Why do Americans automatically side with Ukraine over Russia? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15302466
Rich wrote:
Notice the insidiousness of the international liberal lie machine and its racist Russia hating agenda. The above is meant to imply that the building of Russia was somehow different from other states. Nearly all states were built through invasion and dynastic inheritance. France only exists as a nation state today because the Frankish kings invaded and occupied other countries. Even where nation building was a more consensual process such as the unification of Italy it was only possible because of the prior invasions of the Romans, creating a somewhat unified culture.



Are you drunk?

The EU felt it had moved past that. And then Russia attacked Georgia, Ukraine twice, and other places. When the Russian army headed towards the capital of Ukraine, everybody knew what they were doing. It's not like Putin is shy, he wants to put the empire back together.

Guys like you wouldn't know, but Europe has been watching Putin do this for decades, starting with Chechnya (they have oil).

After all those wars you talk about came the World Wars of the 20th Century. They sucked. For some reason, Europe doesn't want to go through that again.

Oh yeah, they're sane.
#15302472
QatzelOk wrote:Why do Americans automatically think that the Republicans and Democrats are radically different in meaningful ways?

This is marketing. What both parties share is vastly more important than their different stands (different marketing) on abortion, BLM, January 7 or the Border.

Both parties love war, love giving money to rich corporations, love doing $60,000 talking fees when they are out of office after serving corporate interests for their entire lives.

Both of them worry about the Epstein videos, kneel to AIPAC and Israel, speak in rhymes in order to protect corporate atrocities, give billions of tax dollars to already-rich corporations, and show up at Davos with their mouths agape.

Image"Feed us the lies we need to stay rich!"

A LACK OF REAL CHOICE - in both political parties and media information - is a huge reason why Americans automatically side with Ukraine over Russia.

***

The establishment Democrats and establishment Republicans are indeed warmongering corporate puppets. On the other hand, Putin is a domineering and corrupt asshole and had already invaded and annexed Crimea.

Ukraine is a proxy war for assholes with Ukrainians caught in the middle.
#15302525
Ask yourself some questions ... Was Ukraine ever a threat to Russia ?
The blatantly obvious answer to this question is NO, so then the next question is WHY did Russia attack and invade Ukraine. ?

Those that would foolishly defend what Putin did, might come up with an answer like this .... because Ukraine wanted to join NATO, and Russia does not want NATO on its doorstep, on its borders. This answer might be plausable, except that Ukraine showed no interest in joining NATO until Russia (A) annexed Crimea, and (B) aided and funded terrorist separatists in the East of Ukraine.

I am afraid to say that those who might defend Putin have not a leg to stand on, there basically was no valid reason for Russia to attack Ukraine, other than to stop Ukraine from aligning itself with the European Union, which was, and still is what MOST Ukrainians want.

Putin wants to resurrect something like the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire, he bemoans the fact that countries such as Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, and others are now independent of Russia.
#15302527
Unthinking Majority wrote:T...Putin is a domineering and corrupt asshole and had already invaded and annexed Crimea...

From the USA perspective, all for'ners are potential assholes that you might need to kill. Remember all those millions of First Nations "assholes" that were killed by "the good guys," Unthink?


witchfinder wrote:Putin wants to resurrect something like the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire...

Yes, and North Korea wants to resurrect what empire? Hamas has what kind of empire in mind? Iran wants to resurrect what kind of empire? China is trying to rebuild which dynasty? Cuba is trying to colonize which continents?

A thousand military bases, and the USA accuses the countries it abuses with empire-building. Lies don't come any cheaper than this, and if they are believed by the USA population, they demonstrate the power of propaganda to make people unbelievably stupid.

Congratulations on doing this.
#15302542
QatzelOk wrote:From the USA perspective, all for'ners are potential assholes that you might need to kill. Remember all those millions of First Nations "assholes" that were killed by "the good guys," Unthink?



Yes, and North Korea wants to resurrect what empire? Hamas has what kind of empire in mind? Iran wants to resurrect what kind of empire? China is trying to rebuild which dynasty? Cuba is trying to colonize which continents?

A thousand military bases, and the USA accuses the countries it abuses with empire-building. Lies don't come any cheaper than this, and if they are believed by the USA population, they demonstrate the power of propaganda to make people unbelievably stupid.

Congratulations on doing this.


This topic is not about North Korea, or Hamas or China, it is about a democratic independent peaceful country fighting for its very existence because a tyranical warmonger (Putin) wants to hold the puppet strings once again over Ukraine, as was the case for generations.

The USA is not the cause of this war, and the United States is not always right, but in this instance the United States has rightly sided with what is legal, morally right and in defence of democratic principles, the idea that a peaceful, sovereign nation has the right to exist without interference, and without been attacked for the purposes of stealing territory and to make the people and government of Ukraine cower to Moscow.

The entire Cold War 1945 - 1988 was caused entirely by the Soviet Union who, unlike the allied powers, refused to relinquish control of lands liberated from the Nazis ....... Sam old Russia.
#15302550
witchfinder wrote:The entire Cold War 1945 - 1988 was caused entirely by the Soviet Union who, unlike the allied powers, refused to relinquish control of lands liberated from the Nazis ....... Sam old Russia.


Indeed, and people conveniently forget that the US had a monopoly on Nuclear weapons and choose not to use those weapons further.
#15302554
Rancid wrote:
Indeed, and people conveniently forget that the US had a monopoly on Nuclear weapons and choose not to use those weapons further.



Even after they got the bomb, the Bear bombers they had could not reach America, it would take maybe a decade before they had enough missiles to offer credible deterrence.
#15302604
witchfinder wrote:The entire Cold War 1945 - 1988 was caused entirely by the Soviet Union who, unlike the allied powers, refused to relinquish control of lands liberated from the Nazis ....... Sam old Russia.

Why don't Americans study history? The idea that a peaceful, sovereign nation has the right to exist without interference was not America's idea.

They interfered everywhere.

See Operation Gladio


:lol:
#15302609
ingliz wrote:Why don't Americans study history? The idea that a peaceful, sovereign nation has the right to exist without interference was not America's idea.

They interfered everywhere.

See Operation Gladio


:lol:


I read that entire link you put in Ingliz. The only ones who believe the lie that the US government and the UK government do not interfere and are not anti-Leftist in their entire interference history are the ones who never study history.

The FBI confessed and released a lot of documents stating clearly they would sabotage and use torture and violence and assassination of leaders in just to keep rebellious African Americans, Puerto Ricans and others in check during the 1960s. Operation COINTELPRO in wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

An excerpt from that link above:
After the 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, Hoover singled out King as a major target for COINTELPRO. Under pressure from Hoover to focus on King, Sullivan wrote:[32]

In the light of King's powerful demagogic speech ... We must mark him now if we have not done so before, as the most dangerous Negro of the future in this nation from the standpoint of communism, the Negro, and national security.

Soon after, the FBI was systematically bugging King's home and his hotel rooms, as they were now aware that King was growing in stature daily as the most prominent leader of the civil rights movement.[33]

In the mid-1960s, King began to publicly criticize the Bureau for giving insufficient attention to the use of terrorism by white supremacists. Hoover responded by publicly calling King the most "notorious liar" in the United States.[34] In his 1991 memoir, Washington Post journalist Carl Rowan asserted that the FBI had sent at least one anonymous letter to King encouraging him to commit suicide.[35] Historian Taylor Branch documents an anonymous "suicide package" sent by the FBI on November 21, 1964, that contained audio recordings obtained through tapping King's phone and placing bugs throughout various hotel rooms over the past two years,[36] and that was created two days after the announcement of King's impending Nobel Peace Prize.[36] The tape, which was prepared by FBI audio technician John Matter,[36] documented a series of sexual indiscretions by King combined with a letter telling him: "There is only one way out for you. You better take it before your filthy, abnormal, fraudulent self is bared to the nation".[37] King was subsequently informed that the audio would be released to the media if he did not acquiesce and commit suicide prior to accepting his Nobel Peace Prize.[36] When King refused to satisfy their coercion tactics, FBI Associate Director, Cartha D. DeLoach, commenced a media campaign offering the surveillance transcript to various news organizations, including Newsweek and Newsday.[36] Even by 1969, as has been noted elsewhere, "[FBI] efforts to 'expose' Martin Luther King Jr. had not slackened even though King had been dead for a year. [The Bureau] furnished ammunition to opponents that enabled attacks on King's memory, and ... tried to block efforts to honor the slain leader."[37]

Anyone who was considered LEFT was targeted. Never did they deal with white supremacists because J. Edgar Hoover FBI director was a racist man, suppressed with his secret homosexual activities and he also persecuted gay men ruthlessly while he was himself a gay man in total secrecy.

These RIGHT WING hypocritical freaks are in these organizations creating havoc!!
#15302612
The exposing of the hypocrisy of 'tankies' is none more evident than the Ukraine war. I am in no way a supporter of the United States of America, a country which has caused untold havoc around the globe for decades now. However, Russia is the other cheek of that arse. A bullying, cajoling and wounded nation that wants to throw its weight around in its near region. It has been that way for centuries and this war is just a continuation of that. That doesn't mean the USA are innocent (NATO expansion was a great provocation) but I hope Ukraine wins this war.
#15302672
witchfinder wrote:This topic is not about North Korea, or Hamas or China, it is about a democratic independent peaceful country fighting for its very existence because a tyranical warmonger (Putin) wants to hold the puppet strings...


Can you imagine the West's bankers letting someone else pull the puppet strings? They pull the strings on their own populations via their propaganda monopoly mass media... (which the Internet threatens so they are trying to destroy free speech on the Internet).

Without control over all those billions of little strings, the Western Elite would go bankrupt and then its formerly-loyal militaries would have to do productive things that actually produce value, high speed rail, infrastructure maintenance...

Americans think that "Ukraine is good, and North Korea is evil" because this is what the bankers force them to think by controlling information and entertainment.

...it is about a democratic independent peaceful country fighting for its very existence because a tyranical warmonger...


...It is about a democratic independent peaceful country fighting for its very existence because a tyranical warmonger...



This time, it's personal

Now it's time to face the music

They said he would never make it out alive...


etc
#15302713
QatzelOk wrote:
Can you imagine the West's bankers letting someone else pull the puppet strings? They pull the strings on their own populations via their propaganda monopoly mass media... (which the Internet threatens so they are trying to destroy free speech on the Internet).

Without control over all those billions of little strings, the Western Elite would go bankrupt and then its formerly-loyal militaries would have to do productive things that actually produce value, high speed rail, infrastructure maintenance...

Americans think that "Ukraine is good, and North Korea is evil" because this is what the bankers force them to think by controlling information and entertainment.



...It is about a democratic independent peaceful country fighting for its very existence because a tyranical warmonger...



This time, it's personal

Now it's time to face the music

They said he would never make it out alive...


etc



Jerry Seinfeld would not agree with you, in fact, you using him is a little bit funny, but just a little. Watch a few episodes of Comedians getting coffee on Youtube, you'll see what I mean.

Which is my point. Not that it's a new point, or profound. It's a bit boring, but that doesn't make it wrong.

You are trying to have it both ways. Not that anyone here cares. Freud wrote a book about a hundred years ago, titled Civilisation and it's Discontents.

Basically, if what you want happens, you will go down with it. Which is why it's a little bit funny.
#15302817
late wrote:Jerry Seinfeld would not agree with you 1...

You are trying to have it both ways 2...

Basically, if what you want happens, you will go down with it. 3


If this is Dada or Automatist poetry, than it is out of my league.

But if you have attempted to make points here, can you explain a few things:

1. What does Jerry Seinfeld have to do with anything in my last post?

2. What "am I trying to have both ways?"

3. And what do I want to happen (that I will "go down" with)?

Are you saying that "believing the lies we are told" will save us?
#15302969
late wrote:You are part of what you hope will burn, it's mildly amusing.

This is true of every pre-Revolutionary people. It only "gets better" for the general population after it has been "a whole lot worse" during the bottom-up reset.

Post Civil-War USA was poor and bitter. Is that a reason to bring back slavery and rebuild Atlanta the way "it used to be?"

No. Civilizational leaders have a best-before date, and that date - for our Western crooks - has long expired.

If you don't throw out expired food, you can die of food poisoning.... which is much worse than losing a few bucks by throwing away expired food items.

late wrote:...I had a chip on my shoulder when I was younger (I'm in my 70s). I still hope you will outgrow it.

Not every horse can be broken like you were broken.
#15303049
Rich wrote:Notice the insidiousness of the international liberal lie machine and its racist Russia hating agenda. The above is meant to imply that the building of Russia was somehow different from other states. Nearly all states were built through invasion and dynastic inheritance. France only exists as a nation state today because the Frankish kings invaded and occupied other countries. Even where nation building was a more consensual process such as the unification of Italy it was only possible because of the prior invasions of the Romans, creating a somewhat unified culture.

The unification of Italy was consensual? So Garibaldi’s military campaign had nothing to do with it? And the Papacy was okay with it too, eh? :eh:

Your basic point is absolutely right, of course. All nation-states have been stitched together by brutal butchers. Even by the late 18th century, most Frenchmen didn’t speak French.
#15303051
QatzelOk wrote:From the USA perspective, all for'ners are potential assholes that you might need to kill. Remember all those millions of First Nations "assholes" that were killed by "the good guys," Unthink?



Yes, and North Korea wants to resurrect what empire? Hamas has what kind of empire in mind? Iran wants to resurrect what kind of empire? China is trying to rebuild which dynasty? Cuba is trying to colonize which continents?

A thousand military bases, and the USA accuses the countries it abuses with empire-building. Lies don't come any cheaper than this, and if they are believed by the USA population, they demonstrate the power of propaganda to make people unbelievably stupid.

Congratulations on doing this.

How dare those foreigners build their countries so close to our military bases?! >:
#15303053
"Canada’s deputy prime minister, Chrystia Freeland, noted that it is we, the West, who should be thanking the Ukrainians, not forcing them to beg us for more weapons. She also eloquently formulated the stakes: “What Putin wants is to transform the world order” that evolved since World War II and the post-Cold War — where “the competition between nations was about who can be richer and who can help their people prosper the most . … Putin hates that world because he loses in that world — his system is a loser in a peaceful, global, wealth-enhancing paradigm. And so what he wants is to move us back to dog-eat-dog, to a 19th-century, great power competition, because he thinks he can, if not win, be more effective there. … Let’s not think that this is a Ukrainian problem; this is a problem for us all.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/25/opinion/israel-gaza-war-ukraine.html
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