[ckaihatsu]

Also, @Unthinking Majority, technology should be prevented from returning by any means possible and necessary, obviously. It's just a practical matter whether how it would be done, although it'd require some anti-technology technology, I'm afraid.

I think you're describing the *Green* ideology here (anti-consumer-technology) -- Qatzel is basically a Green.


Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals

Spoiler: show

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In my opinion it'd be the Cuban model all along because they could never reach their virtual endgame, such as being gorillas again, so they'd never quit their struggle against technology, like Socialists can never stop class struggle because they can never reach their virtual endgame (communism) as well.

Ehhhh, you're being *fatalistic* about socialism itself, like wat0n, not that I think *Stalinism* is an adequate *substitute* for workers-of-the-world socialism.

Some people just happen to be comfortable being under the arm's-length embrace of corporatism / state capitalism / community, and they give their politics over to that localism.

Stalinists aren't Greens, though -- they're anti-consumer-technology for the sake of their own *power*, and not due to some naturalistic *ideology*.

[Beren]

Qatzel is basically a Green.

No, he's a Primitivist with a plan, although I wonder if he's summarised his ideas in an organised form such as a book or something. I'd consider him Khmer Rouge rather than a Green.

[ckaihatsu]

No, he's a Primitivist with a plan, although I wonder if he's summarised his ideas in an organised form such as a book or something. I'd consider him Khmer Rouge rather than a Green.

Oh, okay, that sounds pretty accurate.

[ckaihatsu]

Kirk Ouimet: Are you glad the Big Bang happened?

Wise Being: I am the Big Bang, so yes, I think it happened because it had to happen.

Busted! Fancy chatterbot.


= D

[ckaihatsu]

(It's funny because in reality *I'm* the Big Bang.)

[Unthinking Majority]

In my opinion it'd be the Cuban model all along because they could never reach their virtual endgame, such as being gorillas again, so they'd never quit their struggle against technology, like Socialists can never stop class struggle because they can never reach their virtual endgame (communism) as well.

Communism needs a dictatorship until worldwide communism comes and erases all borders and governments. Since that will never happen, dictatorships forever!

[ckaihatsu]

Communism needs a dictatorship until worldwide communism comes and erases all borders and governments. Since that will never happen, dictatorships forever!

Or, more to the point, the U.S. *cultivates* dictators, so Cuba now isn't really of a concern to them. Ditto for North Korea, the Philippines, Singapore, etc. Trump loves dictators.

[Unthinking Majority]

Or, more to the point, the U.S. *cultivates* dictators, so Cuba now isn't really of a concern to them. Ditto for North Korea, the Philippines, Singapore, etc. Trump loves dictators.

It's always someone else's fault. Nobody is ever responsible for their own actions. Why do that when you can blame someone else! Eastern Europe is busy trying to make political opposition figures disappear. That's not America's fault.

I think there's different variables. Some of them are outside influences, like as you say re: the US being an ass and doing regime change, and some of them internal.

[Beren]

Communism needs a dictatorship until worldwide communism comes and erases all borders and governments. Since that will never happen, dictatorships forever!

With AI on the doorstep we're still closer to a Communist than a Qatzian utopia, although the latter one is rather a dystopia to anyone but Qatzians themselves. That's why they have to scare us with extinction, because that's the only thing considered even worse than their primitive agrarianism, which we would only try to avoid extinction indeed. But we'll rather have AI tell us what to do to keep our civilization going.

[ckaihatsu]

It's always someone else's fault. Nobody is ever responsible for their own actions. Why do that when you can blame someone else! Eastern Europe is busy trying to make political opposition figures disappear. That's not America's fault.

You're not being clear in what you're referring to here.

You're also unclear in what you mean *politically*.

I think there's different variables. Some of them are outside influences, like as you say re: the US being an ass and doing regime change, and some of them internal.

Not only does the U.S. do regime change in other countries, it *teaches* other countries how to do regime change in other countries:

Accusations toward the School of the Americas

The School of the Americas has been blamed for human rights violations committed by former students.[36][62][63]

By the early 1980s, Latin American critics accused the school of teaching techniques of repression to be used toward civilians.[64] American officers rejected the criticism, arguing that the training prevented abuse toward civilians.[64]

According to the Center for International Policy, "The School of the Americas had been questioned for years, as it trained many military personnel before and during the years of the 'national security doctrine' – the dirty war years in the Southern Cone and the civil war years in Central America – in which the armed forces within several Latin American countries ruled or had disproportionate government influence and committed serious human rights violations in those countries."[citation needed] SOA and WHINSEC graduates continue to surface in news reports regarding current human rights; most Argentine military graduates are currently in prison for crimes against humanity and genocide.

The institute itself explicitly denies accusations of teaching torture: in 1999 the School of the Americas FAQ had several answers denying accusations of torture, such as "Q: What about the accusations that the School teaches torture and murder? A: Absolutely false. The School teaches U.S. Army doctrine which is based on over 200 years of success, and includes a variety of military subjects, none of which include criminal misconduct."[10] WHINSEC says that its curriculum includes human rights,[65] and that "no school should be held accountable for the actions of its graduates."[65]

Human Rights Watch says that "training alone, even when it includes human rights instruction, does not prevent human rights abuses."[62]

SOA Watch

Main article: School of the Americas Watch

Since 1990, Washington, DC,-based nonprofit human rights organization School of the Americas Watch has worked to monitor graduates of the institution and to close the former SOA, now WHINSEC, through legislative action, grassroots organizing and nonviolent direct action.[66] It maintains a database with graduates of both the SOA and WHINSEC who have been accused of human rights violations and other criminal activity.[67] In regard to the renaming of the institution, SOA Watch claims that the approach taken by the Department of Defense is not grounded in any critical assessment of the training, procedures, performance, or results (consequences) of the training programs of the SOA. According to critics of the SOA, the name change ignores congressional concern and public outcry over the SOA's past and present link to human rights atrocities.[68]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_H ... e_Americas

[QatzelOk]

With AI on the doorstep we're still closer to a Communist than a Qatzian utopia, ...

Who is "we" in this statement? Are you including yourself?

Because once all productive work is automized (by technology), the very rich will have very little use for the rest of humanity. The "rest of humanity" will become a major liability. So you and I will be killed (by technology) just before automation.

Likewise, "electric batteries for all" will require a lot of dead Bolivians, just like "cheap gas for all" required millions of dead and homeless Arabs.

Your "dream" of a perfect world (by technology) of machines... is someone else's dream that was installed in your head by mass media(by technology).

Even your mind has been outsourced (by technology) to the oligarchs - with its opinions, its metaphoric understanding of the world around itself, its feelings, its (ostensibly)"instinctive" reactions. What hope is there for an animal whose natural opinions about survival have been removed (by technology)?

Woof, woof?

[Beren]

Who is "we" in this statement? Are you including yourself?

Well, "we" always includes "myself" and it's supposed to mean mankind, including myself. However, I merely say a Qatzian utopia is still less likely to happen than a Communist utopia is, not that any of them certainly happens.

[QatzelOk]

... I merely say a Qatzian utopia is still less likely to happen than a Communist utopia is, not that any of them certainly happens.

If any utopia that doesn't pay tribute to the masters of Western Culture begins, it will quickly be destroyed or starved to death by the masters of Western Culture.

So the best you can hope for is a temporay respite from the current propaganda straight-jacket. But most of the tech of the last few thousand years was invented to make sure that you and I can never leave our straight-jackets of behaviorism. (AKA Disciplinary institutions, of which COVID and 911 are recent examples)

And it's virtually impossible to save oneself while being constrained in this way.

[Beren]

However, @QatzelOk, Communists only ask people to take control over their civilization and fate and change direction, which should be rather trivial for them to do anyway, while Qatzians ask them to get rid of everything they have and make a U-turn, which they wouldn't do even if they could, no matter how much you scare them (an almost 8 billion strong species and still counting) with extinction, which makes Qatzism an even bigger loser and less worth pursuing than Communism. With AI on the doorstep they especially won't be willing to follow you, even if you believe it should be the ultimate reason for mankind to go Qatzian finally.

Maybe you should rather consider Communism a prerequisite for Qatzism, in the sense at least that Communists would be more inclined than Capitalists to leave you alone in reservations or your own "countries".

[QatzelOk]

However, [usermention=1413]...while Qatzians ask them to ...

I'm not sure if "Qatzians" have a program yet.

So far, there aren't very many of them, and they mostly just read trolling about how suicidal the current "direction of progress" is. But as far as I know, Qatz (me) hasn't proposed either a program or practices. Other than riding a bike and being a vegetarian, and rejection of baseless ideologies that only serve to empower new technologies.

And if I ever do propose a "solution" to the precarious dangers that technologies have created, it WON'T be more technology. That is all Qatzians have to work with so far.

[Beren]

I'm not sure if "Qatzians" have a program yet. But as far as I know, Qatz (me) hasn't proposed either a program or practices.

Maybe you haven't proposed a program explicitly, but it's there in your posts implicitly. Or have I invented the whole thing from thin air perhaps?

[QatzelOk]

Maybe you haven't proposed a program explicitly, but it's there in your posts implicitly. Or have I invented the whole thing from thin air perhaps?

Not from thin air.

But perhaps the answers to the Tech-Poisoning of everything is in all of us, in the instincts we've been sublimating for thousands of years.

I hope so. I hope this sublimation (another technology) hasn't finished us off for good.

[Beren]

Not from thin air.

But perhaps the answers to the Tech-Poisoning of everything is in all of us, in the instincts we've been sublimating for thousands of years.

Or maybe I just produced an ideology for you from the material (posts) you brought here.

[ckaihatsu]

Um, so no mining asteroids, then?


= (


= )

[QatzelOk]

Um, so no mining asteroids, then?

The only types of humans who "thrived and lead" for the technological part of human history are those with a lot of chutzpah.

I am using this in the original Hebrew meaning of the word, which was entirely negative.

(An example of this kind of chutzpah would be someone who breaks into your house to rob you, and then stabs you when you catch him. But then afterwards, he hires a lawyer to sue you for the shock you gave him by turning the light on and catching him, and for the blood-stains to his clothing that this shock caused him (the victim).)

The original word describes someone who has no empathy for other people at all, and can thus be ruthless and uncaring in all of his transactions with other humans. This is perfect for introducing potentially toxic technologies to make lots of money for yourself. Zero empathy.

So some of our recent technologies - suburbia, cars, mass media - reduce the empathy for other humans dramatically.

This is why we are so stupid now, as well as so docile. We lost our empathy to the point of being inable to live in communities, and are losing even more of our empathy to the point that future humans - if they exist - might live with no friends, community, or trust in anything other than their computer and employer. Perfect fascism.

Thank you, technology and the chutzpah it takes to play russian roulette with human survival?