[Kman]

I am getting sick and tired of various types of statists using Somalia as some sort of example of how freedom does not work, Somalia is not a free country, if I start a factory in Somalia I might not get taxed by the official government but the local ruling warlord will show up at my factory and demand I pay him tribute in order to keep operating, effectively acting just like a government.

Government is force, a warlord threatening you with bodily harm if you dont do what he says is just like any other form of government official demanding you pay or else bad things happen too you.

[Beren]

There is not any libertarian country on earth then?

[ThereBeDragons]

I am getting sick and tired of various types of statists using Somalia as some sort of example of how freedom does not work, Somalia is not a free country, if I start a factory in Somalia I might not get taxed by the official government but the local ruling warlord will show up at my factory and demand I pay him tribute in order to keep operating, effectively acting just like a government.

Government is force, a warlord threatening you with bodily harm if you dont do what he says is just like any other form of government official demanding you pay or else bad things happen too you.

The warlord is simply a criminal. In a libertarian society, as in any other society, I can still come to your house with a gun and demanding you turn over the television. There is, of course, nothing you can do about it except turn over the television - unless you would like to kill me (as you could kill the warlord) or hire a security service to kill me or at least stop me from threatening you (as you could hire a private military company to kill or fend off the warlord.)

[Godstud]

Thailand gets close to Libertarian. Most things are pay as you go. Most freedoms are not curtailed, unless they infringe on another person's.

Even so, you can do things here that would beggar the imagination, in Canada/US, but get a curious glance, here. Telling people to be safe isn't high on that list of things to do.

Some things like medical treatment have a different priority because the King decided long ago that his people's health was of optimum importance. hence drugs companies don't make a killing here. Heck, I buy Tylenol Extra Strength for 1Ђ a tablet($0.03 USD), and you can buy almost anything, including valium, across the counter.

Still, corruption, which does exist( I don't think any society can be free from it), doesn't tend to be as 'top heavy', as some places, even if it is far more visible.

I think Somalia is close to an anarchy, or at least a feudal society.

[Beren]

Thailand is cool, a much better place to live than Denmark.

If you're a Danish retiree.

[Godstud]

No monopoly laws either. You get 4 convenience stores within a block and they ALL do decently(none of that Starbucks bullshit). Limited government interference, too.

[The Immortal Goon]

As a Somali warlord, I'm sick and tired of libertarians picking and choosing when they are libertarians and crying when they lose.

They set up a business here. Great. I tell them that they can use my resources and my public at a price. Then they go blubbering like babies because there's not an evil statist system here to forcibly regulate everyone the way that they want it to be regulated.

You've never seen such a mess of pathetic crybabies willing to go back on everything they believe and demand the population be coerced to benefit them.

Come here and start a factory. I will generously let you use my resources and people as you see fit, even pollute my land, in exchange for a fair price. Further, I'll make sure no accidents happen to your factory and keep local rebels in line-for just a little bit of money.

What's not fair about that?

[Kman]

The warlord is simply a criminal. In a libertarian society, as in any other society, I can still come to your house with a gun and demanding you turn over the television. There is, of course, nothing you can do about it except turn over the television - unless you would like to kill me (as you could kill the warlord) or hire a security service to kill me or at least stop me from threatening you (as you could hire a private military company to kill or fend off the warlord.)

Let us say a libertarian colony was started somewhere in North America and it was a town of 50.000 people who shared my opinions on justice more or less, you know what would happen if you came over to my house and tried robbing me? The local neighborhood watch group and or local private security company would come to my aid and if you resisted arrest you would get yourself killed.
Now does this happen in Somalia? No it does not because Somalians are not libertarians, they do not support private property rights and for the most part they would cheer on if a local warlord decided to confiscate the property of a local factory owner, this is a radically different culture than what I described above and it is a decidedly un-libertarian state of affairs, in the somalian case they do have tons of force and theft, it just does not officially call itself government even though it acts just like one.

[The Immortal Goon]

You know, the warlord would consider himself the private security backed by like minded individuals you're speaking about.

And some libertarians agree.

http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf

[ThereBeDragons]

You know what would happen if you came over to my house and tried robbing me? The local neighborhood watch group and or local private security company would come to my aid and if you resisted arrest you would get yourself killed.

So hire yourself a private security company in Somalia. Presumably you're paying for your American security, as well.

Neighborhood watch groups are fine, but you can't expect people to put themselves in harms way for free.

for the most part they would cheer on if a local warlord decided to confiscate the property of a local factory owner

They can cheer for whoever they like. As long as they are not personally seizing your factory, they are not criminals, and if they are criminals, your private security service can simply shoot them.

[Kman]

So hire yourself a private security company in Somalia. Presumably you're paying for your American security, as well.

Yeah I am sure that would end really well in Somalia, a country where most people hate private property, I am sure me and my lets say 5 other guys working in my private security company will do great vs a couple of thousand if not more angry socialist somalians all demanding I give them some of my money.

[Godstud]

The great equalizer:

Thousands of angry socialist Somalis? No problem.

[ThereBeDragons]

Yeah I am sure that would end really well in Somalia, a country where most people hate private property, I am sure me and my lets say 5 other guys working in my private security company will do great vs a couple of thousand if not more angry socialist somalians all demanding I give them some of my money.

You should have hired yourself a better private security company. Like, say, the local warlord. He seems to have enough guns to keep the angry thieves in check.

[Kman]

You should have hired yourself a better private security company. Like, say, the local warlord. He seems to have enough guns to keep the angry thieves in check.

Yeah I guess I should not settle for a security company with 5 employees, I should just hire every person with a pulse within a 30 mile radius of my factory and pay them 10.000 dollars per month in order to make sure I dont get attacked but tell me please, am I then a free person when I have to spend all my money on what essentially amounts to security bribes? And is this situation any cheaper than simply paying the lets say 50% or 60% tribute that the local warlord is demanding?

If you had a country solely populated by people like me you would not even have to hire any security forces at all.

[ThereBeDragons]

am I then a free person when I have to spend all my money on what essentially amounts to security bribes?

You don't have to do it, the same way that you don't have to pay for fire insurance. If you do not invest in security, perhaps you will suffer at the hands of robbers. If you do not invest in fire insurance, you may suffer when a fire occurs.

You are free to spend your money however you like. In a first-world country, you will also have an interest in hiring the local security service so you can display the "Protected by First Security Services" sign on your window. The fact that security may be wildly expensive in Somalia (and you don't even know this, I doubt the rates are posted anywhere) does not make you any more or less free - from a libertarian's point of view, the same way that a poor person who cannot afford to eat after world food prices jump by a factor of two is still "free." Starving, but free.

If you had a country solely populated by people like me you would not even have to hire any security forces at all.

And if you lived in Sweden, you wouldn't have to put air conditioning in your factory. Each time and place has circumstances.

[Godstud]

Therein lies the problem, Kman. You want a country where everyone is exactly like you. The world isn't like that except in some utopian dream.

[Kman]

You are free to spend your money however you like. In a first-world country, you will also have an interest in hiring the local security service so you can display the "Protected by First Security Services" sign on your window. The fact that security may be wildly expensive in Somalia (and you don't even know this, I doubt the rates are posted anywhere) does not make you any more or less free - from a libertarian's point of view

Yeah whatever, I stand by my original statement which is that in a country where you are forced by enormous amounts of crime and an extremely anti-capitalistic population to pay enormous amounts of money in order to just be allowed to be left alone on whatever plot of land you have bought is not a libertarian country.

It is like that quote from Jefferson I think it was, that a free society is based on the morals of a people, it has nothing to do with official government.

[Beren]

It seems a theoretical problem is solved: libertarianism is not possible, because not everybody is like Kman. It must be worth a Nobel Prize.

[Godstud]

I think you're right, Kman. I don't think Somalia's Libertarian. You need a form of government in place already and then mold it into this Libertarian utopia.

[Beren]

Somalia is not libertarian, because Somalis are not like Kman.

If we had a country full of Kmans, it would be libertarianism.

Simple as that.