[Michaeluj]

Michaeluj had it right. I've never heard of a Libertarian capable of making a rational argument on how to develop the Third World.

No, I just said that the OP's argument is sloppy.
But at least you're acknowledging that I'm not sympathetic to any lame-brained jargon that fellow libertarians state.

[J Oswald]

I meant for the second sentence to be read independently of the first sentence. My mistake.

[Phred]

Okay, before I go any further, I need to check something. Have any of you libertarians ever spent time in a country that is not a first world country, and which has a high level of wealth disparity?

I moved from Canada to the Dominican Republic almost two dozen years ago. I can assure you that despite the Department of Tourism's protestations to the contrary, most of the Dominican Republic qualifies for Third Status. And we have wealth disparity out the wazoo.

If 'yes', then I can give a short response, but if 'no', then it means I'm going to have to explain the whole psychology of what would happen, and how I actually would not have all this disposable income that you think I would have, because I'd be suddenly needing to spend money on things that I never had to spend money on usually.

*Phred pulls up chair, munches popcorn*

I almost get the feeling that you all are not realising that it does cost actual money if the state is not doing things that you take for granted. I can't fathom how you all can be telling me that I would magically have more disposable income, when - for instance - you are going to abolish the police and then expect me to be happy about saving that tax money, despite the fact that I'd immediately have to spend it on more security. Etc.

You are confusing Libertarians with An-Caps (Anarcho-Capitalists). No Libertarian, as defined by the forum description here at PoFo, would ever suggest eliminating military, courts, prisons, or the police. That's the stance of An-Caps like Eran, not of Libertarians.

As for needing to spend money on things I as a Canadian usually never spent money on:

I pay to have my garbage picked up. The amount is trivial. I don't have kids, but if I did, I would have to pay to have them sent to school. No free education here. But again, the cost is trivial. Astoundingly low, in fact. If I need the actual assistance of a cop, I had better be prepared to "tip" him somewhere between ten to twenty-five bucks to get him to actually do his job: fill out a report I can take to the insurance company, whatever. In the twenty-three and a half years I've lived there so far, I've spent a grand total of maybe a hundred bucks on bribes to cops and inspectors. Maybe a hundred and fifty, tops. I swear I am not making this up.

I pay for all my medical treatment as I need it. But doctors (and dentists) are very inexpensive here, as is medical insurance. I can guarantee I have spent far, far less on medical care in the last two dozen years than I would have had extracted from my paychecks in provincial income tax earmarked for medicare, federal income tax earmarked for matching funds for medicare, and payroll deductions going straight to medicare (Ontario Health Insurance Plan premiums - a mandatory monthly "premium" deducted automatically from every paycheck). As well, generic medications are freely available at lower cost - far lower cost - than I can get the same generic medications for in Canada. Typically half the price, sometimes just a third the price. Imaging is cheap, too - a set of X-rays that costs $140 in Ottawa costs $33 in Cabarete. Ultrasound the same. Even MRIs cheaper by a lot. And no waiting, unlike the literally months-long wait in Canada.

Cost to renew driver's licence? Peanuts. Cost to renew licence plates? Peanuts. Safety inspections and pollution testing? Less than peanuts.

So go ahead, Rei... enlighten me on just how much more money I'm spending in my Third World country than I would be if I still lived in Canada. I'm always up for a good laugh.






Phred

[ThePublicOpinions]

Since police do a great many things that would be immoral in a free and voluntary society, yes, we will POCKET THE SAVINGS, on quite a deal of 'policing'. We wouldn't have to pay for the cops to spy on us, to harass us, to lock us in jail if we demonstrate contempt towards them, we wouldn't have to pay prison guards to beat prisoners who committed the crime of consuming the wrong substance. Instead of lengthy prison terms, offenders would be forced to pay heavy fines payable to the victim. Lest anyone charge this would be a miscarriage of justice, let me remind you that this is already the case with our modern legal system. If you can pay a fine you do so, or you get a very good lawyer and get a minimal sentence, if you cannot you go to jail. The whole idea of jails is for the most part unnecessary. We would be far better off simply to shun or outcast any petty criminals and to put to death murders, and perhaps enslave the very worst of the non murderers in salt mines or the like. But we wouldn't need laws or police to make sure no one smokes the cheeba, or to harass property owners for not complying with the exact by-law of some idiot bureaucrat, nor would the vast majority of the nightwatchman state be necessary. Courts, to be sure, but I see no argument here for government monopoly as in any other industry. Of course those who live outside the law would quickly become persona non gratis and so there would be a great incentive towards following the rules that society voluntarily agrees upon through various terms of arbitrage.

[Rei Murasame]

I moved from Canada to the Dominican Republic almost two dozen years ago. I can assure you that despite the Department of Tourism's protestations to the contrary, most of the Dominican Republic qualifies for Third Status. And we have wealth disparity out the wazoo.

Okay, so that's one person who's done it then. This should be interesting, as I wonder if your experiences will be anything like mine were?

*Phred pulls up chair, munches popcorn*

I don't know how you can be munching popcorn when you are about to hand me my point on a plate..:

In the twenty-three and a half years I've lived there so far, I've spent a grand total of maybe a hundred bucks on bribes to cops and inspectors. Maybe a hundred and fifty, tops. I swear I am not making this up.

I know what you mean, although the method my family used was also trying to make friends with them as well so that we would have certain people in the force that we could go and be like, "so I need a little help on something here..."

For various reasons, most people living in First World countries perceive this sort of stuff, like bribing police, wining and dining police, etc, as being.... what's the word I'm looking for... oh right, corruption.

The difference between us on this is that you see to think that it's all very acceptable behaviour, whereas in our case we knew that we were gaming a backward system.

Really, I can't believe that your response to my point was to actually bring the issue of bribery and put it on the table.

[Phred]

I don't know how you can be munching popcorn when you are about to hand me my point on a plate..:

Your point was that we Libertarians would weep and wail and gnash our teeth at the reduction of disposable income we would inevitably experience in a Third World country, since we would have to pay for stuff the government handles in the more developed countries. I just demonstrated that my experience was exactly the reverse - I pay far, far less for services in the Dominican Republic not provided by government than I used to pay the Canadian government (in confiscatory tax levels) for those same services. I pay a ridiculously small amount of my income to the Dominican government.

The difference between us on this is that you see to think that it's all very acceptable behaviour, whereas in our case we knew that we were gaming a backward system.

Of course it's acceptable behavior. If I don't need a theft report or an accident report for the insurance company, I don't pay them a dime. If I don't need them to ticket the doofus who is blasting Reggaeton from his car at deafening levels at three in the morning, I don't pay them a dime. But if they do resolve these nuisances for me, I don't mind tipping them the cost of a MacDonald's Happy Meal. It's not like I need to do it very often.

Really, I can't believe that your response to my point was to actually bring the issue of bribery and put it on the table.

Yet I could easily believe you would blithely ignore the fact I had destroyed your false assertion about less disposable income and instead try to divert the audience with the bribery non-issue. I guess I know you better than you know me.




Phred

[Smertios]

You are confusing Libertarians with An-Caps (Anarcho-Capitalists). No Libertarian, as defined by the forum description here at PoFo, would ever suggest eliminating military, courts, prisons, or the police. That's the stance of An-Caps like Eran, not of Libertarians.

Apparently, you are the one who is confusing what libertarianism really is about. Libertarianism is simply the branch of liberalism that puts individual liberty as the main criteria (or the only one, sometimes) for organizing the society. As the forum description says, it is the ideology that puts "the individual before the state", in a "non-interventionist, free-market based society". And there are basically two "flavors" of libertarians: minarchists and anarchists (or anarcho-capitalists, as you called them - this term is used more to differ it from the socialist/communist/leftist anarchism).

I agree that most of the most if not all libertarians who post here are minarchists, not anarchists. But the fact remains that either way, what they defend is quite similar. I've seen a lot of libertarians defending the privatization of the police and the military. I've even seen libertarians defending the privatization of prisons. And those were all minarchist libertarians, not anarchist ones. I've never seen anyone suggesting the privatization of the court system, but I'm sure someone out there does that as well...

And this forum also lists classical liberalism as part of libertarianism. While I, as a classical liberal, don't really agree with that, I do accept the official stance of the board on the matter. I kind of agree that, out of all other boards, this is the best one for classical liberalism anyway.

[Rei Murasame]

I pay far, far less for services in the Dominican Republic not provided by government than I used to pay the Canadian government (in confiscatory tax levels) for those same services.

How often do you use the doctor there? We can compare notes on this, because I would be very interested to know if you've ever been seriously ill.

Of course it's acceptable behavior. If I don't need a theft report or an accident report for the insurance company, I don't pay them a dime. If I don't need them to ticket the doofus who is blasting Reggaeton from his car at deafening levels at three in the morning, I don't pay them a dime. But if they do resolve these nuisances for me, I don't mind tipping them the cost of a MacDonald's Happy Meal. It's not like I need to do it very often.

The cost of a Happy Meal? Are you kidding me?

I don't know what kind of cheap-ass police you were dealing with, in my experience the price of a Happy Meal will not buy you a favour. It would probably be more likely to be insulting to them that you would think that's all they are worth.

Now I know why you think it's cheaper, you are throwing pennies at them for trivial matters?

[Lightman]

You are confusing Libertarians with An-Caps (Anarcho-Capitalists). No Libertarian, as defined by the forum description here at PoFo, would ever suggest eliminating military, courts, prisons, or the police. That's the stance of An-Caps like Eran, not of Libertarians.

Phred, to be honest it amuses me that you keep up with this insistence that an-caps aren't part of your movement. Basically everyone else, libertarian or otherwise, knows that an-caps are libertarians. Insisting otherwise is really just comical.

[Michaeluj]

The difference between them is like a very-left Liberal and a socialist. They share the same sentiments, but neither wish to accompany them in their defensive arguments.

[Phred]

How often do you use the doctor there? We can compare notes on this, because I would be very interested to know if you've ever been seriously ill.

Define "seriously ill". Besides, as I have already noted, I can choose to buy medical insurance. It is not particularly expensive here. Actually, considering that I'm no longer exactly a spring chicken, I probably should get around to buying some.

I don't know what kind of cheap-ass police you were dealing with, in my experience the price of a Happy Meal will not buy you a favour. It would probably be more likely to be insulting to them that you would think that's all they are worth.

Now I know why you think it's cheaper, you are throwing pennies at them for trivial matters?

That's the going rate here. Your experience is irrelevant. You are the one who invited readers to discuss their Third World experiences, remember? That's what I'm doing.

As for me doing this only for trivial matters, that's my whole point - my police-related costs are so low because I only need to pay them to handle the "trivial matters". The non-trivial matters they do actually handle without anyone tipping them - tracking down violent criminals, thieves, etc.

The more astute readers cannot help noting your continued avoidance of my destruction of your false assertion about less disposable income while still trying to divert the audience with the bribery non-issue.




Phred

[Phred]

Phred, to be honest it amuses me that you keep up with this insistence that an-caps aren't part of your movement. Basically everyone else, libertarian or otherwise, knows that an-caps are libertarians. Insisting otherwise is really just comical.

I long ago exhaustively debunked the mistaken notion that Libertarians as defined by the forum description here at PoFo include AnCaps. I'm not going to repeat myself here. If you wish to dispute the indisputable, do so in the appropriate thread, not in this one.




Phred

[myrmeleo]

I long ago exhaustively debunked the mistaken notion that Libertarians as defined by the forum description here at PoFo include AnCaps. I'm not going to repeat myself here. If you wish to dispute the indisputable, do so in the appropriate thread, not in this one.

Haha, I remember that thread. It was everyone (left libertarians, right libertarians, moderates, socialists, and all flavors of anarchists) telling you that you were wrong, and then you repeatedly bolding the words "in this forum" as if suddenly someone would swoop down and say, "wait! All of you, it's okay that Phred is wrong because it is in this forum!"

[Kman]

It was amusing to read how indignated people got at Tropicalk, these people are outraged!

As for any moral responsibility towards the third world, I dont think we have any, I say let them starve if they are poor, then there will be less of them so the risk of future famines will be reduced.

I only believe in local charity.

[grassroots1]

Indignated is not a word.

[Kman]

Indignated is not a word.

It is in danish!

[Rei Murasame]

Besides, as I have already noted, I can choose to buy medical insurance. It is not particularly expensive here. Actually, considering that I'm no longer exactly a spring chicken, I probably should get around to buying some.

Oh, you are not even paying for health insurance at the moment then?

That's the going rate here. Your experience is irrelevant.

Then congratulations on finding the easiest-to-bribe policemen on earth, I envy you.

The more astute readers cannot help noting your continued avoidance of my destruction of your false assertion about less disposable income while still trying to divert the audience with the bribery non-issue.

Maybe we should all mark the Dominican Republic on our lists of places to build a summer home on then. This doesn't comprise a 'destruction' of any 'false' assertions, but it does show that you've found a place and a scenario where it works for you.

[Phred]

Oh, you are not even paying for health insurance at the moment then?

Correct. If I need to see a doctor, I pay him out of my own pocket. Same with dentists. Same with auto mechanics and cops and electricians and the guys that pick up my garbage.

This doesn't comprise a 'destruction' of any 'false' assertions, but it does show that you've found a place and a scenario where it works for you.

Since I'm the only one who bothered replying to your request, that necessarily means one hundred per cent of your respondents have destroyed your false assertions.



Phred

[Politicalwanderer]

So because YOU believe something, then WE should all chip in to help the third world. I personally do not give a rats ass about all these billions of worthless individuals toiling away. In fact, I believe the world would be a better place if Somalians just died already.

Do you value your life? That is, do you pursue an interest in being alive? I'm assuming the answer is yes given you spend time here. Given this 'yes', on what basis vcan you logically say your desire to be alive is more important the desire of some African guy? If you act to fulfill the interest of being alive, knowing that there is another with the same elementary interests, why do you not work to help him also?

[Eran]

I agree with TropicalK's sentiment that nobody should be forced to help the third world. It is also the case that the vast majority of funds going into foreign aid do nothing or next to nothing to help the very poor.

The best solution for third world problems (in order of increasing controversality) are:
1. Remove any trade barriers (allowing people to help themselves)
2. Stop government-to-government foreign aid (it only props dictators)
3. Allow open immigration (so that people can get out from under the yolk of their leaders)