[Jeremiah Squatpump]

Perhaps Noemon is making it too complicated. At the core of it all:
If Liberal Democracies make a mistake then it will get self corrected fast.
If China makes a mistake then it won't get self corrected because alternative opinions are suppressed and you have to follow the party line.

This is an oversimplification. So I hope you or @Igor Antunov or @Fasces can at least try to address this problem

Liberal democracies have been making mistakes for decades. Laissez-faire capitalism, multiculturalism, the European Union … And they are not being corrected because the idea of a liberal ideology comes before reality. In which country has multiculturalism worked? Which countries in the EU are booming?

If China makes a mistake it can be corrected because they’re using capitalism to fund society, not to try and build a socialist utopia. That’s up to the CCP and so they have to have a firm grip on reality and not go wandering off into liberalism and fantasies of utopian equality. China is booming, the west is declining; now you have to decide whether liberal freedom is worth it.

[JohnRawls]

The default method by which liberal democracies rectify severe and existential mistakes is by ceasing to be liberal democracies until the crisis passes.

My view is that Western liberalism, as it currently exists, will be unable to cope with any of the severe crisis that it will face in the next two centuries. The coronavirus pandemic was a preview of that. It is fundamentally flawed in the assumptions it makes about the world and the political elite won't be able to transition to an environment of economic contraction/stagnation, of needing sustainable development, of scarcity of fundamental goods such as food or water, and so on.

They will be subsumed by China for a century or two, provided that the Western political elite cannot strangle the nascent China in the cradle (and I think it already failed to do so) because China will be much more able to navigate this period of history. It has taken the best from the Western system and the best from its own systems to produce the current one. They are more organized, more collectively minded, and more technologically, economically and politically dynamic.

Much like the Qing before them, or Rome, sometimes external pressures and forces are required to create the conditions that make systemic and foundational change possible. Like all cycles of thesis and antithesis, the Global South learned from the West, and in turn the West will learn from the Global South, which will dominate the next two or three centuries. What comes next for the West is not liberalism in its current form, but will be an improvement on it/evolution of it, and the cycle will continue.

In the meantime, I'd rather we try to avoid unnecessary destruction by bowing down to the suicidal gambits of a Western political and economic elite that can't let go.

Your whole argument is that Liberal Democracies can't cope with their mistakes or fundamental mistakes. My whole argument is that Liberal Democracy is better because it copes and adapts any kind of changes quick and fast. You work on a fundamentally different premise from me. I am not sure if we can come to an understanding if our fundamentals are so different in this regard. Basically time will tell.

@Jeremiah Squatpump

This is the strength of Liberal Democracy. Pluralism of opinions and views. So if we find certain views superior then we can adapt it. As i said, Liberal Democracy is inherently unstable system due to that but it is also a system that is very quick at accepting and adapting to change or correcting mistakes. Liberal Democracy has to proove its value to the society every 4-5 years and goes through a process of political darwinism of sorts while authoritarian and totalitarian systems lack this process to a large degree.

[Jeremiah Squatpump]

Your whole argument is that Liberal Democracies can't cope with their mistakes or fundamental mistakes. My whole argument is that Liberal Democracy is better because it copes and adapts any kind of changes quick and fast. You work on a fundamentally different premise from me. I am not sure if we can come to an understanding if our fundamentals are so different in this regard. Basically time will tell.

@Jeremiah Squatpump

This is the strength of Liberal Democracy. Pluralism of opinions and views. So if we find certain views superior then we can adapt it. As i said, Liberal Democracy is inherently unstable system due to that but it is also a system that is very quick at accepting and adapting to change or correcting mistakes. Liberal Democracy has to proove its value to the society every 4-5 years and goes through a process of political darwinism of sorts while authoritarian and totalitarian systems lack this process to a large degree.

Multiculturalism and liberalism isn’t a strength, it’s a weakness. It’s not about your opinions and views, it’s about those of others who have told you the type of society you WILL have. You can’t change anything. If you go out into the street in Britain and preach Christianity or argue against multiculturalism you’re likely to get arrested. In Germany home schooling is banned; you must get your share of indoctrination in a state school. In Sweden they have an ‘Internet police’ to control dissent. It doesn’t matter who you vote in, they’re all using the same ideology. Over time this produces the indoctrination that everything is good and everywhere else is bad.

[JohnRawls]

Multiculturalism and liberalism isn’t a strength, it’s a weakness. It’s not about your opinions and views, it’s about those of others who have told you the type of society you WILL have. You can’t change anything. If you go out into the street in Britain and preach Christianity or argue against multiculturalism you’re likely to get arrested. In Germany home schooling is banned; you must get your share of indoctrination in a state school. In Sweden they have an ‘Internet police’ to control dissent. It doesn’t matter who you vote in, they’re all using the same ideology. Over time this produces the indoctrination that everything is good and everywhere else is bad.

And here you start showing your true colours. This is blatantly untrue for almost 100% of what you said. You are projecting a view that somebody implanted in to your brain via propaganda on to reality. It doesn't mean though that it doesn't happen at all, it just happens to such small extent that it literally doesn't matter.

[Rancid]

And here you start showing your true colours. This is blatantly untrue for almost 100% of what you said. You are projecting a view that somebody implanted in to your brain via propaganda on to reality. It doesn't mean though that it doesn't happen at all, it just happens to such small extent that it literally doesn't matter.

I'm telling you, he sounds like some sort of commercial. He's a paid agent.

[noemon]

I'm telling you, he sounds like some sort of commercial. He's a paid agent.

I highly doubt that, he is a typical English Brexiteer parroting Farage. They're a dime a dozen. The Scottish Potemkin and the Welsh Heisenberg who are most likely not representative of Scots and Welsh either have skewed your perception of Britons.

[Jeremiah Squatpump]

And here you start showing your true colours. This is blatantly untrue for almost 100% of what you said. You are projecting a view that somebody implanted in to your brain via propaganda on to reality. It doesn't mean though that it doesn't happen at all, it just happens to such small extent that it literally doesn't matter.

You’re free to Google all that I said. It matters.

I'm telling you, he sounds like some sort of commercial. He's a paid agent.

A paid agent? Don’t be so paranoid. No, and I don’t elect US Presidents either.

I highly doubt that, he is a typical English Brexiteer parroting Farage. They're a dime a dozen. The Scottish Potemkin and the Welsh Heisenberg who are most likely not representative of Scots and Welsh either have skewed your perception of Britons.

Not keen on Farage either. Too cozy with the Americans. I’m independent, don’t fit in with stereotype mainstream and so sound odd to those that have fallen for indoctrination.

I’ve been about too much to fall for the mainstream media. I know what the EU is. I know empire building when I see it. I know what cultural Marxism is. I’ll still be laughing when you’re standing two meters apart and muzzled under the watchful eye of the police and Covid Marshalls, unemployed in a gig-economy and telling each other you have freedom. I’m not alone, people are demonstrating all over Europe asking what happened to freedom. As I’ve said elsewhere, the screws are beginning to tighten.

[Jeremiah Squatpump]

Don’t you find it just a bit odd that someone who is against a police state is a paid agent for a police state? Or that if even if a former General Secretary of the USSR and a Soviet dissident tell you that the EU is a re-creation of the USSR, you think it’s not? Or that mass-immigration which was said to be good for Europe has been unsuccessful everywhere it’s been tried but it’s still a good idea?
The EU have had decades to work on you and for some it’s all you’ve ever known. You see videos that show you that the EU is a gravy train for the political elite and you still cheer them on even while you watch Europe slowly collapsing. We live in a low wage gig-economy, muzzled and watched and you’re cheering for it? Now that’s indoctrination.

[JohnRawls]

Don’t you find it just a bit odd that someone who is against a police state is a paid agent for a police state? Or that if even if a former General Secretary of the USSR and a Soviet dissident tell you that the EU is a re-creation of the USSR, you think it’s not? Or that mass-immigration which was said to be good for Europe has been unsuccessful everywhere it’s been tried but it’s still a good idea?
The EU have had decades to work on you and for some it’s all you’ve ever known. You see videos that show you that the EU is a gravy train for the political elite and you still cheer them on even while you watch Europe slowly collapsing. We live in a low wage gig-economy, muzzled and watched and you’re cheering for it? Now that’s indoctrination.

You are re-using the usual buzz words here. What is funny though that the things that you apparently stand against in the EU are even worse in China. Yet you defend China for some reason. So apparently EU is a authoritarian recreation of the USSR while China is what exactly? It is also funny to hear your comments on "cultural" marxism in regards to China and Eu

[B0ycey]

What is funny though that the things that you apparently stand against in the EU are even worse in China. Yet you defend China for some reason. So apparently EU is a authoritarian recreation of the USSR while China is what exactly?

John has a valid point here @Jeremiah Squatpump. You have written a post that says democracy is dead and a one party system is better, another that we should embrace Chinese authoritarian system and then you complain that the EU is an authoritarian state that isn't democratic and that we should be weary of that. Surely by your own logic you should be pro EU?

[Jeremiah Squatpump]

John has a valid point here @Jeremiah Squatpump. You have written a post that says democracy is dead and a one party system is better, another that we should embrace Chinese authoritarian system and then you complain that the EU is an authoritarian state that isn't democratic and that we should be weary of that. Surely by your own logic you should be pro EU?

No, I’ve never said a one party state is good. What I’ve said is one party state or not, China has managed capitalism better than those using capitalism for personal gain in the west. On the other hand I’ve been told the one party EU is democratic and we should be grateful to be led by what is by any stretch of the imagination, a political elite.

I once had a conversation with a Chinese teacher. I asked him what he taught and he said ‘politic.’ I corrected him and told him it was plural, ‘politics.’ He said, ‘No, there’s only one politic, communism.’ I didn’t push it and knew it was indoctrination. Yet although that was common among the older generation, the younger ones were quite westernized in a conservative sort of way.

Many believe that indoctrination only happens in dictatorships, it doesn’t. In my encounters, North Korea stood way, way above anything else. This was like going into a virtual Alice in Wonderland! Behind North Korea come the Americans. Getting into a conversation with an original real life Trumpie is mind boggling. In third place come the EU lot who have convinced themselves that an elite led organization is going to socially engineer liberalism and equality. We’re all going to join hands in a socialist utopia stuff. Some might say, what about the communists in Soviet times? No, the majority knew what was happening and just played along. I’m not speaking of playing the game, but those who buy into beliefs as reality.

It happens and the west isn’t the first to go through it. Those who have lived under communism and in dictatorships recognize it instantly. In 2014, the EU spent €3.9 billion (yes billion) on (propaganda) promoting itself. It’s not a secret. That amount of money has the potential to influence many minds and has done. I’m listening to it now.