[Agent Steel]

As many of you know, not long ago, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced a full scale invasion against Ukraine.

Almost immediately, US media reports painted Putin as a tyrant, and encouraged nationwide support for Ukraine, the presumed victim, and Russia, as the presumed aggressor.

But why?

Does Russia not have the right to fight back against the incursion onto their territory by the United Nations? Why is the UN allowed to constantly sanction aggressive tactics against their enemies but the moment Russia does the same thing, the whole world gets upset?

It seems like the majority of Americans just immediately assume that Russia is in the wrong without any foreknowledge of all of the events that CAUSED such an invasion. The American media presents a narrative, and the average schmuck gobbles it up and supports it. I do not understand why Americans are so gullible and susceptible to this type of mass-scale control.

Why do Americans automatically side with Ukraine over Russia?

[QatzelOk]

Why do Americans automatically side with Ukraine over Russia?

Q: Why do dogs always side with their masters?

A: Because that's who feeds them, and they are unable to hunt or forage at this stage in their domestication.

If you understand how analogies work, you will be able to connect the dots.

[late]

But why?

We're sane.

Russia is on the warpath, and if they conquer Ukraine, most of the countries Putin wants to invade next are part of NATO.

You see, crazy as it sounds to you, we don't want WW3.

[Istanbuller]

I don't think it is true to make that kind of generalization. I think millions of Americans think in favour of Russia like Donald Trump.

Supporting Ukraine is based on moral values. You support the victim not the rapist.

[QatzelOk]

We're sane.

Russia is on the warpath, and if they conquer Ukraine, most of the countries Putin wants to invade next are part of NATO.

What are his next conquests likely to be? Germany and France? The Falklands (UK)?

You see, crazy as it sounds to you, we don't want WW3.

So you see the USA (or its UK founders) as being a country "that avoids war as much as possible?"



Also, the USA is 35 trillion in debt from wars. If avoiding wars really had been a tactic of the USA, it would have mass transit, compact cities, highspeed rail, and a strong industrial economy. But it doesn't have any of these things. Just wars.

[late]

What are his next conquests likely to be? Germany and France? The Falklands (UK)?


So you see the USA (or its UK founders) as being a country "that avoids war as much as possible?"

Putin wants to put together the old Soviet Union. 5 of those countries are now in NATO. Some of those countries, like Poland have geography that makes it easy to defend. Holding those countries has been a Russian ambition for centuries.

Of course not, but we didn't start this, we just helped the guy that got invaded.

[Tainari88]

What are his next conquests likely to be? Germany and France? The Falklands (UK)?


So you see the USA (or its UK founders) as being a country "that avoids war as much as possible?"



Also, the USA is 35 trillion in debt from wars. If avoiding wars really had been a tactic of the USA, it would have mass transit, compact cities, highspeed rail, and a strong industrial economy. But it doesn't have any of these things. Just wars.

Well it is annoying how facts get in the way of a perfectly good lie.

[Tainari88]

Putin wants to put together the old Soviet Union. 5 of those countries are now in NATO. Some of those countries, like Poland have geography that makes it easy to defend. Holding those countries has been a Russian ambition for centuries.

Of course not, but we didn't start this, we just helped the guy that got invaded.

Putin is a right wing fascist. He wants to hold on to power. He is into war.

Trump likes Putin because he is a right wing fascist and he likes war. But Biden is spending money on wars on two fronts right now. The Republicans are getting sick of spending on wars. They want to spend on corporations who are their buddies. Leave the USA public with underfunded schools and fucked up infrastructure.

The defense industry is getting happy. Cluster bombs that were hard to sell got taken off their hands and now might wind up killing some innocent people in both Ukraine and Russia. A great destination for cluster bombs.

Oh Great War Machine in the Sky. We need a few more Right Wing Dictators from the West, from the East, and so on....because war is good for the economy. That is what George W. Bush Jr stated to Kirschner the president of Argentina in a Summit he attended.

Clip please:

The solution is not a Marshall Plan....we need war.

Meanwhile, you got 42-year-old grandmothers like Rachel Powell, who are going to jail for insurrection because these conservative Christians are believers in what these right-wing dictator wannabes tell them. They are going to be pardoned. By the man who she believes is fighting the system. They know something is not quite great with the US government. But she blames the liberals. Liberals who have destroyed a decent America.

Who are they going to blame next for the USA going down the tubes? Is the arms and defense contractor industry making money off of war and ignoring basic issues at home? No. They are going to blame the liberals, Gays, and Guns and GOD is going to make things RIGHT!! To hell with courts and law and order. Got to be into overthrowing the liberals.

They do not know the difference between who is a real liberal, who is a communist, who is a socialist, why Pence did not back Trump?....our whole country is under threat by the LIBERALS, GAYS and so on....

They got issues.

Somehow they think liberals are going to disappear from the USA and all is right with the world again.

I have no idea how they do not see that unless these people understand that it is about what BUSH told Kirschner and not about Liberals? They will bring on violence, civil war and bullshit of the worst sort to bear on the USA government.

The theocratic right wants to remake the USA into a land that no longer is going to be in existence. They have to hold on to their idea of America.

They are going to fight for their version of America. That is what ignorance leads to.

[late]

Putin is a right wing fascist. He wants to hold on to power. He is into war.

Trump likes Putin because he is a right wing fascist and he likes war. But Biden is spending money on wars on two fronts right now. The Republicans are getting sick of spending on wars. They want to spend on corporations who are their buddies. Leave the USA public with underfunded schools and fucked up infrastructure.

The defense industry is getting happy. Cluster bombs that were hard to sell got taken off their hands and now might wind up killing some innocent people in both Ukraine and Russia. A great destination for cluster bombs.

Oh Great War Machine in the Sky. We need a few more Right Wing Dictators from the West, from the East, and so on....because war is good for the economy. That is what George W. Bush Jr stated to Kirschner the president of Argentina in a Summit he attended.

Clip please:

The solution is not a Marshall Plan....we need war.

Meanwhile, you got 42-year-old grandmothers like Rachel Powell, who are going to jail for insurrection because these conservative Christians are believers in what these right-wing dictator wannabes tell them. They are going to be pardoned. By the man who she believes is fighting the system. They know something is not quite great with the US government. But she blames the liberals. Liberals who have destroyed a decent America.

Who are they going to blame next for the USA going down the tubes? Is the arms and defense contractor industry making money off of war and ignoring basic issues at home? No. They are going to blame the liberals, Gays, and Guns and GOD is going to make things RIGHT!! To hell with courts and law and order. Got to be into overthrowing the liberals.

They do not know the difference between who is a real liberal, who is a communist, who is a socialist, why Pence did not back Trump?....our whole country is under threat by the LIBERALS, GAYS and so on....

They got issues.

Somehow they think liberals are going to disappear from the USA and all is right with the world again.

I have no idea how they do not see that unless these people understand that it is about what BUSH told Kirschner and not about Liberals? They will bring on violence, civil war and bullshit of the worst sort to bear on the USA government.

The theocratic right wants to remake the USA into a land that no longer is going to be in existence. They have to hold on to their idea of America.

They are going to fight for their version of America. That is what ignorance leads to.

Most of the weapons we've given to Ukraine were old, and not used anymore. Stingers? They don't fit in with the way we do war now. Ukraine was saving us money for a while, because it costs to destroy them.

While the ME is heating up, and could boil up into a war that drags us in, we're not spending much there, either. At least not yet.

Since Dobbs, Republicans have been losing most elections. I expect that will continue until they learn a remarkably simple lesson. Well, a couple lessons, do your job, which is to take care of the country, not burn it down. You can teach that to a 5 year old..

[Tainari88]

Most of the weapons we've given to Ukraine were old, and not used anymore. Stingers? They don't fit in with the way we do war now. Ukraine was saving us money for a while, because it costs to destroy them.

While the ME is heating up, and could boil up into a war that drags us in, we're not spending much there, either. At least not yet.

Since Dobbs, Republicans have been losing most elections. I expect that will continue until they learn a remarkably simple lesson. Well, a couple lessons, do your job, which is to take care of the country, not burn it down. You can teach that to a 5 year old..

You can't see Late that in order to start a civil war you do not need a lot of or a majority of people to agree that the nation needs to be burned down. What you need is a hardcore group of insistent people willing to lie and then seize power. That is it. Election is stolen. Liberals are responsible for lockdowns and economic breakdown. Gays are telling my children to turn gay. There are some men kissing on the mouth on cable TV. They want to turn straight people into gays.

They want to take my guns away from me. They want me to be ok with some Black family in the very WHITE HOUSE.

They want women to become men and men to become women. They want me to stop worshiping God and buy Chinese trucks and cars. They want....

You are dealing with a group of Americans who have always existed but were not aware of how horrible the liberals are. Liberals are responsible for everything wrong with America.

That is the war cry and the rallying cry Late.

Do not destroy the nation. Late, you got a very sizable amount of people who really see a damn threat to their way of life. The Latin American South of the Border VERMIN. Speaking Spanish, overrunning their lives.

You are not dealing with people who want to do research or look for factual information. It is a very visceral, emotional and irrational response and they mean to go out there and take back the government that is legitimately for people like Trump. Some conman from Queens who is white as snow, fascist and liars and who are not career politicians. Lol.

The USA is getting the leaders that represent the worst of what being an American is about.

Marjorie Taylor Greene, Boebert, and all the rest. George Santos....that man was out of control with the lying and he was a Republican. Lol.

Frankly, unless the USA gives up on the fake lying shit they have going on brainwashing paranoid people who think the enemies are Blacks and Blacks Live Matter, Liberals at Harvard, Gay men getting married, and pregnant teenagers who refuse to have a baby they are not ready for, and cutting off welfare payments and cutting back SNAP benefits and maybe just leave everyone without any health care that is not privately run, and making social security a Wall Street run private investment firm?

Late...unless people get active and kick ass in the USA? Politically? The crazy MORONIC INFERNO is coming for all of the dumbass people who sat at home and did not vote. Did not do jack shit. it is time for action.

That much is clear.

[Tainari88]

@late the reason why cluster bombs were banned.

Cluster munitions are globally banned because they cause both immediate and long-term civilian harm, leaving behind unexploded remnants that act as landmines for years.Sep 5, 2023

All that is IMMORAL late.

I am sick of immorality in war. It should have been a lesson learned. Kids are victims.

[late]

You can't see, late, that in order to start a civil war you do not need a lot of or a majority of people to agree that the nation needs to be burned down.

I can see it.

We should be able to hold the barbarians at bay, but you are right, the risk is high, and the cost of failure is the stuff of nightmares.

But you were making comments about the economy, more precisely, the cost of the military. I wandered into economics from history. Historical events are occasionally puzzling if historians don't understand the influence economics had on those events.

It's an unusual perspective, but one that has certain advantages. The first one is that there is a ton of BS being thrown..

Debt will eventually end the empire. But don't hold your breath waiting. You see, the global economy we created is incredibly strong. For all the problems we have, we caused a tidal wave of economic activity that lifted billions out of poverty. And while there is way too much war, there is still less than we were having in the past. (Those 2 things are connected, we created the global economy in the hope that countries that do business wouldn't go to war. Just look at the EU, and the century before it was created).

Bottom line, our economy is strong, and will be, for some time.

One last thing, I will disagree with you, on occasion, but I love having you around. An intelligent woman with a non-American perspective is the proverbial unicorn. I've been doing forums for 3 decades, women show up, but they don't stay. Kudos, my sweet.

[Tainari88]

I can see it.

We should be able to hold the barbarians at bay, but you are right, the risk is high, and the cost of failure is the stuff of nightmares.

But you were making comments about the economy, more precisely, the cost of the military. I wandered into economics from history. Historical events are occasionally puzzling if historians don't understand the influence economics had on those events.

It's an unusual perspective, but one that has certain advantages. The first one is that there is a ton of BS being thrown..

Debt will eventually end the empire. But don't hold your breath waiting. You see, the global economy we created is incredibly strong. For all the problems we have, we caused a tidal wave of economic activity that lifted billions out of poverty. And while there is way too much war, there is still less than we were having in the past. (Those 2 things are connected, we created the global economy in the hope that countries that do business wouldn't go to war. Just look at the EU, and the century before it was created).

Bottom line, our economy is strong, and will be, for some time.

One last thing, I will disagree with you, on occasion, but I love having you around. An intelligent woman with a non-American perspective is the proverbial unicorn. I've been doing forums for 3 decades, women show up, but they don't stay. Kudos, my sweet.

I no longer live in the USA late. I am much happier with my life here in Mexico. This nation I visited since I was eight years of age.

But here you see poverty that is bad. It is hard to believe the economy is so great when I used to work in the USA with the homeless, high school dropouts, and the poor in the USA I would cope with day in and day out. So for me? The strong global economy has failed a lot of humans. Both in the USA and in Mexico.

I hate seeing little kids selling pencils in the street and candy in Mexico and beggars and people in the US on drugs and also panhandling and a lot of homelessness. A lot of problems.

Those need to be dealt with with heavy and consistent socialism that is well funded. It is not. There is enough money for everyone to get a UBI (Universal Basic Income). But the conservative points of view in politics do not believe in that. They will when they squeeze too tight and create the conditions for mob violence and hatred for government and for anyone who is well off to the point of blood and guts in the streets.

Why wait to that? Solve the problem when it is still easy to do.

But they do not listen to reason, do they?

I forgot to thank you for the compliment. I always like to work on things when they are easy to deal with. If you wait for a crisis all the time the remedy is always more expensive, more intractable, and more time-consuming.

Women rarely want to be debating with men who always expect women to be this or that. Women make fine presidents and fine politicians. Mexico is going to have a woman president this year. And not only that? She is a scientist and multilingual and also a socialist. My kind of lady. So? I am looking forward to it.

[QatzelOk]

...Trump likes Putin because he is a right wing fascist and he likes war. But Biden is spending money on wars on two fronts right now. The Republicans are getting sick of spending on wars. They want to spend on corporations who are their buddies. Leave the USA public with underfunded schools and fucked up infrastructure.

The defense industry is getting happy....

Why do Americans automatically think that the Republicans and Democrats are radically different in meaningful ways?

This is marketing. What both parties share is vastly more important than their different stands (different marketing) on abortion, BLM, January 7 or the Border.

Both parties love war, love giving money to rich corporations, love doing $60,000 talking fees when they are out of office after serving corporate interests for their entire lives.

Both of them worry about the Epstein videos, kneel to AIPAC and Israel, speak in rhymes in order to protect corporate atrocities, give billions of tax dollars to already-rich corporations, and show up at Davos with their mouths agape.

"Feed us the lies we need to stay rich!"

A LACK OF REAL CHOICE - in both political parties and media information - is a huge reason why Americans automatically side with Ukraine over Russia.

***

[JohnRawls]

As many of you know, not long ago, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced a full scale invasion against Ukraine.

Almost immediately, US media reports painted Putin as a tyrant, and encouraged nationwide support for Ukraine, the presumed victim, and Russia, as the presumed aggressor.

But why?

Does Russia not have the right to fight back against the incursion onto their territory by the United Nations? Why is the UN allowed to constantly sanction aggressive tactics against their enemies but the moment Russia does the same thing, the whole world gets upset?

It seems like the majority of Americans just immediately assume that Russia is in the wrong without any foreknowledge of all of the events that CAUSED such an invasion. The American media presents a narrative, and the average schmuck gobbles it up and supports it. I do not understand why Americans are so gullible and susceptible to this type of mass-scale control.

Why do Americans automatically side with Ukraine over Russia?

Because Russia is not trustworthy in anyones book. We tried to reach an agreement dozens if not hundreds of times already and Russia just ignored everything.

The reason is simple though, Europe and US are far better economical, social and cultural system compared to what anybody else offers right now. So if you acknowledge that countries have the right to choose their own path then obviously those countries will eventually, over time, choose what US and EU is doing. So Russia can't acknowledge that and keeps japing about its back yard and stuff which violates basic principles of international law severely.

The whole problem with Ukraine stems from the fact that they do not want to keep using the Russian corrupt kleptocratic and deceitful model and want to be part of the West eventually. Russia can't reform their model since Putin and his cronies are literal beneficiatiaries of those stolen money, assets etc and they do not really know how to do anything else. In a competitive economy they would be fired long ago and their companies lynched to pieces to become far more competitive compared to the monopolies that they are running now under the ownership of sons, children, mothers or directly themselves of the beurocrats.

Why would anyone in the West support Russia under those conditions? They are literally breaking the rules of the whole system that we directly benefit from and expand our influence under without war. Simply because we are way better than Russia or China for that matter.

[Rich]

Because Russia is not trustworthy in anyones book.

On the plane of nations and states ,no one is trustworthy. Seeking the destruction of a nation just because their leaders have proved untrustworthy is demented narcissism. When Nixon went to China do you think he thought that Mao was trustworthy? Do you think that the Chinese Nationalists were trustworthy?

No of course not, in fact Nixon and Kissenger explicitly thought that 20 years hence they might have to seek an alliance with the Soviet Union against China. We should seek peace and reconciliation with Russia, but that does not mean we just roll over and let them have what ever they want. Of course after getting a peace we should build up Ukraine's army. It would be good to give Ukraine nuclear weapons. Making peace does not mean placing blind trust in Putin or his successors.

I want us to find peace with Russia, so we can focus on our Chinese settler-imperialist and Muslim settler-imperialist enemies and for us to stop waving the stick at Russia. But that doesn't mean the stick should be thrown away.

[JohnRawls]

On the plane of nations and states ,no one is trustworthy. Seeking the destruction of a nation just because their leaders have proved untrustworthy is demented narcissism. When Nixon went to China do you think he thought that Mao was trustworthy? Do you think that the Chinese Nationalists were trustworthy?

No of course not, in fact Nixon and Kissenger explicitly thought that 20 years hence they might have to seek an alliance with the Soviet Union against China. We should seek peace and reconciliation with Russia, but that does not mean we just roll over and let them have what ever they want. Of course after getting a peace we should build up Ukraine's army. It would be good to give Ukraine nuclear weapons. Making peace does not mean placing blind trust in Putin or his successors.

I want us to find peace with Russia, so we can focus on our Chinese settler-imperialist and Muslim settler-imperialist enemies and for us to stop waving the stick at Russia. But that doesn't mean the stick should be thrown away.

We can find peace with Russia once its defeated or/and liberal democratic state.

[late]

On the plane of nations and states ,no one is trustworthy. Seeking the destruction of a nation just because their leaders have proved untrustworthy is demented narcissism. When Nixon went to China do you think he thought that Mao was trustworthy? Do you think that the Chinese Nationalists were trustworthy?

No of course not, in fact Nixon and Kissenger explicitly thought that 20 years hence they might have to seek an alliance with the Soviet Union against China. We should seek peace and reconciliation with Russia, but that does not mean we just roll over and let them have what ever they want. Of course after getting a peace we should build up Ukraine's army. It would be good to give Ukraine nuclear weapons. Making peace does not mean placing blind trust in Putin or his successors.

I want us to find peace with Russia, so we can focus on our Chinese settler-imperialist and Muslim settler-imperialist enemies and for us to stop waving the stick at Russia. But that doesn't mean the stick should be thrown away.

Forget Nixon, Kissinger wanted to split China from Russia, or vice versa, either way was fine.

Russia has, for centuries, tried to protect itself by occupying the several countries that have those geographical features, like gaps, that they can easily defend. 5 NATO countries have to fall before that can happen...

Putin is very serious about that. So peace is off the table as long as Putin is on the warpath.

Btw, China is in deep doo doo, and the Muslims are too busy with sectarian conflict to threaten us in a serious way. We had Iran settled down, but then Trump had to go and kill the treaty.

IOW, Russia is a million times the threat posed by the Muslim world, and China is in horrible economic trouble.

One last thing, we are at the beginning of an economic boom while most of the rest of the world is in economic trouble. Take the f**king win.

[Rancid]

Because Russia is not trustworthy in anyones book. We tried to reach an agreement dozens if not hundreds of times already and Russia just ignored everything.

The reason is simple though, Europe and US are far better economical, social and cultural system compared to what anybody else offers right now. So if you acknowledge that countries have the right to choose their own path then obviously those countries will eventually, over time, choose what US and EU is doing. So Russia can't acknowledge that and keeps japing about its back yard and stuff which violates basic principles of international law severely.

The whole problem with Ukraine stems from the fact that they do not want to keep using the Russian corrupt kleptocratic and deceitful model and want to be part of the West eventually. Russia can't reform their model since Putin and his cronies are literal beneficiatiaries of those stolen money, assets etc and they do not really know how to do anything else. In a competitive economy they would be fired long ago and their companies lynched to pieces to become far more competitive compared to the monopolies that they are running now under the ownership of sons, children, mothers or directly themselves of the beurocrats.

Why would anyone in the West support Russia under those conditions? They are literally breaking the rules of the whole system that we directly benefit from and expand our influence under without war. Simply because we are way better than Russia or China for that matter.

Basically this. The pro-Russian imperialism crowd, basically can't think.

[Rich]

Russia has, for centuries, tried to protect itself by occupying the several countries

Notice the insidiousness of the international liberal lie machine and its racist Russia hating agenda. The above is meant to imply that the building of Russia was somehow different from other states. Nearly all states were built through invasion and dynastic inheritance. France only exists as a nation state today because the Frankish kings invaded and occupied other countries. Even where nation building was a more consensual process such as the unification of Italy it was only possible because of the prior invasions of the Romans, creating a somewhat unified culture.