The ultimate goal of your ideology? - Page 12 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Classical liberalism. The individual before the state, non-interventionist, free-market based society.
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#14632151
Pants-of-dog wrote:So, after being inspired by certain Octavia Butler novels, i would say that the ultimate goal of my ideology is the complete abolition of hierarchies and other oppressive power dynamics.

Do you understand that private ownership of natural resources, especially land, is an inherently oppressive power dynamic, while private ownership of the fruits of one's labor is not?
Rei Murasame wrote:What is the purpose of being a libertarian in your view?

EU rope wrote:Well, to acquire liberty, of course. To be free. :)

Well, Rei might claim your liberty would include being free to enslave others...

Most feudal "libertarians" claim a right to enslave others by forcibly removing their liberty to sustain their own lives using what nature provided for all (i.e., a right to private property in land).

So, what does, "to be free" mean to you? The kind of freedom the American Founding Fathers -- landowners to a one, and most of them slave owners -- had in mind?
Crantag wrote:I believe in local sovereignty and abolishment of nation-states, the concept of which is inherently phony, and which has been one of the biggest barriers to peace in the modern world (ironically, they were created in Westphalia to prevent wars).

What makes a nation-state not "local"? How big can a state be without being not-local?

In reality, there is nothing at all "phony" about the nation-state. States reliably beat non-states in inter-societal competition, and big states reliably beat small ones. Some artificial multi-ethnic nation-states like Yugoslavia, India, etc. are problematic to govern, but that doesn't mean they are phony or necessarily unworkable or unpeaceful, as Switzerland shows.
#14632165
Pants-of-dog wrote:So, after being inspired by certain Octavia Butler novels, i would say that the ultimate goal of my ideology is the complete abolition of hierarchies and other oppressive power dynamics.


Lol. After you're done with that, be sure to make pigs fly.
#14632175
There are 2 types of freedom- freedom from and freedom to. Libertarianism is an individualistic ideology that focuses of freedom from interference and oppression by others. Originally a left wing ideology it also refers to small gov't right wing Americans who believe they should have the freedom to own land, commodities and other resources exclusive of anyone else.

Right-libertarianism has too many self-contradictions to be workable and would dissolve into feudalism once capitalists dominate the economy.
#14632179
AFAIK wrote:There are 2 types of freedom- freedom from and freedom to. Libertarianism is an individualistic ideology that focuses of freedom from interference and oppression by others. Originally a left wing ideology it also refers to small gov't right wing Americans who believe they should have the freedom to own land, commodities and other resources exclusive of anyone else.

Right-libertarianism has too many self-contradictions to be workable and would dissolve into feudalism once capitalists dominate the economy.


This is a generalization of the beliefs of the people who call themselves right wing libertarian and try to explain or describe how to implementation. Most people do not understand enough about politics to really say anything about politics even if they can name drop, and use big words like communism, socialism etc. If Politics was anything other field I would unilaterally declare the almost everyone guilty of mass incompetence and ignorance but instead it is such a loaded topic I just might as well have just declared war on the entire world. Luckily for me most of the people on the planet don't have much politic power so I don't have to go to war with them, I have to deal with their politicians and "two faced" like they are they will sometimes be nah we don't have issues just ignore them their idiots.
#14632183
Saeko wrote:Lol. After you're done with that, be sure to make pigs fly.


A substantial part of history is the stories of people organising themselves to stop the powerful from oppressing them, and in doing so, getting rid of certain hierarchies.

It is not impossible. It just takes a lot of hard work.
#14632186
Truth To Power wrote:What makes a nation-state not "local"? How big can a state be without being not-local?

In reality, there is nothing at all "phony" about the nation-state. States reliably beat non-states in inter-societal competition, and big states reliably beat small ones. Some artificial multi-ethnic nation-states like Yugoslavia, India, etc. are problematic to govern, but that doesn't mean they are phony or necessarily unworkable or unpeaceful, as Switzerland shows.


Actually most nation-states were created as administrative regions by colonial powers.

The concept of nation-states was created by the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648.

Nation-states are obviously not local. Except for Gambia, perhaps.

The formation of artificial nation-states is one of the most significant barriers to peace today.

Take Kuwait for example. It is a former British coaling station. It also strangles Iraq's access to the Persian Gulf.

This actually caused big problems in the Iran-Iraq War for Iraq, and has presented significant inhibitions economically, which has led to continuous tension since the formation of these states after WW1.

This isn't meant to be a pro-Iraq rant, it is just significant because of how the organization of nation-states works. It is dictated by the logic of self-serving inherently antagonistic specifically-defined territorial regions. The point is that the imposed definitions in the case of Iraq and Kuwait (and in countless other instances) inevitably led to considerable antagonism, and ultimately devastating war.

Local sovereignty means people living in a local area are in control of the things which directly influence their lives.

It seems utopian in the world of today, but the system we have is seriously flawed.

It might work okay in Europe (might), but not as a worldwide system.
#14632256
Big government is partly just consolidation, why have 100 redundant government organizations when you could have ten, why have fifty weak armies when you could shrink the armies by half band them together have a super power. It no different than any other economy of scale choice, sometimes big government is worse but you could consider it attempts at something similar to international law. Cultural consolidation Ghengis Khan was thousands of years ahead of his time, he promoted freedom of religion, any race could have any position in the government except the spots he reserved for himself and his kids. He was made the Silk Road a monstrous advancement for trade, single system of writing, he created common cultural adding standardization to half the world. If you don't just look at all the killing he did there are arguments to be made he made the world a better place and advanced society by many lifetimes.

But I don't subscribe to the idea of ever lasting consolidation, homogenization can have its downsides and go too far but the empire eventually fell. I just don't interpret empires eventually decaying to be failure and instead just part of their life cycle. Consolidation, diversification, consolidation, diversification, this is human nature, if international law was a more vibrant thing you would hardly notice it as a form of power centralization, instead what we actually have for a consolidation tool is empires and school yard bullying. How can I be libertarian and believe in big government, it depends on what kind of government there are different types of government. If all of humanity decided to band together and form a public school system worldwide, if I am not forced to participate I don't care, but its going to have government affiliations.
#14632383
Crantag wrote:Actually most nation-states were created as administrative regions by colonial powers.

True, and that is a problem. But it is a problem with how most nation-states were created, not with the concept of nation-states.
Nation-states are obviously not local. Except for Gambia, perhaps.

Many are small and effectively local.
The formation of artificial nation-states is one of the most significant barriers to peace today.

Yes, artificial nation-states are a huge problem, mostly because they are naturally hard to govern. They make little or no geographic, ethnographic, or political sense.
The point is that the imposed definitions in the case of Iraq and Kuwait (and in countless other instances) inevitably led to considerable antagonism, and ultimately devastating war.

Agreed. There needs to be a way to redraw borders.
Local sovereignty means people living in a local area are in control of the things which directly influence their lives.

But that doesn't require sovereignty.
It seems utopian in the world of today, but the system we have is seriously flawed.

Yes, it is flawed. But that is a problem with how nation-states are constituted, not with the concept.
It might work okay in Europe (might), but not as a worldwide system.

It works better in Europe because European nation-states mostly emerged naturally, rather than being imposed by colonial powers.
#14632446
Truth To Power wrote:Well, Rei might claim your liberty would include being free to enslave others...

In fact, I support slavery under some conditions.
For example, I believe prisoners should have the status of slaves and do some heavy duty work instead of laying around all day long and thinking shit.
#14632504
Truth To Power wrote:Well, Rei might claim your liberty would include being free to enslave others...

EU rope wrote:In fact, I support slavery under some conditions. :)

Shocker...
For example, I believe prisoners should have the status of slaves and do some heavy duty work instead of laying around all day long and thinking shit. 8)

Well, in fact, a lot of slave labor is performed in American prisons, which contract out convict labor to private businesses at far below minimum wage. The problem is that then all the other workers have to compete with slave labor, so it's a way of forcing down general wages. Most of the slaves are non-whites, so it is also a way of reinstating slavery based on race. The other problem with it is that when people can be enslaved by convicting them of crimes, there's a financial incentive for the state to convict and imprison them without looking too closely at the evidence.
#14632546
The formation of artificial nation-states is one of the most significant barriers to peace today.

A nation-state is a geographic entity where the nation (people) and the state (administration) overlap reasonably closely. You can have a state with multiple nations, such as Nigeria, or a nation with multiple states, such as the Korean peninsular. All nation-states are artificial with various myths and arbitrary laws holding them together. They do not develop naturally or organically.
#14632604
Truth To Power wrote:Most of the slaves are non-whites, so it is also a way of reinstating slavery based on race.

Not really, no. You don't put people in jail on a racial basis but on a crime basis.

Truth To Power wrote: The problem is that then all the other workers have to compete with slave labor, so it's a way of forcing down general wages.

Well, let them to build a Chinese wall on the Mexican border or something. It will save the US a lot of money and won't force down wages since it will be a free slave labour. You can always find work for the convicts, if you want to.
I don't buy this wage story since it's not a free market labour but a specific one.
#14632607
AFAIK wrote:A nation-state is a geographic entity where the nation (people) and the state (administration) overlap reasonably closely. You can have a state with multiple nations, such as Nigeria, or a nation with multiple states, such as the Korean peninsular. All nation-states are artificial with various myths and arbitrary laws holding them together. They do not develop naturally or organically.


That is both a lesson which was not necessary to me, and which does nothing at all to contradict anything I have said here.
#14632689
Okay, could you explain to me what is an artificial nation-state and how it differs from a naturally occurring one? The use of the word artificial implies there are natural or organic nation states. My claim that all nation states are artificial contradicts your statement since it implies some nation states are naturally occurring.

Earlier Crantag wrote:The formation of artificial nation-states is one of the most significant barriers to peace today.
Last edited by AFAIK on 15 Dec 2015 17:02, edited 1 time in total.
#14632694
Truth To Power wrote:Most of the slaves are non-whites, so it is also a way of reinstating slavery based on race.

EU rope wrote:Not really, no.

Yes, really.
You don't put people in jail on a racial basis but on a crime basis.

After you have forcibly deprived people, primarily on a racial basis, of opportunities to provide for themselves, then defined as "crimes" their peaceful, consensual efforts to provide for themselves...?

Somehow, I kinda figured it'd be something like that...
Truth To Power wrote: The problem is that then all the other workers have to compete with slave labor, so it's a way of forcing down general wages.

Well, let them to build a Chinese wall on the Mexican border or something.

Non sequitur. Illegal immigrants from Latin America are not in prison, working for a tiny fraction of minimum wage.
It will save the US a lot of money and won't force down wages since it will be a free slave labour.

Cet. par., population increase reduces wages and increases land rents. There is no getting around that fact of economics.
You can always find work for the convicts, if you want to.

Let them do something that does not put their slave labor in competition with workers' labor, e.g., doing something that we want done, but can't justify paying market labor to do, such as pick up trash from the streets and parks, sort refuse for recycling, etc.
I don't buy this wage story since it's not a free market labour but a specific one. :)

But you are just factually wrong. Many private firms use prison slave labor rather than market priced labor, and it is indisputable that this practice forces down wages across the board: those who are displaced by prison slave labor in specific markets then compete down wages in other labor markets, which displaces workers in those markets, etc.

Your excuses and rationalizations for the robbery and exploitation of working people cannot alter the facts of economics, sorry.
#14632723
Truth To Power wrote:...

I feel like we are speaking two different languages here. And since English is not mother tongue, I'll humbly step down in this argument. Now if you excuse me.
#14632889
AFAIK wrote:Okay, could you explain to me what is an artificial nation-state and how it differs from a naturally occurring one? The use of the word artificial implies there are natural or organic nation states. My claim that all nation states are artificial contradicts your statement since it implies some nation states are naturally occurring.



They are inherently artificial, although there is varying degrees of naturality in them. The most artificial though are the ones formed as administrative regions by colonial powers, especially in Africa and the Middle East.
#14632900
AFAIK wrote:There are 2 types of freedom- freedom from and freedom to.
No there aren't. The might be two forms of expression for the same freedom. Take the freedom to be free from land monopolies. Tyrannical Libertarian parasites think they should have freedom to steal land monopolies from us. They think they have the right to land monopolies.
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