[Eran]

If you say so fella. Do you know how much I pay for a doctors appointment? £0.00p That is because in 1945 some socialists came to power in Britain and the state steals money from rich people to give me healthcare.

Nonsense. You don't pay for a doctor's appointment at the time you make it. But you pay for it through your taxes (at the very least VAT, and, if you are a typical worker, also through income taxes).

More importantly, you pay for it through limited choice and curtailed growth associated with a bloated state health-care. Consider as a mental exercise the following hypothetical:
The French government provided its citizens with Minitel, a text-based online service accessible through telephone lines. Imagine that through a combination of regulations and taxation, the French government effectively barred alternative online services (including access to the Internet), but continued to provide Minitel services for free.

Would you, as a French citizen able to enjoy free Minitel services, consider yourself fortunate compared to an American who has to pay to use the Internet?

Even more to the point, though, you don't live in a "dictatorship of the proletariat", but in a social democracy.

The part and the working class are the same thing, the party is the physical manifestation of the workers will.

Obviously, the party claims to be that. But why should we trust them? And how would they know what is the will of the workers? And what makes anybody think the workers have a single will? Aren't workers individuals, each with his own will?

I you imagination we might be waiting huge amounts of time but in reality we don't.

I can relate my very recent personal experience. Last week I had a chest X-ray, and my GP informed me that I should consult a cardiologist. To be fair, both seeing my GP and getting the X-ray done required very little waiting. However, seeing an NHS cardiologist would have required waiting 6-8 weeks (!).

Now my situation didn't appear to be life-threatening, but having to live through the uncertainty for 6-8 weeks would have been difficult.

Luckily, I also have private health-insurance (which I get through my employer, but a similar coverage for diagnosis would cost about 35 pounds (=$50)/month). Through that, I was able to book a consultation with a senior cardiologist within three days. Moreover, the cardiologist was able to see me in the evening, so I didn't have to miss work.

In some countries (Canada, any socialist worker's paradise), even the private insurance option wouldn't be available.

[mikema63]

Are you okay?

[Decky]

Nonsense. You don't pay for a doctor's appointment at the time you make it. But you pay for it through your taxes (at the very least VAT, and, if you are a typical worker, also through income taxes).

Well there's a mistake.

The rich pay the vast majority of taxes (as they have all the money). The poor don't pay for our own care through taxation. The rich do. The taxes paid by the poor wouldn't come close to paying for it.

Nice lie though.

More importantly, you pay for it through limited choice and curtailed growth associated with a bloated state health-care.

No we don't; NHS care is the best in the world.

Would you, as a French citizen able to enjoy free Minitel services, consider yourself fortunate compared to an American who has to pay to use the Internet?

Yes

Even if I was a gay born in Saudi Arabia I would still consider myself fortunate not to be born an American.

[Eran]

The rich pay the vast majority of taxes (as they have all the money). The poor don't pay for our own care through taxation. The rich do. The taxes paid by the poor wouldn't come close to paying for it.

What a sad delusion. Talk about your "false conciousness"!

It is true that rich people pay more in taxes, but they also tend to get more in benefits. I am well off enough to overcome the limitations of the NHS (though, as I pointed out, that doesn't require a massive amount of money). Most people aren't (or think they aren't), and are thus stuck with mediocre, slow and, at times, outright dangerous service. And like the hypothetical Frenchman stuck with a Minitel in 2013, we have no idea what we are missing.

[Joe Liberty]

we believe that the dictatorship of the proletariat will be transitional period will lead us to a world where their are only workers and no parasites.

Do you know how much I pay for a doctors appointment? £0.00p That is because in 1945 some socialists came to power in Britain and the state steals money from rich people to give me healthcare.

[SolarCross]

The rich pay the vast majority of taxes (as they have all the money). The poor don't pay for our own care through taxation. The rich do. The taxes paid by the poor wouldn't come close to paying for it.

We have to remember that Decky is unemployed as a long term career; his idea of rich is anyone getting at least minimum wage. Unlike Decky, those who work pay massive taxes (as a proportion of income), Income tax, sin taxes, fuel taxes, 20% VAT and on an on. These people are poor but not because they are not paid enough but because the government robs them at every turn.

[iakobos]

The ultimate goal of my ideology?

My ideology is an outgrowth from my personality. One of my very earliest childhood thoughts was, upon being told by some random adult to do something, "I don't have to do what you tell me to do." Later on when it became the government telling me what to do, my thought was, "Who are you to tell me what to do, or how to live my life?" At some point in my early teenage years I came to the conclusion I just wanted everybody to leave me alone. I also believe in the Golden Rule, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So there you have it. My goal is to leave everyone else alone and see to it they leave me alone.

Unfortunately, large numbers of people in our society/government don't see it that way.

[Sithsaber]

^tHE REASON WHY spanking is a must.

[Soixante-Retard]

iakobos, ditch the Golden Rule, live by the Silver Rule; do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you.

[iakobos]

^tHE REASON WHY spanking is a must.

Funny you should mention that. In the interests of being brief, I left out an important part of my upbringing. My father was a strict disciplinarian. He laid the law so early I don't remember it. The line of obedience was clearly marked and to step across that line meant a spanking, every time. I have no doubt that played a large role in why I grew up to become a model citizen. I'm sure that becoming a Christian while still a teenager played a very important part in it as well. I have eight children myself. Because they are receiving the same upbringing, my observation of their contact with the outside world is most people find them a pleasure to be around.

[neopagan]

I am tired of people who whine about their taxes being wasted on socialized medicine, when their governments urinate away billions and billions on a host of other pet projects. Take a look at your defence budget and ask if you are getting value for money.

The ultimate goal of my ideology is to have fun. But genuine fun cannot be derived from denying other people theirs.

[Eran]

I am tired of people who whine about their taxes being wasted on socialized medicine, when their governments urinate away billions and billions on a host of other pet projects. Take a look at your defence budget and ask if you are getting value for money.

Indeed.

But many of the people here whine about their taxes being wasted in every possible way. Some of us, indeed, are anarchists, and would like to see no government expenditures whatsoever.

[Sithsaber]

Replace State with overarching syndicate and its the same thing.

[AFAIK]

What is the purpose of being a libertarian in your view? Are the non-aggression principle and private property an end in themselves, or are they just a means to some other end that you haven't mentioned?

I am still exploring myself and various ideologies but my current feelings are.....

I find the NAP very attractive. I enjoy my personal space and free time. I expect others to do the same. If someone wishes to smoke some weed I invite them to do so. I expect them to avoid blowing smoke in my face or dropping ash close by to me, just as I make an effort to take other peoples needs and desires into account. I follows Kant's 2nd principle and always attempt to treat people as ends in themselves whilst pursuing my goals.

I would like to make it clear that in a libertarian anarchy people would be free to live as they choose by entering into voluntary arrangements with one another. People may choose to live on communes, work in co-ops, live in gated communities that are governed in an authoritarian manner, institute a gift economy, anything is possible. No one will attempt to deny you a choice. It is against the unwritten constitution that is recognized by society at large and the courts.

However.....
I am concerned that libertarianism is unable to take preventative action to prevent harm preemptively. Pollution isn't outlawed or banned outright. You have a right to defend your property and ongoing projects from it's harmful effects but virgin land is undefended.

Incremental pollution that causes climate change is ungovernable as its causes are so varied and its effects so complex. I also worry that people in a position of authority will want to exert their will over others. Employer-employee, landlord-tenant, owner-renter, cartels, oligarchies, monopolies. I fear authority and the abuse of power.

Basically libertarianism is an end in itself but may be flawed or incapable of solving certain problems.

I feel society is moving in this direction. People's tolerance for state violence has diminished massively during recent decades. Compare the protests against the Vietnam war and the Iraq war (2003). Protests against the Iraq war occurred BEFORE the invasion ! Propaganda did not convince us. We do not tolerate aggression !

[Husky]

For me, it's all about the liberty. Personal liberty. I want to explore and discover life on my own account; I don't need to be told what drugs I can inhale, or which internet sites I can visit, or who I can trade with. I want independence. I am a free human being and can make choices for myself.

I enjoy both time by myself and time with others; the government does not need to force co-operation. When humans are unbound by chains the possibilities are endless.

[Eran]

I am concerned that libertarianism is unable to take preventative action to prevent harm pre-emptively. Pollution isn't outlawed or banned outright. You have a right to defend your property and ongoing projects from it's harmful effects but virgin land is undefended.

You should be much more concerned with giving government the power to take preventative action. Remember - there is no mechanism that can restrict the use government officials would make of such power once you give it to them.

Conversely, a libertarian society in which pollution is a concern could take any number of steps to mitigate it. From strengthening community response to homesteading "virgin land" for conservation purposes.

I also worry that people in a position of authority will want to exert their will over others. Employer-employee, landlord-tenant, owner-renter, cartels, oligarchies, monopolies. I fear authority and the abuse of power.

In a libertarian anarchy, all authority is voluntarily accepted. Employees can leave an abusive employer, tenants can leave an abusive landlord, and anybody can compete against a monopoly.

If you fear authority and the abuse of power, the last thing you'd want to do is concentrate in very few hands the authority to initiate force against others and make that authority a monopoly.

[Baff]

Live a good life, leave things a little nicer than I found them.

The ultimate goal of my ideology changes to suit my current purpose.
I am the "i" in ideology. My ideas are all just tools to an end.

@AFaik, I hear what you are saying about zero enforced oversight.
For myself too, anarchy is going back too far. A lot of things have evolved into what they are today for a reason. In response to millenia of trial and error.

However, while I still wish for a central govt and recognise the useful civil toolage it provides... I equally recognise that much of this is poorly provided and as often as not even couter productive, there is a play off to be had here and currently I recognise it to be well out of balance in my own country.
It's like the blob in the movie... it won't stop growing until it eats us all!

So how do we get beurocracies to stop becoming self feeding abusers?
The answer of course is that we are unable to. It's human nature.
We can try and control it to some extent but ultimately power corrupts. Self interest manifests.
Institutional behaviour emerges.


Once in a while a little anarchy is required to reset all the beurocracy to zero. To burn all the files and palaces and sack all of our masters.
Soon after the beaurocracy re-asserts.. it is after all simply born out of the desire to mutually co-operate. And this time we will have new beaurcrats, maybe even you or me, and it all begins again.
Ultimately and inexorably resulting in anarchy.

So a little beaurocracy is a good thing but too much beaurocracy is bad thing.
Right now I have too much beaurocracy.
I'd like to conserve my enviroment for example, but the EU won't let me.
Laws designed to address a problem in Yugoslavia or somewhere are being mis-applied to me at the same time and it's counterproductive. Producing the exact opposite to intended result.

50% of our incomes confiscated.
Weeks of each year spent filling in forms.
At this point I am on the cusp of believing it has got so bad as that no govt at all is preferable.
That it's reset time. Time to chuck it all in the wind and go for the random future.

I really wish I had faith in the govts ability to reform itself from within and I do not.

[Unthinking Majority]

Rei, libertarianism is an individualistic political programme. It doesn't have a goal, because it attempts to enable individuals to complete freedom to attain their own - whatever that may be varying, of course, between individuals. You are asking for a collectivist answer from non-collectivists.

" it attempts to enable individuals to complete freedom to attain their own [goals]." What you just stated is what you believe the goal of libertarianism is.

[Plaro]

Libertarianism like anarchism can never be achieved in practice, if it is put forth, the society will eventually collapse on itself. Because fundamental elements needed for societies function will be missing.

[Nunt]

Libertarianism like anarchism can never be achieved in practice, if it is put forth, the society will eventually collapse on itself. Because fundamental elements needed for societies function will be missing.

Which fundamental elements are you referring to?