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Classical liberalism. The individual before the state, non-interventionist, free-market based society.
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By Schnid
#14159495
Hey, I just have some noob questions:

1. Would there be some form of police force or organization that provides general security to people in society free of charge? Say someone breaks into your home, does help come or do you have to have some paid bodyguard or something?

2. What if a starving/destitute/sick individual shows up on your doorstep and you and everyone else is unwilling to care for this individual, what happens to them?

3. If a company, through negligence, produces a product that severely harms or kills a person, is the libertarian response simply "well, shop somewhere else then"?

4. Do libertarians think large scale projects that are typically undertaken by the state such as railways would exist in a libertarian society? Do we all just drive ourselves wherever it is we need to go, and isn't that hugely inefficient and more damaging to the environment than mass public transit?

5. How would education be set up? Strictly private schools? Home schooling? If it is not profitable for a private school to open in, say, a poor neighbourhood, are those people just SOL, and wouldn't that lead to highly uneven opportunities between rich and poor?

Thanks for any input.
By Beal
#14159605
Schnid wrote:Hey, I just have some noob questions:

1. Would there be some form of police force or organization that provides general security to people in society free of charge? Say someone breaks into your home, does help come or do you have to have some paid bodyguard or something?


You have to remember that there are different schools of libertarian thought. While some could be categorized as anarchists--advocating the end of the state--others are better categorized as minarchists. The latter prefer a limited government, but not the absence of a state altogether. So your answer is yes and no. Some libertarians think people would contract private security forces to keep the peace. Others think that the state should exist to serve some basic functions, such as enforcing laws that protect the non-aggression principle (policing and punishing murderers, thieves, etc..) and enforcing contracts.

Schnid wrote:2. What if a starving/destitute/sick individual shows up on your doorstep and you and everyone else is unwilling to care for this individual, what happens to them?


Charity didn't exist before the creation of the welfare state?

Schnid wrote:3. If a company, through negligence, produces a product that severely harms or kills a person, is the libertarian response simply "well, shop somewhere else then"?


This also depends on your flavor of libertarianism, not to mention more details of the circumstances. If you are in the minarchist camp, there is a good chance that this company breached contract. (False advertising, misleading guarantees, etc..) Some would argue the government should intervene. But yes, "shop somewhere else" means that in a truly free market, profit motive improves product quality without the heavy hand of government. "Shop somewhere else" may sound like a glib response, but the implications should not be underestimated.

Schnid wrote:4. Do libertarians think large scale projects that are typically undertaken by the state such as railways would exist in a libertarian society? Do we all just drive ourselves wherever it is we need to go, and isn't that hugely inefficient and more damaging to the environment than mass public transit?


Yes on huge projects. That's what joint stock companies (corporations) are for. As for the environment, I consider myself a small "l" libertarian or libertarian leaning. I believe that while private ownership of land and resources leads to better management, an argument can be made that certain resources, such as clean air, cannot be easily privatized and the heavy hand of government might be necessary. I may be in the minority in this forum.

Schnid wrote:5. How would education be set up? Strictly private schools? Home schooling? If it is not profitable for a private school to open in, say, a poor neighbourhood, are those people just SOL, and wouldn't that lead to highly uneven opportunities between rich and poor?

Thanks for any input.


The easy response is that schooling would be far cheaper. Poor neighborhoods would still be able to afford schooling. In fact given today's technologies, in the worst case scenarios we can home school a kid with nothing more than a computer and an Internet connection. (Some kids are already doing this.) I would also reiterate that some "libertarians" or libertarian-leaning people do not completely oppose government intervention. But at the very least, if government is going to assist with the cost of K-12 education, it could be done much more effectively. We need some way to give parents a choice, end tenure, end public sector unions, etc..
By mikema63
#14159705
Schnid is right about the different flavors, but my own take.

1. Would there be some form of police force or organization that provides general security to people in society free of charge? Say someone breaks into your home, does help come or do you have to have some paid bodyguard or something?


Part of the punishment in an anarchist libertarian society is monetary, if you cannot afford to pay for the investigation and prosecucution yourself you can give a part of the money in the verdict to pay for it, or even sell your rights to prosecute to the agencies doing the investigation. As for protection community groups coming together to Hire protection or preform it themselves is the usual answer. Protecting one house is expensive, the second house is less expensive, a sort of economy of scale forms.

2. What if a starving/destitute/sick individual shows up on your doorstep and you and everyone else is unwilling to care for this individual, what happens to them?


If the individual is so much of an asshole that nobody will help him then he will have to go into debt to help himself.

3. If a company, through negligence, produces a product that severely harms or kills a person, is the libertarian response simply "well, shop somewhere else then"?


The glib response is certainly true in part, but beyond that in many scenarios you can sue the company for damages, and there would also be rating agencies that would test products. Consumer reporters are something that came up on the market.

4. Do libertarians think large scale projects that are typically undertaken by the state such as railways would exist in a libertarian society? Do we all just drive ourselves wherever it is we need to go, and isn't that hugely inefficient and more damaging to the environment than mass public transit?


When the US decided to build a transcontinental railway the entire project involved the two builders to pump every bit of money they could out with no regard to efficiency or even use, at one point the built the railroad crossing the mountains to steep for a train to actually pass. Another rail line was being built privately by a man whose name escapes me (hill something?) he completed a useable rail line that stayed profitable when the government railine went bankrupt. It wasn't really till the great depression that railroads were essentially nationalized in the US with the web of regulation and control that now exists. Besides, nobody uses rail to travel in the US as it is.

5. How would education be set up? Strictly private schools? Home schooling? If it is not profitable for a private school to open in, say, a poor neighbourhood, are those people just SOL, and wouldn't that lead to highly uneven opportunities between rich and poor?


A recent phenomenon has been parents in a poor neighborhood essentially building their own schools, pooling their resources to hire a few teachers under their direct control and getting their kids taught. These are poor parents struggling to get their kids an education while still paying taxes to pay for the system they have escaped. Private schools can also be non-profit.
#14159843
My answers, I hope, will convey the minimal state position (minarchy).

Schnid wrote:1. Would there be some form of police force or organization that provides general security to people in society free of charge?
Yes. Free of charge? No. Taxes are imposed to pay for security which is public.

Schnid wrote:2. What if a starving/destitute/sick individual shows up on your doorstep and you and everyone else is unwilling to care for this individual, what happens to them?
If, literally, no one is prepared to care for this individual whether through charity or trade, then I wouldn't want to be that individual. But, how likely is it that no one will be prepared to engage with this individual?

Schnid wrote:3. If a company, through negligence, produces a product that severely harms or kills a person, is the libertarian response simply "well, shop somewhere else then"?
Certainly not. In a free society the correct response is if force or fraud has been committed then the individual should be allowed redress. Otherwise, caveat emptor prevails.

Schnid wrote:4. Do libertarians think large scale projects that are typically undertaken by the state such as railways would exist in a libertarian society? Do we all just drive ourselves wherever it is we need to go, and isn't that hugely inefficient and more damaging to the environment than mass public transit?
Roads, for instance, have been privately funded and managed in the past, so I don't see any reason to expect that such an arrangement wouldn't exist if the state ceased funding such infrastructure.

Schnid wrote:5. How would education be set up? Strictly private schools? Home schooling? If it is not profitable for a private school to open in, say, a poor neighbourhood, are those people just SOL, and wouldn't that lead to highly uneven opportunities between rich and poor?
Private insofar as the school is funded by those who use the services of said school. It is possible for an institute of education to be profitable anywhere.

See here for a more comprehensive defense of the "minimal state".
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By Travesty
#14159913
libertarian state


The more I learn about this "libertarian" ideology the more amusing it gets.
By Beal
#14159959
Travesty wrote:The more I learn about this "libertarian" ideology the more amusing it gets.


The classic liberals didn't necessarily believe in anarchy, only limited government. Much of their philosophy addressed the purpose and scope of the state, based on natural law and the social contract. They believed in a central government that was limited in scope, but which exists to protect our natural rights.

Libertarians are just the ideological descendents of classic liberals. Hell, we probably only call them libertarians because modern, social liberals dirtied the name. Libertarians aren't all anarchists. Some are. But some, probably most, are not. It's just that in a time of strong central governments, minarchists and libertarian anarchists find themselves on the same side of most arguments. 225 years ago you would have found them on opposite sides much more often.
By Schnid
#14159975
Cool, I appreciate this a lot.

Beal wrote:You have to remember that there are different schools of libertarian thought. While some could be categorized as anarchists--advocating the end of the state--others are better categorized as minarchists. The latter prefer a limited government, but not the absence of a state altogether. So your answer is yes and no. Some libertarians think people would contract private security forces to keep the peace. Others think that the state should exist to serve some basic functions, such as enforcing laws that protect the non-aggression principle (policing and punishing murderers, thieves, etc..) and enforcing contracts.


I didn't know about this distinction at all. I thought libertarianism was strictly an anarchic philosophy. Thanks for enlightening me.

With regard to the "no state" libertarian and the question of security, would an individual or group, having contracted out a private security force, be likely to extend that service to those who haven't paid for it? What I mean is, would there be some mechanism that would provide a basic level of security for all individuals? If one chooses not to/is unable to hire private security and is threatened with violence, is any individual or group obligated to intervene on that person's behalf?

Charity didn't exist before the creation of the welfare state?


Certainly it did, but there were many who fell through the cracks and simply died of starvation or other causes. Even with the emergence of the welfare state homeless people still freeze to death in large numbers every winter here in Canada. So in a libertarian society, there is no institution that guarantees a basic level of subsistence for all individuals unless that institution emerges privately? What if it is overwhelmed due to some catastrophe and is unable to protect the existence of all the victims of said catastrophe, do the rest simply perish?

profit motive improves product quality without the heavy hand of government.


What if you live in a town where there is one company that owns the rivers and lakes that are the town's water source, and that company chose to cut back on how much they sanitize the water due to it being too expensive. Lets say hypothetically, this less sanitized water carried a pathogen that caused widespread illness and even death. Now you don't have the opportunity to shop somewhere else because you're either too sick and/or dead. That would suck.

Isn't it true that when you commodify something, you thereby remove it from the realm of democratic accountability? And isn't this potentially very dangerous when it comes to things that are vital to human life like air, food, and water?

Yes on huge projects. That's what joint stock companies (corporations) are for.


What if there is no corporation able to mobilize the massive amount of capital and resources needed to undertake a huge project such as the Chinese governments expansion of public transport which helped boost their economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_ ... speed_rail).

The easy response is that schooling would be far cheaper. Poor neighborhoods would still be able to afford schooling. In fact given today's technologies, in the worst case scenarios we can home school a kid with nothing more than a computer and an Internet connection. (Some kids are already doing this.) I would also reiterate that some "libertarians" or libertarian-leaning people do not completely oppose government intervention. But at the very least, if government is going to assist with the cost of K-12 education, it could be done much more effectively. We need some way to give parents a choice, end tenure, end public sector unions, etc..


Most of the world's children are without a computer and internet access. So, in the absence of public or private schools, how would they be educated?

So some libertarians oppose unions, or just public sector unions? If libertarianism is about freedom, is limiting the freedom of individuals to organize inconsistent with libertarian principles?

mikema63 wrote:If the individual is so much of an asshole that nobody will help him then he will have to go into debt to help himself.


What if no credit agency is willing to give this asshole of an individual any credit? He dies then, right?

Your post was insightful in a lot of ways, Mike. Thanks.

Soixante-Retard wrote:how likely is it that no one will be prepared to engage with this individual?


Private charity and altruism is hardly a drop in the bucket in terms of addressing our society's social and economic problems. Yeah, I think it is very likely that no one will decide to voluntarily care for the well-being of this hypothetical destitute stranger.

Thanks for the link, I will check it out later.
#14159992
I donated to Ron Paul's campaign because I felt we need to push back against government growth and intrusion. The bush administration took a very expansionist approach and really screwed our freedoms, so by now I'm ready to erase Washington and start all over in New Madrid, Missouri. This way something will happen to wipe them out again in due course.
By mikema63
#14159999
What if no credit agency is willing to give this asshole of an individual any credit? He dies then, right?


Unless he can put something up as collateral, an organ in the worst case, there was charity funds and mutual aid societies before government really got into funding healthcare and while it would be speculation wether or not they would reemerge I do think such charities would be available to help.
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By TropicalK
#14160051
Here are the answers for my flavor of libertarianism, probably closer to minarchy.

1. Would there be some form of police force or organization that provides general security to people in society free of charge? Say someone breaks into your home, does help come or do you have to have some paid bodyguard or something?

Nothing is free, and I would leave it up-to states and cities to come to their own conclusions on this issue. I'd suspect that the triumphant solution would be similar to what exists currently in the US, pooled taxation with free access.

2. What if a starving/destitute/sick individual shows up on your doorstep and you and everyone else is unwilling to care for this individual, what happens to them?

If he cannot get voluntary charity, then he dies. His death is probably the most optimal result for the sake of society as a whole anyways. It is actually more complicated than that because a citizen's dividend might exist in my flavor.

3. If a company, through negligence, produces a product that severely harms or kills a person, is the libertarian response simply "well, shop somewhere else then"?

No, the company would be held liable within reason.

4. Do libertarians think large scale projects that are typically undertaken by the state such as railways would exist in a libertarian society? Do we all just drive ourselves wherever it is we need to go, and isn't that hugely inefficient and more damaging to the environment than mass public transit?

There are very very few projects like that. I believe that the state should build national arteries in highways, trains, and telecommunications. Everything that is not a major artery would be funded locally. Preferably, it would be funded by use taxes and/or spun-off corporations.

5. How would education be set up? Strictly private schools? Home schooling? If it is not profitable for a private school to open in, say, a poor neighbourhood, are those people just SOL, and wouldn't that lead to highly uneven opportunities between rich and poor?

Private schools. If it is not profitable, then yes, they are SOL. However, that is unlikely as everything is cheaper in the ghetto and education is only as expensive as it is now because of government. And I do not care about uneven opportunities. Life is unfair, deal with it.
By Beal
#14160065
Schnid wrote:With regard to the "no state" libertarian


I don't know that I should try to address many of your follow up questions because I don't want to speak for the anarchists. I believe we should have a government that provides policing and a justice system, and I am not completely opposed to limited environmental regulations.

I will comment on the general principle that government intervention may improve people's lives. Many of the complaints I hear about both limited and absent government is that if the government didn't address the problem, no one would. But what about the notion that fixing the problem just makes it worse, or causes more problems?

I'm curious. This is a bit of an open-ended question, but let me ask you: how much is a human life worth? A thousand dollars? A million? A billion?

Schnid wrote:Certainly it did, but there were many who fell through the cracks and simply died of starvation or other causes. Even with the emergence of the welfare state homeless people still freeze to death in large numbers every winter here in Canada. So in a libertarian society, there is no institution that guarantees a basic level of subsistence for all individuals unless that institution emerges privately? What if it is overwhelmed due to some catastrophe and is unable to protect the existence of all the victims of said catastrophe, do the rest simply perish?


A catasrophe like this? A lot of those deaths probably happened because of, not in spite of French (and European in general) economic interventions.

Schnid wrote:Most of the world's children are without a computer and internet access. So, in the absence of public or private schools, how would they be educated?


If they can't afford computers and internet service, how are they going to afford classrooms and lecture halls? I didn't think this was a question of international aid for education services. I thought we were just discussing public education within a country.

Schnid wrote:So some libertarians oppose unions, or just public sector unions?


I oppose all unions and cartels in general. However I believe that in a freer society, we wouldn't need laws preventing cartels because profit motive will destroy them.

Schnid wrote:If libertarianism is about freedom, is limiting the freedom of individuals to organize inconsistent with libertarian principles?


Without a Wagner Act, National Labor Relations Board, etc..? Yes. I say let people organize all they want, but without interference or support from the government.
By lucky
#14160087
My answers:

Schnid wrote:1. Would there be some form of police force or organization that provides general security to people in society free of charge?

Yes.

Let me also comment that your form of questions indicates that you think of libertarianism as some radical new version of society. This is not so. Libertarianism is a direction in politics, not a new design of society. Today's world is quite libertarian, in the historical context, I think more libertarian than it has ever been. Related:
I thought libertarianism was strictly an anarchic philosophy.

Of course it isn't, far from it. I recommend reading Milton Friedman (one of the best known libertarians) or watching his videos at http://www.freetochoose.tv/.

I see this anarchic trend mostly in radical online forums (like this one), not in any real-world discussions of consequence.

Schnid wrote:2. What if a starving/destitute/sick individual shows up on your doorstep and you and everyone else is unwilling to care for this individual, what happens to them?

In my version, every citizen receives an equal, small regular payment. This replaces retirement benefits and unemployment benefits. If you incorporate this into the tax code, the idea is called "negative income tax".

Schnid wrote:3. If a company, through negligence, produces a product that severely harms or kills a person, is the libertarian response simply "well, shop somewhere else then"?

No, they are liable, unless the danger is communicated clearly to the customer.

Schnid wrote:4. Do libertarians think large scale projects that are typically undertaken by the state such as railways would exist in a libertarian society? Do we all just drive ourselves wherever it is we need to go, and isn't that hugely inefficient and more damaging to the environment than mass public transit?

I support some public projects. This has less to do with scale (privately funding large scale projects is not a problem, see Apple), and more to do with natural monopolies and externalities.

Regarding damages to the environment from driving cars, I support gasoline taxes to align those incentives.

Schnid wrote:5. How would education be set up? Strictly private schools? Home schooling? If it is not profitable for a private school to open in, say, a poor neighbourhood, are those people just SOL, and wouldn't that lead to highly uneven opportunities between rich and poor?

I support elementary education subsidies. A major difference from the current system in the US: school vouchers, which means that when you choose a private school over a public school, you don't lose the subsidy. This is the primary reason schools in the US are so divided between public schools for poor kids and private schools for rich kids: the market is severely distorted by the subsidy disadvantage private schools have, so they only make sense financially above certain large quality and price threshold. With the vouchers, public schools would compete with private schools on equal terms.

Just like TropicalK, I don't see uneven opportunities as a problem: after all, the whole point of being rich is to create better opportunities for yourself and your offspring (or whoever else you care about in your life). I support subsidized education because of public benefits from educated populace, not to equalize opportunities.

Schnid wrote:homeless people still freeze to death in large numbers every winter here in Canada

According to this article, "more than 80 people die each year from over-exposure to the cold". I'd say that's a small number in the list of leading death causes.
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By Eran
#14160548
It should, by now, be perfectly clear that a range of views is to be found amongst libertarians.

To make things interesting, I will give my (anarchist) response.

1. Would there be some form of police force or organization that provides general security to people in society free of charge? Say someone breaks into your home, does help come or do you have to have some paid bodyguard or something?

Not in general. Some neighbourhoods may well include police protection as one of the services they provide to all residents, paid for via something like homeowner association dues. In general, however, people would purchase protection services.

The model I like has virtually every person buy a "crime insurance" policy. Such policy would both compensate you for any damage caused by another person's criminal activity (perhaps subject to a deductible), and pay for the damage that you have caused through your criminal (or negligent) actions.

If you are found guilty, you may have to pay the insurance company.

In the unlikely event that you are an uninsured crime victim, you can still sell your right for restitution to a company. How much you'll get will now depend on how likely it is for the company (or its agents) to (1) identify your assailant, (2) find and apprehend them, (3) prove their guilt, and (4) extract restitution from them.

Before judging such system, keep in mind that for many people today, police protection is either non-existent or virtually so. I live in the country, and it will probably take the police 15-20 minutes to answer my call, by which time most of the damage will have already been created.

In a libertarian society, people are also much more likely to be armed (no unreasonable gun control laws), making crime a much more dangerous occupation.

2. What if a starving/destitute/sick individual shows up on your doorstep and you and everyone else is unwilling to care for this individual, what happens to them?

What if a staving/destitute/sick individual fails to qualify for government assistance? When comparing an anarchy to a democracy, you can't simply assume that the government services you want will be provided without similarly assuming that charitable services you believe in will also be provided. After all, democratic governments help the destitute because there is broad popular support for such help. With broad popular support, why assume that dedicated charitable organisations won't be amply funded to meet the (much reduced) needs?

3. If a company, through negligence, produces a product that severely harms or kills a person, is the libertarian response simply "well, shop somewhere else then"?

The most likely answer is that a severely harmful product has been sold through fraud. After all, very few people would knowingly purchase a defective or severely dangerous product.

If it is fraud, the buyer has recourse to sue the company.

4. Do libertarians think large scale projects that are typically undertaken by the state such as railways would exist in a libertarian society? Do we all just drive ourselves wherever it is we need to go, and isn't that hugely inefficient and more damaging to the environment than mass public transit?

Private railways existed well before government went into the public transportation infrastructure business. If a public transportation project is economically-viable, it can be built with private funding. If it isn't, it shouldn't be built in the first place.

5. How would education be set up? Strictly private schools? Home schooling? If it is not profitable for a private school to open in, say, a poor neighbourhood, are those people just SOL, and wouldn't that lead to highly uneven opportunities between rich and poor?

In a libertarian anarchy, all schooling would be private (though home schooling will obviously still be an option). I wouldn't worry about the issue of poor neighbourhoods. In India, you can find private schools (for-profit, fully tuition-funded) in the poorest slums and villages. In general, the cost of private schools can be very low. Try the following calculation: the primary cost item for education is teacher wages. Take a $40,000/year teacher, let him teach 20 students in a class, and the per-student annual cost is $2,000, affordable by virtually any American family (recall that taxes would go down as well).

It is easy to envision even cheaper schooling options, perhaps relying more on technology vs. frontal teaching.

Finally, since the public clearly supports providing financial aid to poor families to help with their children's education, there is no reason not to expect charitable organisations helping poor families with their children's education.

With regard to the "no state" libertarian and the question of security, would an individual or group, having contracted out a private security force, be likely to extend that service to those who haven't paid for it? What I mean is, would there be some mechanism that would provide a basic level of security for all individuals? If one chooses not to/is unable to hire private security and is threatened with violence, is any individual or group obligated to intervene on that person's behalf?

In today's society, most of the protection people get from police is based on deterrence rather than active protection. Deterrence is effective if the likelihood of capture, combined with the severity of punishment, is enough to deter the prospective criminal.

If an uninsured person is a victim of a crime, they can still get some restitution by selling their tort rights. Having purchased the rights, an insurance company will have an interest in professionally pursuing the criminal. Thus all crime is deterred, even under a purely private system of enforcement.

Another point to keep in mind is that personal protection is actually very cheap. The per-capita police budget is perhaps $200/year, but most of that cost goes towards enforcing drug laws which will be inapplicable in a libertarian society. A descent protection policy could cost as little as $100/year/person - hardly a hardship.

Certainly it did, but there were many who fell through the cracks and simply died of starvation or other causes.

And some do today. Historic societies were much poorer than is our own. We can much more easily aid those in danger of dying from starvation. In fact, this is a non-issue. The only places in the world in which people actually die of starvation are those subject to a civil war or other malevolent violent action, typically by governments (or those aspiring to become one).

More generally, we are discussing forms of governance rather than specific public policies. A-priori, there is no guarantee that a democratic government will maintain the welfare state. Such maintenance doesn't automatically come with governments or even democratic governments.

Rather, democratic governments tend to care for their own citizens because society wants to. And if society wants to, it can do so even without government.

What if you live in a town where there is one company that owns the rivers and lakes that are the town's water source, and that company chose to cut back on how much they sanitize the water due to it being too expensive. Lets say hypothetically, this less sanitized water carried a pathogen that caused widespread illness and even death. Now you don't have the opportunity to shop somewhere else because you're either too sick and/or dead. That would suck.

What if you live in a town where municipal government provides water to the people, and that the municipal government chose to cut back on how much they sanitize the water due to it being unpopular by the majority of Christian Scientists living in the town. Lets say hypothetically, this less sanitized water carried a pathogen that caused widespread illness and even death. Now you don't have the opportunity to shop somewhere else because you're either too sick and/or dead. That would suck.

So being captive of a single monopoly provider of an essential product like water has the potential of sucking.

Now ask yourself, under which system are you more likely to face a monopoly provider? With government, the likelihood is almost 100%. With private providers, the likelihood is very small. An unpopular monopoly provider creates strong incentives for competitors to come in.

Isn't it true that when you commodify something, you thereby remove it from the realm of democratic accountability? And isn't this potentially very dangerous when it comes to things that are vital to human life like air, food, and water?

I am not sure I understand what you mean by that. But as stated above, a private market in vital goods is far superior to a government monopoly in those same goods. Food is an excellent example. While we routinely encounter water shortages (water is provided by government), we virtually never face food shortages (food is provided by a competitive private sector).

What if there is no corporation able to mobilize the massive amount of capital and resources needed to undertake a huge project such as the Chinese governments expansion of public transport which helped boost their economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_ ... speed_rail).

Why wouldn't there by one, if the project is economically viable? Because the private sector includes many different entrepreneurs examining various opportunities, the probability that an economically-viable project will be undertaken by the private sector is very high, while the probability that an non-viable project will be taken is correspondingly low.

With governments, on the other hand, there is no assessment of economic viability. Rather, a project will proceed if it is politically-viable, i.e. popular and/or enjoys support of politically-powerful people.

Most of the world's children are without a computer and internet access. So, in the absence of public or private schools, how would they be educated?

As noted above, low-cost private schools are very common in some very poor areas. There is no reason to expect less schooling options under a private regime than under a government one.

Further, quality of education in government schools is often very low. Just because government built a school and children attend it doesn't necessarily mean that those children are actually being educated.

So some libertarians oppose unions, or just public sector unions? If libertarianism is about freedom, is limiting the freedom of individuals to organize inconsistent with libertarian principles?

Libertarians only oppose unions to the extent that the unions use aggression (initiate force), either directly (as used to be the case) or through government (as is often the case now).

Workers are obviously free to organize. But by the same token, employers are free not to employ organized workers. Freedom goes both ways.

What if no credit agency is willing to give this asshole of an individual any credit? He dies then, right?

What if no government agency is willing to give this asshole any support? He dies then, right?

Once again, the likelihood that at least one private organisation will help a person is much greater than that a monolithic government bureaucracy will.

Private charity and altruism is hardly a drop in the bucket in terms of addressing our society's social and economic problems. Yeah, I think it is very likely that no one will decide to voluntarily care for the well-being of this hypothetical destitute stranger.

Government welfare programs have for generations acted to suppress private charity. After all, why bother give to the poor if you know that your tax money is used to support those poor (probably at a more generous level than you would want to)?

In addition, government welfare programs have the (unintended) effect of promoting poverty. After all, if you are paid not to work, you are much less likely to try hard to find employment (perhaps taking a pay-cut or even moving to a different city).

For both reasons, as well as the general expectation that a libertarian society will be much wealthier, the gap between social needs and resources required to meet those needs will be much narrower than it is today.

Beal wrote:I'm curious. This is a bit of an open-ended question, but let me ask you: how much is a human life worth? A thousand dollars? A million? A billion?

The quick answer is "to whom"? Clearly, a human life is worth different amounts to different people.
By Nunt
#14161232
As usual, when someone is critisizing voluntary associations they inevitably forget that those criticisms apply to governments as well.

Just one example of Belgian government failure. The governments main responsibility is to take care of the poorest people in the population. So far the government is failing in this responsibility because even after 50 years of massive government spending, the government still says that 1 in 7 Belgians is poor (thats about 1.5million people).

The Belgian government spends about $250 billion yearly. Thus, if the government wanted to they could give each poor person in Belgium a yearly income of 250bil/1.5mil or about $166,666 yearly. Even if they only used 1/8th of their budget then poor people will still receive more than $20,000.

You gotta wonder, what the hell are they doing with those massive bdugets.
By Someone5
#14165632
Schnid wrote:1. Would there be some form of police force or organization that provides general security to people in society free of charge? Say someone breaks into your home, does help come or do you have to have some paid bodyguard or something?


Better make sure you're up to date with the payments to your private security company. The only "free" security you'll get will be the security that comes and kicks in your door and shoots you at three AM because someone caught you downloading some music that you didn't buy.

2. What if a starving/destitute/sick individual shows up on your doorstep and you and everyone else is unwilling to care for this individual, what happens to them?


They go die in a gutter, because, well, why not? You wouldn't want to "initiate force" against them by offering them a helping hand.

3. If a company, through negligence, produces a product that severely harms or kills a person, is the libertarian response simply "well, shop somewhere else then"?


Yup. That sounds like a typical Libertarian response. Because obviously everyone is supposed to subject everything they buy to a rigorous chemical examination before using it. They'll probably say something about courts and arbitration, but what that really means is that the company that sold you the poison will just point at their well armed thugs and tell you to fuck off.

4. Do libertarians think large scale projects that are typically undertaken by the state such as railways would exist in a libertarian society? Do we all just drive ourselves wherever it is we need to go, and isn't that hugely inefficient and more damaging to the environment than mass public transit?


Mass public transit? Hell, Libertarians don't even believe in roads! What's the first step in getting anywhere in a Libertarian society? Apparently you get your earthmover and start building your own damned road, because there sure as hell wasn't a state around to do that kind of thing.

5. How would education be set up?


Education? Libertarians are violently opposed to education. Hell, look at the vitriol they throw at the department of education.
User avatar
By Eran
#14166147
Better make sure you're up to date with the payments to your private security company. The only "free" security you'll get will be the security that comes and kicks in your door and shoots you at three AM because someone caught you downloading some music that you didn't buy.

Very few people advocating libertarian anarchy also believe in intellectual property. Definitely a poor example.

You wouldn't want to "initiate force" against them by offering them a helping hand.

Offering a helping hand is acceptable and even commended by every libertarian anarchist I ever read.

Because obviously everyone is supposed to subject everything they buy to a rigorous chemical examination before using it.

Of course not. People will rely on testing done by organisations they consider reliable, rather than test themselves.

The boundary between reputation-based market discipline and outright law-suit for fraud isn't always sharp, but all libertarians believe in both remedies, depending on circumstances.

Hell, Libertarians don't even believe in roads! What's the first step in getting anywhere in a Libertarian society? Apparently you get your earthmover and start building your own damned road, because there sure as hell wasn't a state around to do that kind of thing.

Of course. Because today, we don't use any good or services not handed to us free by the state. No state-owned food distribution centres? Grow your own food! No state-sponsored clothing outlets? Weave your own clothes!

Libertarians are violently opposed to education. Hell, look at the vitriol they throw at the department of education.

Other than the name, there is very little to link the Department of Education and actual education.
By Someone5
#14167183
Eran wrote:Very few people advocating libertarian anarchy also believe in intellectual property. Definitely a poor example.


I am shocked that you would make that argument! after all, what you are advocating matters very little compared with what would actualy happen. in a libertarian "anarchy" your rights are only protected through a private rights management agency, correct? well, you would be quite foolish to believe that there wiuld not be private rights.management agencies that will also assert an protect "intellectual property". as there would be no government to determine that such right do not exist, nor any agency with a monopoly on force, you would be able to do nothing to stop them... except through force. of course, they very probably have more resources and weapons than you do--since they are a large corporation and you are just a private individual. the companies that would serve these.rights.holders.would also almost certainly have more resources to devote to this than the companies serving regular people. so while you libertarians may oppose lintellectual propeerry, the society.you envision would still have them... and no means by which their enforcement can be limited.

Offering a helping hand is acceptable and even commended by every libertarian anarchist I ever read.

yet not a value that an actual libertarian society would advocate.

Of course not. People will rely on testing done by organisations they consider reliable, rather than test themselves.

oh, that won't create any confusion whatsoever, of course. how could anyone ever sell a product without having to send copies on ti every pissant little testing organization? what about the people who cant afford to pay an extra 10-20% on everything they buy just to see if it will kill them?

The boundary between reputation-based market discipline and outright law-suit for fraud isn't always sharp, but all libertarians believe in both remedies, depending on circumstances.

and powerful companies can still tell you to fuck off while pointing at their more powerful security folks. unless you thing jims bargain basement security will gi to the wall for you?

Of course. Because today, we don't use any good or services not handed to us free by the state. No state-owned food distribution centres? Grow your own food! No state-sponsored clothing outlets? Weave your own clothes!

we really dont use much infrastructure that is privately owned, and what parts we.do use that is privately owned usually sucks. apples and oranges here. hardly an ounce of food in this country gets delivered without extensive public involvement.

Other than the name, there is very little to link the Department of Education and actual education.

see what I mean? their revulsion for education is practically instinctual.

posted by phone, forgive the typos and lack of capitals.

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