Discrimination and Sophistication - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Classical liberalism. The individual before the state, non-interventionist, free-market based society.
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#13896196
With all this clamoring going on about libertarians being racists, I think it's about time people discussed what's really going on.

Even within the Republican party, libertarians are outcast. They're outcast for not taking social values seriously. Recently, when Ron Paul was asked about charitable health care, he referred to churches as a provider despite libertarianism supposedly being beyond religion. On another note, Ron Paul has clamored emphatically for a reduction in defense spending, but he hasn't considered how the military is the one institutional card conservatives actually have in government to influence social policy.

On the other hand, despite how libertarianism supports immigrant naturalization, legalizing drugs, and abortion tolerance, progressives still hound on the supposed racism of freedom of association. It's a very unsophisticated argument because it ignores due process...

...or is it?

The question seems to really boil down to how one defines "sophistication". In logical terms, yes, obviously freedom of association itself isn't racist. Some racists might use freedom of association, though, as an excuse to prohibit say blacks from entering their restaurants...

...but is that what's really the issue among the political establishment?

In social terms, "sophistication" isn't about being logically correct. Sophistication is about being classy. It's about having economic power and social layers such that you're protected from being... TROLLED by fallacious criticism.

The reason for this is people don't need vulnerable leaders. We don't need people who are being distracted by little pests. It's the same reason we have press secretaries. Press secretaries are a buffer between the media and politicians so politicians can stay focused (yea right, but just go with it) on getting their job done. Does Ron Paul have a social network to choose a qualified press secretary among?

Even within politics itself, politicians have to be thick skinned to compete for what they want. If a politician isn't socially sophisticated, then the politician won't be able to stand tall or bother others to compete for attention. Due process itself takes resources, and if a politician is constantly clamoring for due process, even judges and parliamentarians will get frustrated. Even more so, one person clamoring for due process can only argue so much against others clamoring for due process. Filibuster speeches are a perfect example. The best speech giver can only go on and on for about a day, once done, the opposition is still going to be there, waiting for chance to call for a vote...

...so it doesn't seem Ron Paul and libertarians are really being criticized for being racist. Rather they're being criticized for being socially outcast. It's the same reason people don't like Ron Paul because he sounds like your grandma who never gets out of the house.
#13913474
Your posts make for extremely confusing reading Dak. You seem to randomly jump from one concept to another without creating any sort of coherent argument. There are several points that need clarification before a debate can be had on this OP:

- There is a complete disconnect between your description of the libertarian unpopularity, and your description of this idea of "sophistication" (which is not at all clearly defined). While a relationship may be guessed at, it needs to be clearly spelled out.

- there are two ideas presented about why libertarians are outcasts - first you say they don't take social values seriously, then you talk about the importance of "sophistication" (which isn't really clearly defined). Is there a connection between the two? If so what? Does the latter reflect what trully represents what is going on with Ron Paul - and therefore the former is just a ruse? This is never explained.

- where does the accusations of racism fit in? You start and finish your post as if thats what its going to be all about - yet the body is talking about a concept that is never related back to the original question about racism.

- what do you mean by "due process" - another concept that seems to be randomly thrown in without giving any sort of explanation about what you mean by it.

- who exactly are you talking about - Ron Paul? libertarians associated with Ron Paul? Libertarian Republicans? Libertarians in general? Can they all be lumped into the same basket? Who exactly is"socially outcast", and what is the nature of it?
#13913661
GandalfTheGrey wrote:- There is a complete disconnect between your description of the libertarian unpopularity, and your description of this idea of "sophistication" (which is not at all clearly defined). While a relationship may be guessed at, it needs to be clearly spelled out.

- there are two ideas presented about why libertarians are outcasts - first you say they don't take social values seriously, then you talk about the importance of "sophistication" (which isn't really clearly defined). Is there a connection between the two? If so what? Does the latter reflect what trully represents what is going on with Ron Paul - and therefore the former is just a ruse? This is never explained.


I thought I defined sophistication rather well...

    In social terms, "sophistication" isn't about being logically correct. Sophistication is about being classy. It's about having economic power and social layers such that you're protected from being... TROLLED by fallacious criticism.

The relationship is how social values are necessary to construct social layers. Literally, to establish a social network, you need to have common values and respectable organization with people around you.

----------

GandalfTheGrey wrote:- where does the accusations of racism fit in? You start and finish your post as if thats what its going to be all about - yet the body is talking about a concept that is never related back to the original question about racism.

- what do you mean by "due process" - another concept that seems to be randomly thrown in without giving any sort of explanation about what you mean by it.


In a nutshell, due process is about respecting agency. Whether we're talking about parliamentary procedure or illegal immigration doesn't matter. Due process doesn't allow for arbitrary hierarchy where someone's agency is controlled by someone else's.

When progressives talk about racism being the motive against illegal immigration, they're creating arbitrary hierarchy by saying native agency should be subservient to immigrant agency. Natives lose agency over saying who is allowed in their jurisdiction.

At first, progressives seem to be unsophisticated, but I explained why they're not:

    Due process itself takes resources, and if a politician is constantly clamoring for due process, even judges and parliamentarians will get frustrated.

Libertarians are ignoring how due process takes resources to be upheld, resources which immigrant labor can provide, resources which conservatives hold back because libertarians ignore social values.

Ergo, progressives are more sophisticated than libertarians.

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GandalfTheGrey wrote:- who exactly are you talking about - Ron Paul? libertarians associated with Ron Paul? Libertarian Republicans? Libertarians in general? Can they all be lumped into the same basket? Who exactly is"socially outcast", and what is the nature of it?


Libertarians.

Libertarians are outcast because (as I just said) they're ignoring how due process requires resources, resources which require either progressive institutions or conservative social values.
#13916244
In a nutshell, due process is about respecting agency. Whether we're talking about parliamentary procedure or illegal immigration doesn't matter. Due process doesn't allow for arbitrary hierarchy where someone's agency is controlled by someone else's.


What does that mean in English?

Libertarians are outcast because (as I just said) they're ignoring how due process requires resources, resources which require either progressive institutions or conservative social values


Or perhaps it is the French. The fucking French are behind most of this sophistication stuff. Do you think that it is an accident that the French word for sophistication is sophistiqué? Do you think they are just copying the root English word? Oh no my friend. Or as we say in French, "avoir un chat dans la gorge". Oh yes. And then is it any surprise that the root word for sophisticated is sophistry? C'est la fin des haricots as you might say.

Responding to your posts requires considerable thought. I feel I should use the word solipsism. I should. But I wold leave myself exposed to accusations that I had to readily abandoned obfuscation and was therefor withdrawing from the discussion. We couldn't have that, could we? Arrête ton char. n'est-ce pas?

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