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#15030065
Palmyrene wrote:Considering that PragerU is Christian, it's about the same level.


This is actually wrong.

Dennis Prager is a Jew, and it would probably be best to describe PragerU as right wing & conservative and actively promoting what would be a general Judeo-Christian theism.

Prager is also famous for organizing trips to Israel and the likes and believes there is really a brotherhood between Jews & Christians of a conservative stripe.

There are other famous Jews in the American conservative movement that have a similar approach, namely Ben Shapiro & David Horowitz.

A very interesting case would also be Andrew Klavan: he is a Jew who converted to Christianity at age 49 I believe.

The Jews in these more hardline, orthodox conservative movements are also generally willing to go to bat for Christians in a meaningful way -- for instance, here is Dennis Prager talking about how he is not offended at all by evangelical Christians that believe he has to convert:

Evangelical Christians believe that it is necessary for a person to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. According to every liberal I know — Christian, Jew, or other — Jews are supposed to find this theology offensive and frightening. According to liberals, the evangelicals’ doctrine that no non-Christians can be saved is so awful that all other evangelical views must be held suspect — even their unique support for Jews and Israel. I would therefore like to announce, as a practicing, believing Jew, that I am in no way offended, let alone frightened, by evangelical Christians who believe that it is necessary to have faith in Jesus in order to be saved. Why should Jews not be offended by this evangelical Christian belief? First, since all non-Christians are unsaved, this doctrine is in no way anti-Jewish. It is pro-salvation, not anti-anybody. The evangelical view of who is not saved is applicable, by definition, to all non-Christians.


dennisprager.com
#15030069
Verv wrote:This is actually wrong.

Dennis Prager is a Jew, and it would probably be best to describe PragerU as right wing & conservative and actively promoting what would be a general Judeo-Christian theism.


Anything "Judeo-Christian" doesn't exist. Talk about Judeo-Christuan theism to Roger II who put all the Jews in his land on a boat with no supplies and sent them to sea to die.

Prager is also famous for organizing trips to Israel and the likes and believes there is really a brotherhood between Jews & Christians of a conservative stripe.


You mean between Evangelicals and Israelis because Evangelicals form the largest lobbying group for Israel in the US and most American Jews don't support Israel.

And there's brotherhood between all conservatives. I bet you'll find brotherhood between conservative Muslims and Christians too and rather easily I might add.

There are other famous Jews in the American conservative movement that have a similar approach, namely Ben Shapiro & David Horowitz.


You mean Ben "Has a meltdown on BBC" Shapiro?

A very interesting case would also be Andrew Klavan: he is a Jew who converted to Christianity at age 49 I believe.


Not particularly interesting.

The Jews in these more hardline, orthodox conservative movements are also generally willing to go to bat for Christians in a meaningful way -- for instance, here is Dennis Prager talking about how he is not offended at all by evangelical Christians that believe he has to convert:


That's because Evangelicals form the largest lobby for Israel.
#15030088
Rancid wrote:@Palmyrene,

Everybody is a little bit fascist.


"I'm a little bit fascist
And I'm a little bit out of control
I'm a little bit of Nuremberg and Rome
With a bit of murder in my soul
I don't know if it's good or bad
But I know I love it so
I'm a little bit esoteric
Tied up in a traditionalist bow"
#15030167
Palmyrene wrote:Anything "Judeo-Christian" doesn't exist. Talk about Judeo-Christuan theism to Roger II who put all the Jews in his land on a boat with no supplies and sent them to sea to die.



You mean between Evangelicals and Israelis because Evangelicals form the largest lobbying group for Israel in the US and most American Jews don't support Israel.

And there's brotherhood between all conservatives. I bet you'll find brotherhood between conservative Muslims and Christians too and rather easily I might add.



You mean Ben "Has a meltdown on BBC" Shapiro?



Not particularly interesting.



That's because Evangelicals form the largest lobby for Israel.


Oh, man. No one is going to believe you are 15 if you keep making posts like this that are so tired.

(1) We all know that Judeo-Christian is a very recently developed term that was likely spearheaded by Jews who wished to diminish their differences with the majority of Americans and ingratiate themselves. It is generally also used to denote a sort of pan-conservative alliance between Jews & Christians.

(2) (From 2011)

The poll of over 1,000 American Jews, conducted on May 16 and 17 by Frank Luntz of Frank Luntz Global, on behalf of the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, shows commitment to Israel and its right to self-defense, and fear for its security.

...

Ninety-four percent of respondents said that if Israel “no longer existed tomorrow,” they would feel that was a tragedy, with nearly one in four saying they would consider such an event to be the “biggest tragedy of my lifetime.”

Eighty-five percent said that Israel is “right to take threats to its existence seriously,” and that Israel’s concerns are not irrational or overstated.

“Some news media accounts have tended to amplify a vocal fringe in the American Jewish community that espouses extreme views and politics far out of the mainstream,” Levin said. “This poll clarifies what American Jews actually feel and believe.”


Jerusalem Post

(3) Brotherhood between all conservative? Yeah, sure, IDK. Perhaps. To differing degrees. Sometimes. On some things. With some people. Sometimes yes, sometimes, no. Sometimes, until a goal is met, there is a unity, and then the unity might dissipate.

What if... politics in 1955 was just two different conservative factions fighting each other. IDK.

Brotherhood. What is brotherhood.

Men who like each other and no inna'couse, you know what I'm saying? Can't have brotherhood with inna'couse.

(4) Oh yeah, I saw that one. That's the guy.

I do not think that he lost all credibility or that it was incredibly bad. He did misplay it, though, and he normally doesn't.

(5) America is 2% Jewish. Evangelicals make up something like a quarter of Americans, and they are generally all conservative. Many atheist American conservatives are also pro-Israel.

... Hard for American evangelicals to NOT be the biggest support base for Israel.

Who else would it be?

American Catholics?
#15030169
Verv wrote:Oh, man. No one is going to believe you are 15 if you keep making posts like this that are so tired.


?

(1) We all know that Judeo-Christian is a very recently developed term that was likely spearheaded by Jews who wished to diminish their differences with the majority of Americans and ingratiate themselves. It is generally also used to denote a sort of pan-conservative alliance between Jews & Christians.


Apparently we don't because I've seen people refer to the "Judeo-Christian" tradition as if it actually existed.

Furthermore it was not created by Jews to "integrate themselves into America". The term "Judæo Christian" first appears in a letter from Alexander McCaul which is dated October 17, 1821.

In this case the term referred to Jewish converts to Christianity. The term was similarly used by Joseph Wolff in 1829, in reference to a type of church that would observe some Jewish traditions in order to convert Jews.

Use of the German term Judenchristlich ("Jewish-Christian"), in a decidedly negative sense, can be found in the writings of Friedrich Nietzsche, who emphasized what he believed were neglected aspects of continuity between the Jewish and Christian world views.

The concept of Judeo-Christian ethics or Judeo-Christian values in an ethical (rather than a theological or liturgical) sense was used by George Orwell in 1939, along with the phrase "the Judaeo-Christian scheme of morals."

Theologian and author Arthur A. Cohen, in The Myth of the Judeo-Christian Tradition, questioned the theological validity of the Judeo-Christian concept and suggested that it was essentially an invention of American politics.

So you're wrong.

Jerusalem Post


Really? You're going to be posting a poll from 2011? Before the Gaza massacre and all the other shit which made Jews dislike Israel?

(3) Brotherhood between all conservative? Yeah, sure, IDK. Perhaps. To differing degrees. Sometimes. On some things. With some people. Sometimes yes, sometimes, no. Sometimes, until a goal is met, there is a unity, and then the unity might dissipate.


You really just don't like brown people. I find that this is the only reason you don't like Muslim conservatives.


(4) Oh yeah, I saw that one. That's the guy.

I do not think that he lost all credibility or that it was incredibly bad. He did misplay it, though, and he normally doesn't.


He's already lost credibility several times. This was just the wake up call. It was a time where you absolutely couldn't pretend the other person was misinterpreting his words. It showed who Ben Shapiro really was.

(5) America is 2% Jewish. Evangelicals make up something like a quarter of Americans, and they are generally all conservative. Many atheist American conservatives are also pro-Israel.

... Hard for American evangelicals to NOT be the biggest support base for Israel.

Who else would it be?

American Catholics?


Evangelicals still form the biggest lobby so I'm not sure what any of this has to do with it.
#15030172
(1) The first uses you brought out were all different -- academic in nature, or of a narrow, specific scope.

Judeo-Christian used to refer to some broad, referenced theme of our common heritage together is a recent development.

And, no, I do not think that it is valid. In fact, I think you have read me write about why I do not think it is valid.

(2) I don't like brown people? :lol: What do you base this on?

You have no idea who I am in my real life and if you could see how I lived you would be blown away.

(3) OK, so what are the recent polls on American Jews and whether or not they believe Israel should exist? Maybe American Jews are not fond of the current government that barely won election, but I would imagine that the bulk of American jews still overwhelmingly believe Israel should exist.

(4) I think your implication was that American Jews do not support Israel so much (as you stated again), and that Israel is some monster of American evangelicals.

I pointed out that Jews are an extreme minority in the US -- it'd be impossible for them to make up the majority of any popular opinion in the US because they, by themselves, cannot even make up a twentieth of the American people's opinions.
#15030179
Verv wrote:(1) The first uses you brought out were all different -- academic in nature, or of a narrow, specific scope.


It's literally the origins of the term. Like it or not, these are the facts.

Judeo-Christian used to refer to some broad, referenced theme of our common heritage together is a recent development.


It isn't. Nietzsche talked about it and others before him did too.

And, no, I do not think that it is valid. In fact, I think you have read me write about why I do not think it is valid.


No I don't.

(2) I don't like brown people? :lol: What do you base this on?


Your large hesistance towards accepting Muslim conservatives.

You have no idea who I am in my real life and if you could see how I lived you would be blown away.


Don't give yourself too much credit.

(3) OK, so what are the recent polls on American Jews and whether or not they believe Israel should exist? Maybe American Jews are not fond of the current government that barely won election, but I would imagine that the bulk of American jews still overwhelmingly believe Israel should exist.


No they wouldn't. I don't have the polls now but I'll get them tomorrow.

(4) I think your implication was that American Jews do not support Israel so much (as you stated again), and that Israel is some monster of American evangelicals.


No, it was that American Jews generally do not support Israel and Evangelicals form the largest lobbyist group. Reading any more into it is on you not me.

I pointed out that Jews are an extreme minority in the US -- it'd be impossible for them to make up the majority of any popular opinion in the US because they, by themselves, cannot even make up a twentieth of the American people's opinions.


Irrelevant.
#15030181
Palmyrene wrote:Your large hesistance towards accepting Muslim conservatives.


I’d appreciate clarification on this: are you saying Verv is racist because he doesn’t agree with and or promote conservative Muslim ideologies (Salafism, etc), or are you saying you think it’s wrong/racist to not accept/tolerate Muslim conservative viewpoints?
#15030183
Bulaba Jones wrote:I’d appreciate clarification on this: are you saying Verv is racist because he doesn’t agree with and or promote conservative Muslim ideologies (Salafism, etc), or are you saying you think it’s wrong/racist to not accept/tolerate Muslim conservative viewpoints?


The latter. If he's all about "brotherhood between conservatives" he should have no problem with Muslim ones.
#15030188
Palmyrene wrote:The latter. If he's all about "brotherhood between conservatives" he should have no problem with Muslim ones.


I don’t recall Verv saying he accepts everyone who calls themselves conservative. If I meet a group of people I might feel a connection to them, regardless of our differences, but I certainty wouldn’t feel or want brotherhood with one among them who is, say, a Salafist, nor would saying “brotherhood of” imply automatic association with anyone who might remotely qualify, and certainly isn’t a blanket statement.
#15030201
(1) Let's say that the term 'Hindu-Buddhist' started to become a more important concept because some regional scholars were talking about how Theraveda Buddhism & Hinduism actually share a lot of the same root and can be cooperative, and there was a general coalition between Hindu & Buddhist countries in the region (India, Nepal, Bhutan, Myanmar, Sri Lanka)to kind of counter Islam (Pakistan, Bangladesh)...

We could find scholars who had used the term "Hindu-Buddhist" in reference to perhaps some of the Kingdoms in Bengal and Orissa, or in reference to specific art forms or even language.

The very first use would probably be way-back-when.

Yet, the first time that people began talking about it as "Hindu-Buddhist" to denote some unity between Hindus & Theraveda Buddhists would be far different than an art historian talking about the mushroom-esque temples of Orissa or a scholar specifically talking about Hindu-Buddhist intersections in Vaishnava & Pali texts... Right?

So somoene saying "Judeo-Christian" in terms of having a Judaic Christian liturgy in the 19th century isn't what we mean when Dennis PRager talks about Judeo-Christian, and the more specialized use of Judeo-Christian by Nietzsche in his own philosophy is also not being what is invokved by Prager, even if there is significant overlap...

(2) I am skeptical of accepting mainstream Republicans as part of some "brotherhodo of conservatives" with me.

I am skeptical of Libertarians. I am skeptical of Neocons. I am skeptical of hard classical liberal style American conservatives. I am skeptical of British conservatives that would be anywhere to the left of Nigel Farage.

... and as Bulaba pointed out, if we are talking about some conservative Sunnis and Salafists, I do not know what i would have in common with them.

My friend's parents, conservative Shi'ites from Iran, got along perfectly with me. We talked a lot about politics and religion, and their critique of the West is probaly very similar to a lot of my own... I would welcome some degree of brotherhood with them because I know they also believe in secularism to some level and also because we actually have similar "civilizational" takes...

But what partly enables this sort of brotherhood is that we don't actually live in the same country. :lol:

I will say this:

There are millions of Orthodox Christians in Ethiopia & India & the Middle East that I share an awful lot in common with and we have a profound brotherhood that is far beyond what I would have in common with bloody Mitt Romney.

(3) I look forward to the polls?

Have a good one.
#15030246
Bulaba Jones wrote:I don’t recall Verv saying he accepts everyone who calls themselves conservative. If I meet a group of people I might feel a connection to them, regardless of our differences, but I certainty wouldn’t feel or want brotherhood with one among them who is, say, a Salafist, nor would saying “brotherhood of” imply automatic association with anyone who might remotely qualify, and certainly isn’t a blanket statement.


Well that's what he said.
#15030250
Verv wrote:(1) Let's say that the term 'Hindu-Buddhist' started to become a more important concept because some regional scholars were talking about how Theraveda Buddhism & Hinduism actually share a lot of the same root and can be cooperative, and there was a general coalition between Hindu & Buddhist countries in the region (India, Nepal, Bhutan, Myanmar, Sri Lanka)to kind of counter Islam (Pakistan, Bangladesh)...

We could find scholars who had used the term "Hindu-Buddhist" in reference to perhaps some of the Kingdoms in Bengal and Orissa, or in reference to specific art forms or even language.

The very first use would probably be way-back-when.

Yet, the first time that people began talking about it as "Hindu-Buddhist" to denote some unity between Hindus & Theraveda Buddhists would be far different than an art historian talking about the mushroom-esque temples of Orissa or a scholar specifically talking about Hindu-Buddhist intersections in Vaishnava & Pali texts... Right?


1. Talks of unity were expressed before and earlier so your entire narrative is irrelevant. And your issue was that the term Judeo-Christian was invented by American Jews to assimilate which is wrong.

2. This is an entire made up story you made specifically obfuscate what is clearly a simple issue.

So somoene saying "Judeo-Christian" in terms of having a Judaic Christian liturgy in the 19th century isn't what we mean when Dennis PRager talks about Judeo-Christian, and the more specialized use of Judeo-Christian by Nietzsche in his own philosophy is also not being what is invokved by Prager, even if there is significant overlap...


Doesn't matter. Judeo-Christian was not made by Jews in America wanting to assimilate.

(2) I am skeptical of accepting mainstream Republicans as part of some "brotherhodo of conservatives" with me.

I am skeptical of Libertarians. I am skeptical of Neocons. I am skeptical of hard classical liberal style American conservatives. I am skeptical of British conservatives that would be anywhere to the left of Nigel Farage.


Oh so you feel brotherhood towards fascists then.

... and as Bulaba pointed out, if we are talking about some conservative Sunnis and Salafists, I do not know what i would have in common with them.


They're fascists to the right of Nigel Farage.

You seem to just not like conservative Muslims because they're brown or Arab or whatever.

I feel like Bulaba made a mistake when treating you with some sort of charitability.

My friend's parents, conservative Shi'ites from Iran, got along perfectly with me. We talked a lot about politics and religion, and their critique of the West is probaly very similar to a lot of my own... I would welcome some degree of brotherhood with them because I know they also believe in secularism to some level and also because we actually have similar "civilizational" takes...

But what partly enables this sort of brotherhood is that we don't actually live in the same country. :lol:


Salafists don't live in the same country as you.

I will say this:

There are millions of Orthodox Christians in Ethiopia & India & the Middle East that I share an awful lot in common with and we have a profound brotherhood that is far beyond what I would have in common with bloody Mitt Romney.


Uh huh. So you don't like Salafist and Muslim conservatives because they're Muslim but Orthodox Christians of literally any ideological stripe are perfectly fine because they're Christian.

(3) I look forward to the polls?

Have a good one.


I couldn't find them. I'll keep looking but I'm not sure where I first found it. Somewhere on reddit prolly.
#15030635
Found a poll that might interest you:

The data show that despite Trump's commentary, Jews in the U.S. are both highly likely to identify as Democrats and vote for Democratic candidates and to express views that are highly loyal to Israel. There is little evidence of a change in these trends, or that this situation creates the kind of Jewish cognitive dissonance that Trump asserts should be the case.

...

My recent review of the available data shows that about nine in 10 American Jews are more sympathetic to Israel than to the Palestinians. (That compares to about six in 10 of all Americans.) Additionally, 95% of Jews have favorable views of Israel, while 10% have favorable views of the Palestinian Authority -- significantly more pro-Israel than the overall national averages of 71% favorable views of Israel and 21% favorable views of the Palestinian Authority.

Research conducted in 2013 by Pew showed that 76% of Jews (identified by religion) said they were at least somewhat emotionally attached to Israel. In addition, almost half said that caring about Israel is an essential part of being Jewish (with most of the rest saying it is important although not essential) and nearly half reported that they had personally traveled to Israel.


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