[Patrickov]

QatzelOk uttering those words has no effect because he has no credibility, B0ycey uttering them is far worse.

I would be angry at the former because I know full-hand what the former would mean.

If the latter was meaning that at least he hid it very well.

I will slip whatever arguments I feel like whether you like them or not.

And I had three assumptions:
1. I was merely expressing a legitimate opinion on an argument quoting my words.
2. We were not debating on forum administration matters.
3. We were debating without the need of taking caution because of my counterpart's power.

My apologies if any of the above is wrong.

... and the shit has hit the fan big time in Myanmar which is another recent event happening. Yet apart from a few comments here and there, we don't seem to interested there either.

China (and Russia) at least enabled, if not directly endorsed, that.

[B0ycey]

And more than that you are openly saying that we should not do anything to China, you are also saying that our factories should not even leave China.

No, I said that such action isn't without consequence and as such this tri-union is merely rhetoric. In fact I would prefer factories to come home and that has nothing to do with politics. A nation should be self reliant and the importance of this was showcased during the pandemic when everyone was fighting for Chinese PPE ironically.

But even so, what action are you calling for from this tri-union noemon? Sanctions on diplomats or economic sanctions? Because currently Chinese calculations has resulted in a mutual diplomatic sanctions which doesn't mean much to anyone.

Can you please tell me explicitly and clearly what policy would you support against Trump and his regime if he did this:

The same I would say with every nation that does this. Reduce dependence on that nation so condemnation actually means something. The UK cannot win a war against America and it can't win one against China either. What they can do is not make deals with regimes that don't align with Western values. But again I wouldn't just sever ties. I would just look for new trade partners because economic hardship is a thing and voters aren't going to care about diplomatics if inflation shoots up. Sometimes politics means you have to shake hands with the devil, but it doesn't mean you should be dependent on him. But less on me, what about you. What do you want to see? Or what are you prepared to suffer for this belief?

[noemon]

No, I said that such action isn't without consequence and as such this tri-union is merely rhetoric. In fact I would prefer factories to come home and that has nothing to do with politics. A nation should be self reliant and the importance of this was showcased during the pandemic when everyone was fighting for Chinese PPE ironically.
But even so, what action are you calling for from this tri-union noemon? Sanctions on diplomats or economic sanctions? Because currently Chinese calculations has resulted in a mutual diplomatic sanctions which doesn't mean much to anyone.

I call for an organised and total decoupling from China. What Rancid already described in this thread.

Several times in PoFo for a very very long time now.

Or what are you prepared to suffer for this belief?

For my freedom. My life. What kind of life is worth living as a slave? In fact any person that is not willing to do this cannot be called a real human(anthropos) in our vocabulary, they are called animals, zo-on, literally just a 'living thing'. Being just a 'living thing' gets one the animal badge, which in Latin means exactly the same too. To be human, you need to tilt up(ano-throskon/anthropos) and look beyond the horizon.

Thourios 1797 and current anthem:

Kalytera mias horas eleutheri zoin
para saranta chronia sklavia kai phylaki

A single hour of freedom is better than 40 years of slavery.



This is the first thing we learn as toddlers.

[Rancid]

New data coming out this morning is saying that US manufacturing activity is at the highest its been since 1983. Don't know if that's a blip or sign of a larger trend.

I know some like @Patrickov would like to see some sort of intervention, and that the inaction on Myanmar is disappointing. However, I think he and others like him need to understand that the west (especially the US) over the last 50-70 years has historically become mired in numerous interventions throughout history (some well intentioned, and many not). The general populace of the US is tired of trying to be the world police and being hated for it. The general population is tried of being thrown into conflicts based on lies wrapped in humanitarianism. Hence I think more and more Americans are ok with just letting situations like Myanmar fall apart. Why try to help when we will be painted as horrible/evil/etc. anyway? That's the sad reality..

Anyway, with a potential decoupling in the future, one negative; which we are already seeing, is more anti-Asian sentiment in the west. Unfortunately, there will be those among us that will blame their frustrations on any Asian looking person. My wife's dad voted for Trump the first time around, however, didn't the second time around after realizing all the Asian hate Trump was stirring up. Anyway, this is going to be a tough problem to navigate around for nations/cities that have a large East Asian population. Obviously, this is also a personal worry due to my family.

[Heisenberg]

Anyway, with a potential decoupling in the future, one negative; which we are already seeing, is more anti-Asian sentiment in the west.

Yes, it's almost as if relentless, dehumanising anti-Chinese propaganda has real world consequences. This is true of both the crude Trumpian variety, and the pseudo-woke "liberal order" variety. I have a couple of friends in New York who are now carrying mace around in anticipation of being randomly attacked in the street.

[Rancid]

Yes, it's almost as if relentless, dehumanising anti-Chinese propaganda has real world consequences. This is true of both the crude Trumpian variety, and the pseudo-woke "liberal order" variety. I have a couple of friends in New York who are now carrying mace around in anticipation of being randomly attacked in the street.

30% of NYC did vote for Trump.

[B0ycey]

The general populace of the US is tired of trying to be the world police and being hated for it. The general population is tried of being thrown into conflicts based on lies wrapped in humanitarianism. Hence I think more and more Americans are ok with just letting situations like Myanmar fall apart. Why try to help when we will be painted as horrible/evil/etc. anyway? That's the sad reality..

This is indeed the crux Rancid. Although intervention always seems to be self interest anyway. You have to question what makes freedom in the ME so special when Africa has been run by tinpot dictatorships for as long as I remember. Both the Rwanda and Yugoslav genocides occurred around the same time, one deserved miltary intervention and the other didn't. So people have had enough of Western interference when it isn't constant and to be frank biased - and this thought isn't just coming from the West I might add. So I am not surprised people aren't enthusiastic about in getting involved in China, Myanmar, Iran and North Korea on PoFo or even within the media or politics today. They have learnt that it doesn't really work. Because intervention seems to caused more problems than it solves in the 21st century. So perhaps the best course of action is the action everyone seems to agree on in PoFo. Stop dealing with partners who you have opposing views with.

[ThirdTerm]

There are many differences. China has neither needed nor wanted to pursue its goals by military conquest and has prided itself on a “peaceful rise”. Its diplomatic strategy, however, has been until recently a model of “divide and rule” that Bismarck would have recognised and admired. Any European nations that offended China, in particular by meeting the Dalai Lama at senior level, were punished with a freeze in political relations and threats of economic consequences. Norway, which hosted the award of the Nobel Peace Prize for the incarcerated human rights activist Liu Xiaobo, was picked out for six years of denunciation.

The EU should have the guts to cut commercial ties with Beijing to make a political point. If China actually faces threats of economic consequences over human rights issues, it would go soft on persecuted Muslim minorities in reeducation camps. The EU also turns a blind eye to political problems in Poland and Hungary, which are increasingly undemocratic. Trump had dealt with China very effectively. Without his leadership, China is going to win the Great Game. Trump is blamed for fanning anti-Asian sentiment in America but we didn't hear about hate crimes against Asian Americans when he was the president.

[Rancid]

but we didn't hear about hate crimes against Asian Americans when he was the president.

no.. YOU didn't hear about them, not we. They were most certainly happening.

hell, my father in law changed his mind on Trump (voted for him the first time) precisely because he noticed he was getting more harassment from people for being Chinese....

[Unthinking Majority]

Well it was written by William Hague so...

I don't see China miscalculation anything. I don't think they will accept any outside interference full stop. Very much like Russia. Basically they will be your friend as long as you leave them alone within their own territory especially. So you can throw as many sanctions towards them as you like, complain about human rights, freedom or whatnot but all they will just look for new global partners to fill in the void that you are vaccating. China is now looking at Iran I have noticed. They already have Africa, the yet the West continues to seek trade deals within China, despite the tit for tat trade off of diplomatic sanctions even now. You have to question that.

China won't be anyone's friend even if you leave them alone, they've proven that. They are playing pure Machiavellian power politics to attain as much power and wealth as possible without regard to any country. For many decades the US did a lot of terrible things to countries that weren't their allies for similar reasons, it's just a real-world game of chess and nobody really knows how to stop it because this went on during the Cold War too and for all of history.

So if it's us against them, I'm forced to choose us. Frankly I hate having to do it, everyday Westerners and Chinese mostly just want to trade with each other, not squabble. I don't have anything against China...until they start effing with my country.

The article is right, NATO/OECD countries (plus others like India) will probably be forced to unite into also an economic and diplomatic bloc to counter China. United we stand, divided we fall. Ask Hitler and the USSR and Bin Laden how that turned out for them.

[Unthinking Majority]

Intel is spending 20 billion to build 2 new chip plants in Arizona

Hague is informing us that Chinese sanctions against western governments are unifying western governments, and they clearly are.

The west does not need China for any reason, everything made in China can be made anywhere.

IT technology should be made domestically or in an ally country for national security reasons and should have security as tight as the Pentagon. This should be law.

You build IT plants (or any manufacturing) in China and they're going to bug the place and steal all the IP then make it themselves for cheaper as they have already done. It may cost a bit more to manufacture elsewhere but national security isn't free. To bad we didn't figure this out 20 years ago.

[Unthinking Majority]

The miscalculations in my mind is the outward aggression. South China Seas, Taiwan, Hong Kong, as well as manipulation of government in the Maldives & Sri Lanka; Australian trade disputes; and their general debt trap diplomacy (they attempting this with my parents native Dominican Republic). All of these things are not outright military aggression, but they will make it harder for anyone on the planet to want to cooperate with China on anything, even non-military.

I agree it's a miscalculation on China's part. If they had waited 20-30 more years and kept growing before showing this boldness in foreign policy it may have been too late for the West to do anything about it. China showed their cards too soon.

[Patrickov]

New data coming out this morning is saying that US manufacturing activity is at the highest its been since 1983. Don't know if that's a blip or sign of a larger trend.

I know some like Patrickov would like to see some sort of intervention, and that the inaction on Myanmar is disappointing. However, I think he and others like him need to understand that the west (especially the US) over the last 50-70 years has historically become mired in numerous interventions throughout history (some well intentioned, and many not). The general populace of the US is tired of trying to be the world police and being hated for it. The general population is tried of being thrown into conflicts based on lies wrapped in humanitarianism. Hence I think more and more Americans are ok with just letting situations like Myanmar fall apart. Why try to help when we will be painted as horrible/evil/etc. anyway? That's the sad reality.

Anyway, with a potential decoupling in the future, one negative; which we are already seeing, is more anti-Asian sentiment in the west. Unfortunately, there will be those among us that will blame their frustrations on any Asian looking person. My wife's dad voted for Trump the first time around, however, didn't the second time around after realizing all the Asian hate Trump was stirring up. Anyway, this is going to be a tough problem to navigate around for nations/cities that have a large East Asian population. Obviously, this is also a personal worry due to my family.

This is indeed the crux Rancid. Although intervention always seems to be self interest anyway. You have to question what makes freedom in the ME so special when Africa has been run by tinpot dictatorships for as long as I remember. Both the Rwanda and Yugoslav genocides occurred around the same time, one deserved miltary intervention and the other didn't. So people have had enough of Western interference when it isn't constant and to be frank biased - and this thought isn't just coming from the West I might add. So I am not surprised people aren't enthusiastic about in getting involved in China, Myanmar, Iran and North Korea on PoFo or even within the media or politics today. They have learnt that it doesn't really work. Because intervention seems to caused more problems than it solves in the 21st century. So perhaps the best course of action is the action everyone seems to agree on in PoFo. Stop dealing with partners who you have opposing views with.

Combining both of your comments, it seems both staying around or emigration do not help myself. On one hand I will be nicked off the street one random day, while the other option will make me persecuted like the Jews had been in the past few centuries.

It looks like either way I am going to die horribly. This is why I think a war is not as bad as many think. It makes no difference to me but at least justice will be served.

Of course in the ideal case the said war would be started by China, just like Germans had done during the early 20th Century. Not that they want it but they will believe they are forced into it, mainly because of their corrupted mindset.

[B0ycey]

Combining both of your comments, it seems both staying around or emigration do not help myself. On one hand I will be nicked off the street one random day, while the other option will make me persecuted like the Jews had been in the past few centuries.

I don't see why you would have a problem emigrating. People from HK are respected greatly in the UK due to previous close ties.

[B0ycey]

Of course in the ideal case the said war would be started by China, just like Germans had done during the early 20th Century. Not that they want it but they will believe they are forced into it, mainly because of their corrupted mindset.

For a war to occur amongst us and China, China would have to be the instigator actually. The West only engage in war of self interest and a conflict against China is counterproductive which is why they have been given a lot of leeway to stop that from happening. I have always found China calculated anyway rather than outright aggressive. You (we) might disagree with their actions due to our values but they make sense to me once I take my Western glasses off. The problem we have is Western mindset, sometimes to understand someone you have to look at something in their eyes. I don't see China playing risk with what will be the end of civilisation by pushing for war. But at the same time they do not like interference in their lands - which is why I don't see them giving in to Western demands EVER! What I do see happening is what is happening. China will continue to look for new allies in the world so their markets aren't reliant from the West due to conflicting interests - which is why they are making significant trade deals with Iran and Russia as we speak. And the West will begin to decouple from China if they can - which they are clearly finding difficult as the continue to look to trade with them by many avenues whilst seeking new avenues despite their vocal condemnation of rhetoric.

[Rancid]

Combining both of your comments, it seems both staying around or emigration do not help myself. On one hand I will be nicked off the street one random day, while the other option will make me persecuted like the Jews had been in the past few centuries.

It looks like either way I am going to die horribly. This is why I think a war is not as bad as many think. It makes no difference to me but at least justice will be served.

Of course in the ideal case the said war would be started by China, just like Germans had done during the early 20th Century. Not that they want it but they will believe they are forced into it, mainly because of their corrupted mindset.

Although anti-asian hate is raising in the west. Most of the western population does not condone nor accept it. More than ever, we are standing up against such injustices. My point being, that if hypothetically, you were to emigrate to the west. It would certainly be possible for you to receive some harassment, but I strongly doubt it will be to the degree that other societies have treated their minorities. For the record, I've received harassment in the US myself. This is the norm for non-white people in the west. However, it is getting better with each decade.

I'm saddened to see the increase attacked/harassment of Asian in the west, but at the same time, I don't fear for the life of my wife and kids. I also think we can make it better. People need to understand that there is a difference between Chinese people, and the CCP.


Anyway, as a side note as to why war is not possible. Just look at the poll in the other thread. More people on pofo believe the US is a greater threat to the well being of people than China.... that's the world we live in right. For better or worse.

[ThirdTerm]

I guess it will pass after Covid-19 is eradicated and anti-Asian sentiment is not directly related to the rise of China. I have seen a similar situation in Britain during the SARS epidemic which lasted approximately six months in 2003. People ostensibly avoided Asian people or made negative comments, presuming that they were primarily responsible for spreading the disease. Asian students were advised to understand the public sentiment back then. I encountered two Asian students at Heathrow and they were coughing incessantly. I had a sore throat for few weeks afterwards.

[Unthinking Majority]

Bad trade relations is going be pretty harmful for both the West and China. I think eventually the relationship will sort itself out. China is puffing its chest and seeing what it can get away with, and i don't think it's going to get away with as much as it has been for much longer. We all need to agree on the rules and stick to them. I wish our governments hadn't turned a blind eye until now though or we wouldn't be in this mess.

[Wolvenbear]

China is not putting up with what it sees as hypocritical Western interference in its sovereign affairs. Sanctions are being met with rapid counter-sanctions, and Chinese officials are vociferously pointing out Western double standards.
China’s colossal global economic power and growing international influence has been a game-changer in the old Western practice of imperialist arrogance.
Western hypocrisy towards China is astounding. Its claims about China committing genocide and forced labor are projections of its own past and current violations against indigenous people and ethnic minorities. The United States, Britain, Canada, Australia have vile histories stained from colonialist extermination and slavery.

The idea that I cannot criticize someone for bad behavior today because my ancestors engaged in bad behavior centuries ago is one of the most ridiculous stands that today's apologists take. It's not a real argument, it's just nonsense moral relativism. Even assuming the "historical sins" are correctly reported, and they usually are not, it is shockingly immoral to claim that we cannot learn from our past, and help institute a better future for others. It justifies the mistreatment of people of color today on the mistreatment of different people in the past, while pretending to be compassionate.

Nonsense on steroids.