[mum]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this will work out, if it goes ahead...

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/11/private-city-in-honduras-will-have-minimal-taxes-government/

[SolarCross]

Interesting, but I wouldn't get too starry eyed about it just yet. The city will have a private corporation for a government, and it will charge taxes they just won't be called taxes, they will be called service charges or similar. Instead of being ordered around by corrupt bureaucrats you will be ordered around by corrupt executives. So you or I will still be told what to do and how to behave and still have all our disposable income removed but without even the slightest notion that we should have any say whatsoever in how things are done and who is in charge because you know it will all be private property not public property.

[mikema63]

Their testing corpratocracy in real life now? Should be interesting, though how they came to own the land is important, unless the built the city it's certainly not a libertarian experiment.

Edit: they are building the city, well then as long as everyone enters and leaves voluntarily then it will be a libertarian experiment. I wonder Joe the property right laws will turn out, can you own a building in the city etc.

[Less_State]

Let's see how this experiment is going to work .

I hope that Honduras will confirm the good example of Hong Kong and finally open the doors to Laissez Faire Capitalism (Austrian Economics School ) .

[Decky]

The poor will be starving in gutters in no time and the rich will be much richer than they started. A libertarian success story.

[mikema63]

If they are successful what are you planning as a refutation?

[Decky]

If they are successful what are you planning as a refutation?

They will be successful, lots more wealth will go upwards, that is what they are trying to achieve.

If you mean how would I refute it if it went well for the working class then I don't need to plan for that. It's libertarianism if there was profit in it you would be piling them into gas chambers.

[Eauz]

I hope that Honduras will confirm the good example of Hong Kong and finally open the doors to Laissez Faire Capitalism (Austrian Economics School ) .

Yes, I bet Hondurans can't wait to rent a cage to live in.

[mum]

Interesting, but I wouldn't get too starry eyed about it just yet.

Yes, I completely agree, we need to just see how it turns out.

The city will have a private corporation for a government, and it will charge taxes they just won't be called taxes, they will be called service charges or similar.

You don't know this, it might be true but just wait and see

Instead of being ordered around by corrupt bureaucrats you will be ordered around by corrupt executives. So you or I will still be told what to do and how to behave and still have all our disposable income removed but without even the slightest notion that we should have any say whatsoever in how things are done and who is in charge because you know it will all be private property not public property.

Again, until we know the details, don't presume it will be an immediate failure. Maybe it will be very free, who knows.

The city is being built on previously unused land, away from any other civilisation (that's what the article says)

There won't really be poor, not to start off with anyway, unless you consider the basic employed labour the "poor".
It will also be VOLUNTARY as far as I know, give it a chance will you commies ?
I would also like to see a communist city in the same way, as an experiment (even though we have some good history on how that usually turns out), however I would be open minded towards a new attempt, either way.

[mikema63]

I doubt they will build In cages till later, HK got pretty overpopulated it seems.

[Less_State]

I doubt they will build In cages till later, HK got pretty overpopulated it seems.

Every thing that isn't based on Communist principles is a bad thing for leftist .

Even if the cities improve the life of the Honduran People they still say it's exploitation of the worker and many more things .

[Eauz]

It's good, you guys don't even pretend anymore that you support quazi-feualistic policies.

[mum]

It's good, you guys don't even pretend anymore that you support quazi-feualistic policies.

I'm really enjoying your valuable contributions to this thread mate

[Nunt]

Yes, I bet Hondurans can't wait to rent a cage to live in.

How do you know poor living conditions is a fault of economic freedom and not just poverty? There's a lot of countries whose government intervene a lot in the economy, but who still have slums.

[Eauz]

How do you know poor living conditions is a fault of economic freedom and not just poverty?

So, you are saying that poverty can exist outside of the economic structure of a society?

[mikema63]

A lack of essential goods can exist outside of any specific economic system yes.

My guess about HK would be tiny island nobody is willing to leave even if they have to stuff themselves into cages, I do believe that China is right next door if these people feel that their lot would be better off there. As a matter of fact it would seem china was worse than I thought.

[Eran]

The substitution of a corporate for political government should test Hoppe's views on Democracy vs. Monarchy. His main point is that democratic decision-makers are inherently short-termist. They benefit from their position of power while in office, and care little (or not at all) for the longer-term consequences of their policies.

A monarch, in his view (or a corporate owner in this instance) has his interests aligned with the long-term well-being of his territories. In fact, a corporate government should work better than a monarch, as stock markets effectively convert long-term consequences into short-term capital gains.

So while an impatient monarch might be tempted to "squeeze out" his kingdom, corporate managers are typically compensated in reference to their stock price, which incorporates the long-term prospects of the corporation (as assessed by share-holders, many of which, like pension funds, have long-term perspective).

So, you are saying that poverty can exist outside of the economic structure of a society?

I'm not sure what that means. Poverty is the natural state of humans. Technology and markets (through division of labour) elevated most humans above their natural level of poverty. That rise has been everywhere (though not nearly by the same extent) slowed or hampered by those who use force to exploit the productive members of society.

In most societies, those exploiters are either the government, or those closely-linked to it.

[Eauz]

A lack of essential goods can exist outside of any specific economic system yes.

Regardless if you live in a complex state or in the middle of nowhere with no connection to any state/society, you're still situated within a specific socioeconomic system, regardless if you are aware of it or not. The fact that someone is essential intends that a socioeconomic system exists.

Poverty is the natural state of humans.

Poverty is not a natural state of anything. If you want to suggest this, then the majority of the world, including plants and animals are in poverty. Poverty exists through a socioeconomic system. Humans have never existed in a vacuum , so it is idiocy to suggest that.

My guess about HK would be tiny island nobody is willing to leave even if they have to stuff themselves into cages, I do believe that China is right next door if these people feel that their lot would be better off there. As a matter of fact it would seem china was worse than I thought.

Right, because if I'm barely capable of renting a cage, I'm going to be able to afford to move myself out of the area.

[mikema63]

Is China not accepting new workers into the slave force anymore?

This makes me sad as I was hoping to go for my retirement where they respect the elderly.

Or maybe we should wait until the city runs for a while before jumping to random conclusions? Or perhaps not take a single aspect of a complex system of social and economic interaction like a city as representative of the whole?

How are you defining poverty by the way, its rather important to know since we are supposed to be speculating on your definition that apparently is not the same as the one we are working with.

[Eauz]

Mike, in the end, lolbertarian ideology is based upon a dictatorial presence ruling over society. You can put as much make-up on the issue, what it boils down to is this fact. Coercion exists in all societies in various forms. To tell me that once these characters were born, they thought, I would love to be living in one of those dog cages, is absurd.