[mikema63]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vDhcqua3_W8

just found this and thought it was interesting, the end of the video has links for the studies and they pop up as speech bubbles throughout.

i dont know how to imbed video though sorry.

[Decky]

No shit Sherlock.

Our epoch, the epoch of the bourgeoisie, possesses, however, this distinct feature: it has simplified class antagonisms. Society as a whole is more and more splitting up into two great hostile camps, into two great classes directly facing each other — Bourgeoisie and Proletariat.

As the Capitalists accumulate more and more wealth the middle class are slowly destroyed creating just two classes with the wealth of those from the bottom and the middle constantly funneled upwards until they are left with nothing.

[mikema63]

what on earth are you talking about decky? did you watch the video at all?

[Rilzik]

All youtube web addresses with end with a = followed by some letters and numbers. All you have to do is copy and paste everything after the = sign, hit the URL button (it's located ^^ up there somewhere) to get this [url][/url] from that you replace url with the word youtube for example [youtube][/youtube], then put the string of characters from the youtube video between them.

don't include the * to make the code work.

[youtube]*vDhcqua3_W8[/youtube]

[youtube]vDhcqua3_W8[/youtube]

[Decky]

what on earth are you talking about decky? did you watch the video at all?

No, it was posted by a Libertarian, why would I have?

[mikema63]

Rilzik thank you very much

decky its the central subject of the thread why would you post without even knowing what was under discussion. not only that but this is a forum for you to be exposed to the ideas of others and to expose others to your ideas, why wouldn't you watch it? im not saying its the end of all discussion on the topic but how exactly does ignoring the other sides arguments get you anywhere?

[Decky]

I listen to the arguments of the Capitalists, the social liberals and even the fascists. Libertarianism however is below me.

I am firmly convinced that once someone has got to the point they believe that trash there is no point even trying. They are past the point of no return.

But if you really want me to engage with that video...

The reason that the American working class seems to have improved their condition is that the worst parts of capitalism were exported. You didn't ban child labour you just moved it. Without 12 year old girls working 10 hours a day 7 days a week in sweat shops his supposed increase in living standards wouldn't exist.

Typing that was a waste of my time, you will now proceed to ignore it and write "the freer the marker the freer the people.

[mikema63]

"the freer the marker the freer the people.

ill ignore the temptation of writing it and just quote you.

as for child labor it exists in newly industrialized countries not because the children are forced or the parents are evil but because its the best available alternative. as countries grow richer and more industrialized child labor is no longer used because parents can become wealthy enough on their own to keep their children out of the necessity of working. if child labor were legalized i doubt american children would end up working.

the data apparently shows that people dont stay poor, they just grow richer with time and are replaced by new entrants. so i dont even know what child labor has to do with that, and the period in the study also wasn't at any point subject to child labor.

if libertarianism is beneath you and we are all past the point of no return why on earth do you post in the libertarian section? also if you argue with capitalists and social liberals why are libertarians left out? what special part of libertarianism makes it unworthy of your mighty arguments?

[Decky]

as for child labor it exists in newly industrialized countries not because the children are forced or the parents are evil but because its the best available alternative. as countries grow richer and more industrialized child labor is no longer used because parents can become wealthy enough on their own to keep their children out of the necessity of working. if child labor were legalized i doubt american children would end up working.

The whole sytem relies upon it, without child Labour and a host of other brutal practices used in the factories of the developing world, the high standard of living in the west could not be maintained. You video ingores the fact that capitalism is a global sytem. This makes it worthless.

if libertarianism is beneath you and we are all past the point of no return why on earth do you post in the libertarian section? also if you argue with capitalists and social liberals why are libertarians left out? what special part of libertarianism makes it unworthy of your mighty arguments?

Why not? Until the pub quiz tonight I have nothing better I feel like doing.

also if you argue with capitalists and social liberals why are libertarians left out? what special part of libertarianism makes it unworthy of your mighty arguments?

Oh I don't think there is anything special about my arguments; it is bellow anybody. This is because it is not a realistic problem. Somalia is the only libertarian country and what countries have a significant libertarian movement? The US.

It isn't really much of a problem in the civilied world.

[mikema63]

The whole sytem relies upon it, without child Labour and a host of other brutal practices used in the factories of the developing world, the high standard of living in the west could not be maintained. You video ingores the fact that capitalism is a global sytem. This makes it worthless.

well i knew i was arguing with someone who believed vastly different economic theories than me so i didn't really expect you to agree. suffice it to say i think the accumulation of capital raises the standard of living and that child labour is not something that must exist for capitalism to continue.

Why not? Until the pub quiz tonight I have nothing better I feel like doing.

well the point is to debate, not just blurb out your ideology. also whats a pub quiz?

Somalia is the only libertarian country

yes i remember advocating for warlords to vie over power and kill each other

[Decky]

well i knew i was arguing with someone who believed vastly different economic theories than me so i didn't really expect you to agree. suffice it to say i think the accumulation of capital raises the standard of living and that child labour is not something that must exist for capitalism to continue.

So how will cheap clothes and other items appear to sustain western living standards? By magic?

well the point is to debate, not just blurb out your ideology. also whats a pub quiz?

It is a quiz in a pub.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Pub+Quiz

yes i remember advocating for warlords to vie over power and kill each other

You might not want it, but if your ideas were put into practice that is exactly what would happen.

[mikema63]

So how will cheap clothes and other items appear to sustain western living standards? By magic?

capital accumulation and automation, allowing for less workers to produce more.

It is a quiz in a pub.

oh, well ive never been to a pub so how was i supposed to know (i thought it was some kind of school test)

You might not want it, but if your ideas were put into practice that is exactly what would happen

somalia is contoled by a bunch of warlords who use direct violence to enforce their will, a lack of central government hardly makes it libertarian.

i could make the same argument with north korea or the USSR about communism, its a simplistic argument that has no more relavence for libertarianism than it does for communism.

[Nunt]

I listen to the arguments of the Capitalists, the social liberals and even the fascists. Libertarianism however is below me.

You do know that you are reading in the "libertarianism" subforum right? If you want to close your mind to libertarian ideas, feel free to. But leave others free to discuss. Nobody here needs a troll. If you don't want to discuss, then don't.

[Jon__Persson]

Libertarianism however is below me.

1. If you think Libertarianism is in any way below you, why are you browsing the Libertarian sub forum of PoliticsForum.org?
2. I suggest you stop being such a narrow minded jerk. Just because someone doesn't share your idea of ultimate freedom/whatever, doesn't mean you have the right to act superior to that someone. That is the problem with people like you, you don't have any real valid arguments, so you'd rather kill or imprison dissidents rather than try to prove them wrong.

[Decky]

1. If you think Libertarianism is in any way below you, why are you browsing the Libertarian sub forum of PoliticsForum.org?

It's a fair cop I guess. I'll be off after this.

2. I suggest you stop being such a narrow minded jerk. Just because someone doesn't share your idea of ultimate freedom/whatever, doesn't mean you have the right to act superior to that someone. That is the problem with people like you, you don't have any real valid arguments, so you'd rather kill or imprison dissidents rather than try to prove them wrong.

It has nothing to do with that. I don't mind debating with the fascists, the conservatives or the centre left; they are all people I disagree with. It just seems sort of pointless even trying with libertarians I suppose. The other people may be wrong but have views grounded in the real world, libertarians are so divorced from reality that there is no point really.

[mikema63]

this thread is way off track at this point

[Jon__Persson]

this thread is way off track at this point

It is. I guess there isn't much about the video to discuss. The guy made a valid point which most people browsing the Libertarian sub forum probably agrees with.

(...) libertarians are so divorced from reality that there is no point really.

You know, it's funny you should say that, because I have not come across a political theory that is as delusional as the one you're representing.

The other people may be wrong but have views grounded in the real world,

I am firmly convinced that once someone has got to the point they believe that trash there is no point even trying. They are past the point of no return.

I believe, my good sir, that you are past that "point of no return" you were talking about.

[RhetoricThug]

No, it was posted by a Libertarian, why would I have?

My thoughts exactly, but "Mikema63," isn't just that, he also endorses sweat shops so he can wear his Nike pullover. Of course, thats borderline slander, I'm sorry.

Decky has it right though! Your standard of living increase is just supplied from developing countries. This is also how consumerism has become borderline extreme in most- what do you call em' "1st World countries".

How does that rate again...
1. The United States and allies
2. Communists
3. Resource rich