lebanon that was infected with this pan-Arab nationalistic cancer and proudly proclaimed to be Arab has been flooded with all the trash and scum from the worst types of people in the middle east joining them to "fight for Arab nationalism".

The only communities in Lebanon that fair well are the ones who purged out all Arab influence from them and reclaimed their sovereignty and independence. The communities who sold their country to the Arabs are the ones where people are starving; Because that's what the Arabs with wretched fanaticism and sick Islamic ideologies do, they corrupt and ruin everything they touch.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15020695
Palmyrene wrote:Look...

Just admit you are wrong and move on.

The Christians in Lebanon do not consider themselves Arabs.

This shouldn't surprise anyone given the persecution they received from Arabs after the Great War. The Catholic French (A part of France's claim to territories in the Levant was that France was a protector of the minority Christian communities) lobbied to obtain the Mandate in Lebanon to provide a refuge for Christians.
Last edited by ingliz on 23 Jul 2019 18:00, edited 1 time in total.
By anasawad
#15020699
@Zionist Nationalist
True, These are the Shias I mentioned a few posts earlier who are not tribal and do consider themselves to be Arab. In the first wave of the discussion.

I'm sure you can also look up along side it pictures of the areas of these communities. hint; It's slums.
Because they accepted 100s of thousands of Arab nationalists and Baathists into their communities over the years, and now these areas are ridden with poverty and trash and most people outside of it would prefer to stay out of it due to what it has became.

Look online to Lebanese forums and see the opinions on Al-Dahieh or Tariq Al Jadideh or Anjar or Wadi Khaled. All areas proudly proclaim to be Arab and invite Pan Arabists in, and everyone else in Lebanon stays out and away of these areas because they're the most dangerous, have the highest crime rates, corruption, etc. They're not clean, and that's where all the gangs are, especially the Islamic gangs of both Sunni and Shia origin.

Even the tribal leaders who gave money to Hezbollah to fund the various social programs and hospitals wont go anywhere near these areas, literally, not a single meeting has taken place in them, always refused to go there.
And now with 100s of thousands of Baathists as well, along with tons of Palestinian Arab nationalists in the form of Hamas who moved there recently after the alawites started kicking them out of the north, these areas are becoming crime hubs for all sorts of fanatics and gangs.
By Palmyrene
#15020705
anasawad wrote:@Palmyrene

Since you continue to demonstrate that you don't know how to read.
It mentions Lebanon as a mountain range with the valley in between them, Calling all of them Lebanon, which is modern-day Lebanon.


No it isn't. The actual borders of modern day Lebanon weren't actually formalized until the French had their final say. Previously, Lebanon was proposed stretched all the way to Sinai and parta of coastal Syria. It is completely artificial.

And the "travel guide" shows the mention in the epic of Gilgamesh, which is more than enough.


No, it isn't. Mentioning the Epic of Gilgamesh which has several translations that don't mention Lebanon is not enough.

Yes, That Levantian people are not the same as Arabs.
There are several ethnic groups sharing origins in the Levant, and none are Arabs, as demonstrated.


:faceplam:

Ok. Here's how genetics works. Just because you have some admixture from other races does not mean you are said admixture. It's necessary to understand that the category of Canaanite itself is a superfluous one which has been given due to simply not knowing what they themselves referred to themselves.

The point of the matter is that a majority Lebanese people refer to themselves as Arab and see themselves as similar to other Arabs. They have done so since the 11th century and onward. There were also Arabs who migrated to what is now modern day Lebanon and even had a kingdom there.

And the retardation continues.
If everyone in Lebanon called themselves Arabs, then it wont need a military occupation to force the category on the country, nor will there be all sorts of ancient ethnic and cultural sites still operational from the various ethnic groups and cultures forming Lebanon.


This is such a stupid argument.

Firstly, the Syrian government at the time operated under Ba'athist ideology which legitimatized all expansion as a part of meeting the goal of pan-Arabism. Thus, they had a Caisus Belli for all conquest.

The late Assad used this excuse to start an occupation of Lebanon which itself was started due to political issues. Hanna Batatu talks about this in his class analysis of Syria.

The Syrian occupation of Lebanon used the facade of pan-Arabism to justify conquest. It had nothing to do with Lebanon not being Arab. It was because Lebanon identified as Arab that let Assad justify his conquest.

Secondly, there's plenty of non Arab heritage sites in Arabia too and the Gulf as well. This doesn't mean the current, contemporary inhabitants of those areas aren't Arab. Same goes for Lebanon.

They're not all phoenicians, if you actually read ( which I know you don't, it's not hard to figure out), I said dozens of times Lebanese people have a whole set of ethnic and cultural backgrounds, and one of them is indeed native Lebanese people who are not Arabs, and have been living in the land that is called Lebanon for the past several thousands of years far before Arabs even existed (The Baalbek tribes are one good example).


1. No one is native to any particular land. Every human group migrated to land at some point.

2. Saying that there is a minority that lived in Lebanon before Arabs is different from saying they are all that minority.

3. There is no such thing as a Lebanese ethnicity. No ethnicity in Lebanon identifies as such. Even the one you're referring to are Aramaic.

You are arguing that all are Arabs, when infact only a minority are Arabs.


I'm arguing that the majority identify as Arab and thus are. That is the rules of cultural affiliation. If there was no consent to it then such genetic ties would be meaningless.

The injustices currently happening in Lebanon are primarily focused where other Arab powers and pan-arab nationalists like yourself had their way and started butchering people and destroying everything in the name of "Arab nationalism".


Yeah I'm a pan-Arabist for thinking Lebanon is an artifical state. Totally.

No. Pan-Arabism politically by this point is dead. There are no pan-Arab powers that exist. The Gulf isn't even interested in integration.

This is the equivalent of making up a boogie man to "unite" people.

There is a reason why the poorest areas in Lebanon are the areas where Baathists and other Arab nationalist managed to take full control.


You mean the areas where people identify as Arabs? I.e. a majority of the population?

I have not seen Baathists in Lebanon ever. I'm not even sure there are any of significant political influence there. There's the SSNP but they're not pan-Arabist.

They, and people who propagate their ideas like yourself, are a disease that seeks to perpetuate the corrupt colonial legacy of the various murderous and genocidal Arab and Islamic empires, and in the way spread chaos and destruction where ever they go.


Anarchism isn't Arab. It was actually started by a Frenchmen and is in opposition to colonialism.

Every fucking time you sick Arabs come in contact with something, you end up ruining it and destroying it.


Looks like I was right. It is racism or refusal to associate with the lower classes.

Omg. Wait are you bourgeoise too? Please say yes so I can prove my theory to @ingliz.

Every area in Lebanon that was infected with this pan-Arab nationalistic cancer and proudly proclaimed to be Arab has been flooded with all the trash and scum from the worst types of people in the middle east joining them to "fight for Arab nationalism".


You're doing a very good job proving my point that a majority of Lebanon identify as Arab. Also that only upper class Maronites/non-Arabs refuse to identify as such.

The only communities in Lebanon that fair well are the ones who purged out all Arab influence from them and reclaimed their sovereignty and independence. The communities who sold their country to the Arabs are the ones where people are starving; Because that's what the Arabs with wretched fanaticism and sick Islamic ideologies do, they corrupt and ruin everything they touch.


:lol: :lol:

I'm so proud of myself. I won the argument in the best way possible.

What a beautiful meltdown you just had anasawad. Absolutely exquisite. And all for little ol' me? Oh you're too much.

At least we all know not only that I'm completely right and my suspicion was correct, but that you're just very racist and don't like poor people.
By Palmyrene
#15020706
ingliz wrote:Just admit you are wrong and move on.

The Christians in Lebanon do not consider themselves Arabs.


If you'd look at anasawad's meltdown, a great deal of the population (i.e. the poor and slightly middle class) does identify as Arab and if you've been following our debate you'd know that every single suspicion I've had has come true.

You have no idea how happy I am ingliz. No idea.

This shouldn't surprise anyone given the persecution they received from Arabs after the Great War. The Catholic French (A part of France's claim to territories in the Levant was that France was a protector of the minority Christian communities) lobbied to obtain the Mandate in Lebanon to provide a refuge for Christians.


Are you seriously defending Sykes Picot? The thing that led to most of the problems in the MidEast today?

First of all, the land that Lebanon contains consists of more than the Christian minority. Second of all, what persecution are you talking about? Do you mean from Muslims? Third, the mandate was a political move to more easily control the Middle East via division a tactic that was used by other colonial powers prior.
By Palmyrene
#15020707
anasawad wrote:@Zionist Nationalist
True, These are the Shias I mentioned a few posts earlier who are not tribal and do consider themselves to be Arab. In the first wave of the discussion.


In my experience, they do.

I'm sure you can also look up along side it pictures of the areas of these communities. hint; It's slums.
Because they accepted 100s of thousands of Arab nationalists and Baathists into their communities over the years, and now these areas are ridden with poverty and trash and most people outside of it would prefer to stay out of it due to what it has became.

Look online to Lebanese forums and see the opinions on Al-Dahieh or Tariq Al Jadideh or Anjar or Wadi Khaled. All areas proudly proclaim to be Arab and invite Pan Arabists in, and everyone else in Lebanon stays out and away of these areas because they're the most dangerous, have the highest crime rates, corruption, etc. They're not clean, and that's where all the gangs are, especially the Islamic gangs of both Sunni and Shia origin.

Even the tribal leaders who gave money to Hezbollah to fund the various social programs and hospitals wont go anywhere near these areas, literally, not a single meeting has taken place in them, always refused to go there.
And now with 100s of thousands of Baathists as well, along with tons of Palestinian Arab nationalists in the form of Hamas who moved there recently after the alawites started kicking them out of the north, these areas are becoming crime hubs for all sorts of fanatics and gangs.


:lol: you see this emoji? This emoji cannot contain how much joy I feel right now.

Wow such a hatred and distaste for the poor. Such vitriol hatred and contempt. You point to the socio economic condition of blacks for their behavior yet claim that pan-Arabism is the cause of all ills in the Lebanese poor.

You know, the way talk about the poor im Lebanon is similar to how less sympathetic caste nobles in India discussed the peasantry. The peasantry suffer for being sinful or, in your case, being pan-Arabist. It is only the pure, non-Arabs who are closest to achieving enlightenment.

But what is this enlightenment? What are it's implications?

I'm sure you can't answer that question ;)

:lol:
User avatar
By ingliz
#15020716
Palmyrene wrote:Are you seriously defending Sykes Picot?

No, I am merely stating a fact.

Christians were persecuted after the Great War by their Arab neighbours and the persecution was so bad that Catholic France could use 'the persecution of Christians' when lobbying for the League of Nations Mandate.


:)
By Palmyrene
#15020717
ingliz wrote:No, I am merely stating a fact.

Christians were persecuted after the Great War by their Arab neighbours and the persecution was so bad that Catholic France could use 'the persecution of Christians' when lobbying for the League of Nations Mandate.


:)


Can I have more details on this persecution because something is missing here.
By anasawad
#15020721
@Palmyrene
If you'd look at anasawad's meltdown, a great deal of the population (i.e. the poor and slightly middle class) does identify as Arab and if you've been following our debate you'd know that every single suspicion I've had has come true.

The majority of the population of Lebanon are either Christians maronites mainly Merchants and service sector, all are middle class due to the strong local well fare system supporting them organized by various churches, or in the Baalbek tribes who are mixed between all religions and have a system of communal ownership and land and thus there is no poverty.

Another place where you demonstrate your ignorance of the words you use.

The Areas I mentioned are a minority areas and that's where all the Arab nationalists live.
Most areas of Lebanon are not "poor".

No it isn't. The actual borders of modern day Lebanon weren't actually formalized until the French had their final say. Previously, Lebanon was proposed stretched all the way to Sinai and parta of coastal Syria. It is completely artificial.

The borders are geographically defined.
For fuck's sake, It's been like that for thousands of years because there are fucking mountains between us and the other areas.

No, it isn't. Mentioning the Epic of Gilgamesh which has several translations that don't mention Lebanon is not enough.

Where else does Cedar forests exists ?

Ok. Here's how genetics works. Just because you have some admixture from other races does not mean you are said admixture. It's necessary to understand that the category of Canaanite itself is a superfluous one which has been given due to simply not knowing what they themselves referred to themselves.

Arabs are from Hijaz and Yemen, they're of different genetic group.
Canaanites are the ones who originally were in the Levant. Canaanites are split into multi nations and ethnic groups which includes Lebanese people, Aramaeans, and Jews as the majority.

The point of the matter is that a majority Lebanese people refer to themselves as Arab and see themselves as similar to other Arabs.

False

They have done so since the 11th century and onward.

More bullshit.

Firstly, the Syrian government at the time operated under Ba'athist ideology which legitimatized all expansion as a part of meeting the goal of pan-Arabism. Thus, they had a Caisus Belli for all conquest.

The late Assad used this excuse to start an occupation of Lebanon which itself was started due to political issues. Hanna Batatu talks about this in his class analysis of Syria.

The Syrian occupation of Lebanon used the facade of pan-Arabism to justify conquest. It had nothing to do with Lebanon not being Arab. It was because Lebanon identified as Arab that let Assad justify his conquest.

Secondly, there's plenty of non Arab heritage sites in Arabia too and the Gulf as well. This doesn't mean the current, contemporary inhabitants of those areas aren't Arab. Same goes for Lebanon.

Syria needed Lebanon to forcably change its constitution and declare it self as an Arab country in order to be able to justify its conquest and military occupation, which is what the taif agreement is about.

The people in Lebanon are not Arabs, and never saw themselves as Arabs.
The various revolts, wars, etc over the past centuries were all for the same reason, to repel Arabs from the area.

1. No one is native to any particular land. Every human group migrated to land at some point.

Then you don't know what native is. Unsurprisingly ofcourse.

2. Saying that there is a minority that lived in Lebanon before Arabs is different from saying they are all that minority.

You're the one saying that. You're saying that the minority of Arabs is all there is.

3. There is no such thing as a Lebanese ethnicity. No ethnicity in Lebanon identifies as such. Even the one you're referring to are Aramaic.

Aramaic people do exist in Lebanon, along with other minorities just as Arabs do.
However in overall, a majority or semi majority are native Lebanese.

I'm arguing that the majority identify as Arab and thus are. That is the rules of cultural affiliation. If there was no consent to it then such genetic ties would be meaningless.

A minority only identifies as Arab.
And if you go to non-Arab communities and called them Arabs, you'll be shot.

May I refer you to the case of Mohammed Trabolsi, a Sunni Imam who went to Baalbek and declared long live the Arab nation, then had a clip emptied in his head right after as a good example of what will happen.
You see, no one really likes Arab nationalists, especially when they try to enforce their colonialism on us and force their Arab identity on us.

Yeah I'm a pan-Arabist for thinking Lebanon is an artifical state. Totally.

An "artificial state" with a long list of dynasties and monarchs and sets of laws extending over several thousands of years.
Yup, that's what artificial states usually have, they all have thousands of years of history of governments in them.

No. Pan-Arabism politically by this point is dead. There are no pan-Arab powers that exist. The Gulf isn't even interested in integration.

This is the equivalent of making up a boogie man to "unite" people.

Apparent by you parroting their ideas.

You mean the areas where people identify as Arabs? I.e. a majority of the population?

No, a countable number of areas with a minority of the population.

Looks like I was right. It is racism or refusal to associate with the lower classes.

If it's racist to dislike the Arabs. Then I'm more than proud to be racist in this instance.

And the only reason why these areas are poor is because they constantly import Arab nationalist ideas and apply it to govern their areas, along with the entailed corruption of these ideologies.

Omg. Wait are you bourgeoise too? Please say yes so I can prove my theory to @ingliz.

You don't know what that word means.

Also that only upper class Maronites/non-Arabs refuse to identify as such.

You mean Maronites, Greek and Russian Orthodox, and the Baalbek tribes refuse to identify as Arabs ?
Those pretty much account for atleast 80% of the population on their own.

I won the argument in the best way possible.

The only thing you did is prove your ignorance and the success of pan-Arabists and Islamists in brainwashing vast swathes of the population.


Wow such a hatred and distaste for the poor. Such vitriol hatred and contempt. You point to the socio economic condition of blacks for their behavior yet claim that pan-Arabism is the cause of all ills in the Lebanese poor.

You know, the way talk about the poor im Lebanon is similar to how less sympathetic caste nobles in India discussed the peasantry. The peasantry suffer for being sinful or, in your case, being pan-Arabist. It is only the pure, non-Arabs who are closest to achieving enlightenment.

But what is this enlightenment? What are it's implications?

I'm sure you can't answer that question

There is no specific system that can do that, rather many can.
But we are fully experienced in how Pan arabists, nationalists, Islamists, and baathists run things and how it does lead to this poverty and ruin.

It's a matter of ideology not race. Unfortunetly, Arabs are mainly following these ideologies.

The reason why it is true is because all other groups in Lebanon, of various races, ethnicities, and cultures all managed to get out of the poverty they were in (including Baalbek which was dead poor just 40 years ago) right after they decided to remove all these influences coming from the Arabs. And not in one specific system, but rather a whole set of systems and policies and they all succeeded.

Weird, right?


EDIT:
Note:
Majority of poor people in Lebanon at the moment are in areas directly under Hezbollah and the future movement control, along with Palestinian camps under Hamas rule, along with the recent Syrian refugees, majority of them living in Hezbollah territories.
By Palmyrene
#15020729
anasawad wrote:@Palmyrene

The majority of the population of Lebanon are either Christians maronites mainly Merchants and service sector, all are middle class due to the strong local well fare system supporting them organized by various churches, or in the Baalbek tribes who are mixed between all religions and have a system of communal ownership and land and thus there is no poverty.

Another place where you demonstrate your ignorance of the words you use.


Dude, I've been to Lebanon and I know this is completely wrong. I've met poor Maronites. Dime the dozen actually. The point of the matter is that your system that you're describing either doesn't work as you think it does or isn't an option for most Maronites.

The Areas I mentioned are a minority areas and that's where all the Arab nationalists live.
Most areas of Lebanon are not "poor".


1. It's laughable that you think a majority of your population's country is not poor or working class. It's like how Americans all see themselves as "middle class" when their wealth disparity is noted.

2. Ah so all the Arab nationalists live in one place right? Well a study was done by the Doha Institute which, in their Arab opinion index, saw that a majority of Arabs (including Lebanon) support pan-Arabism.

https://out.reddit.com/t3_8oppdf?url=ht ... reddit.com

I don't support pan-Arabism but pretending it isn't popular in Lebanon is kind of disingenious.

The borders a geographically defined.
For fuck's sake, It's been like that for thousands of years because there are fucking mountains between us and the other areas.


Anasawad. We've talked about this. No borders are justified. There is no such thing as a border even if there was a huge natural wall seperating Lebanon from the rest of the world. Even if Lebanon was an island suddenly there would be no borders.

And if we're going for geography, Lebanin rests on the Arabian plate which us a teutonic plate that includes most of Kurdistan too.

Where else does Cedar forests exists ?


Simply because the Epic of Gilgamesh refers to Cedar forests does not mean they were referring specifically to the Republic of Lebanon and it's current modern borders.

Arabs are from Hijaz and Yemen, they're of different genetic group.


No, they aren't. The oldest fucking inscription of Arabic can be found in Palestine and Lebanon. We've talked about this several times.

Canaanites are the ones who originally were in the Levant. Canaanites are split into multi nations and ethnic groups which includes Lebanese people, Aramaeans, and Jews as the majority.


That doesn't indicate they even referred to themselves as Canaanites just that we needed a name for the people who lived in the Near East during the Bronze Age.

Also Lebanese, once again, isn't an ethnicity. No one identifies as ethnic Lebanese.

False


Great argument there Robin. I've been to Lebanon several times and most people identified as Arabs so unless you have statistically proof that most Lebanese people do not identify as Arab they are Arabs.

More bullshit.


7
I've posted a list of every single person from the 11th century onward who identified as Arab done to occupation. Do I need to post it again?

Syria needed Lebanon to forcably change its constitution and declare it self as an Arab country in order to be able to justify its conquest and military occupation, which is what the taif agreement is about.


Hold on one minute. The taif agreement was about Syria withdrawing from Lebanon. Why would they use Lebanon's Arabness to conquer them if the taif agreement was about them leaving Lebanon?

The people in Lebanon are not Arabs, and never saw themselves as Arabs.


A majority do and a majority even support pan-Arabism.

The various revolts, wars, etc over the past centuries were all for the same reason, to repel Arabs from the area.


No not really.

Then you don't know what native is. Unsurprisingly ofcourse.


I've posted the definition of native to you before. And according to it, Arabs living in Lebanon now would also be natives.

You're the one saying that. You're saying that the minority of Arabs is all there is.


They aren't a minority. A majority of people identify as Arab.

Aramaic people do exist in Lebanon, along with other minorities just as Arabs do.
However in overall, a majority or semi majority are native Lebanese.


I never said they didn't. Also Arabs who grew up in Lebanon would also be native.

A minority only identifies as Arab.
And if you go to non-Arab communities and called them Arabs, you'll be shot.


Thankfully a majority are Arabs since they identify as such so only a minority are non-Arabs.

May I refer you to the case of Mohammed Trabolsi, a Sunni Imam who went to Baalbek and declared long live the Arab nation, then had a clip emptied in his head right after as a good example of what will happen.


Yeah Baalbek is the entirety of Lebanon. I don't believe you. You're taking a small town or city in Lebanon and saying they're the majority.

You see, no one really likes Arab nationalists, especially when they try to enforce their colonialism on us and force their Arab identity on us.


Lebanese identifying as Arabs aren't oppressing you. It's their identity not yours.

An "artificial state" with a long list of dynasties and monarchs and sets of laws extending over several thousands of years.
Yup, that's what artificial states usually have, they all have thousands of years of history of governments in them.


What is now modern day Lebanon was either a bunch of city states who didn't identify as Lebanese at all or was the part of empires. Just liks Syria and Iraq and Jordan and Palestine.

Apparent by you parroting their ideas.


Saying most Lebanese people identify as Arab isn't pan-Arabism.

No, a countable number of areas with a minority of the population.


That's false. I've been to only the biggest areas of Lebanon and most people identified as Arab.

If it's racist to dislike the Arabs. Then I'm more than proud to be racist in this instance.


Oop boy you're just digging yourself a grave here.

You're a better argument against you than anything I can come up with.

And the only reason why these areas are poor is because they constantly import Arab nationalist ideas and apply it to govern their areas, along with the entailed corruption of these ideologies.


Yup. You are.

You don't know what that word means.


Oh I do. You are bourgeois.

You mean Maronites, Greek and Russian Orthodox, and the Baalbek tribes refuse to identify as Arabs ?


You mean minorities? And only upper class Maronites don't identify as Arab. I know this from experience.

Those pretty much account for atleast 80% of the population on their own.


They don't.

The only thing you did is prove your ignorance and the success of pan-Arabists and Islamists in brainwashing vast swathes of the population.


How can pan-Arabists brainwash vast swathes of the population while most Lebanese simulatenously don't identify as Arabs and, presumably, hate Arabs.

It just comes across as you using pan-Arabism as a boogey man. It's basically Umberto Eco's fascism where the enemy has to be strong but also weak at the same time.


There is no specific system that can do that, rather many can.
But we are fully experienced in how Pan arabists, nationalists, Islamists, and baathists run things and how it does lead to this poverty and ruin.


First, confessionalism doesn't work. Secondly, authoritarianism or Baathism doesn't work. Third, anarchism works.

It's a matter of ideology not race. Unfortunetly, Arabs are mainly following these ideologies.


So a majority of the population? Also they're pan Arabist not Baathist. Baathism is different.

The reason why it is true is because all other groups in Lebanon, of various races, ethnicities, and cultures all managed to get out of the poverty they were in (including Baalbek which was dead poor just 40 years ago) right after they decided to remove all these influences coming from the Arabs. And not in one specific system, but rather a whole set of systems and policies and they all succeeded.


Yeah no poverty doesn't just disappear after you stop calling yourself Arab. That's completely ridiculous.

It's like saying if you remove all the Jews then life will be great. In fact that's exactly what Nazis said.

Weird, right?


I do not trust a single word you say. Every word is just full of bias and desperation.
By Palmyrene
#15020730
@anasawad

EDIT:
Note:
Majority of poor people in Lebanon at the moment are in areas directly under Hezbollah and the future movement control, along with Palestinian camps under Hamas rule, along with the recent Syrian refugees, majority of them living in Hezbollah territories.


Dude poor people don't have one geographical area where they live. They're everywhere. Sidon or Beruit has homeless people and poor areas everywhere. Unemployment is pretty high. Things aren't great.

Yet apparently you ignore all of this to cherry pick Hezbollah or Palestinian territories and say "these are the only poor people". No, they aren't.

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