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Classical liberalism. The individual before the state, non-interventionist, free-market based society.
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#14178080
Hi all just wanted to introduce myself. New member to the forums but have been reading it for awhile now. I was looking for a new libertarian oriented forum so Im hoping this is an active community with engaging discussions.

Anyway Im a libertarian but not an Anarcho Capitalist....yet.

I consider myself a Minarchist. Government only involved in the courts, military, police. No Intellectual property rights, government only protects you from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud. At least thats what I believe.

Id be interested in an Anarcho Capitalist explaining to me how laws would be enforced, and how this state or lack thereof would be protected from foreign aggression.
#14178081
Id be interested in an Anarcho Capitalist explaining to me how laws would be enforced,


The rich people would have private armies and everyone would else would have to choice to do as they were told or die.

Welcome of the forum. We do have a libertarian sub-forum so you should post there.
#14178438
Gavin23 wrote:I'd be interested in an Anarcho Capitalist explaining to me how laws would be enforced, and how this state or lack thereof would be protected from foreign aggression.

Welcome! You have come to the right place. There are quite a few of us libertarians here, about half of which are anarchists (my estimate - no formal poll).

In a libertarian anarchy (I don't like Anarcho-Capitalism for a reason that we can get into separately), there is only one fundamental law - the Non Aggression Principle. Only acts that violate the NAP count as criminal, and countered by force. Every NAP violation has a victim (the person who's rights were violated). The authority to use force ultimately comes from that victim.

Now just as most of us don't grow our own food, one would't expect the typical victim to enforce his own rights. Rather, one would expect a division of labour, whereby specialised organisations will emerge, providing the service of property right protection.

It is impossible to forecast what a market in property right protection services would look like. I have a specific model in mind, which should be treated as an illustration of one possible arrangement, with the understanding that many others are also possible.

In my model, there are several types of services being offered:
1. Passive or pre-emptive defence. That includes the equivalent of today's private security guards, but also neighbourhood patrols. Property owners, separately or (more likely) working together would hire the services of those private security firms.
2. Criminal Insurance. This is very important, as much of the crime problem is associated with its uncertain (and thus risky) character. Criminal Insurance can be seen as a close equivalent of Auto Insurance today. Similar to the latter, criminal insurance provides two separate types of protections. First, it protects victims by compensating them immediately for any losses due to criminal activity. Second, it compensate the victims of the policyholder for any damage caused by the policyholder (equivalent to 3rd party auto insurance).
3. Private Investigators. Firms specialising in identifying and collecting evidence against suspected criminals.
4. Arbitration. People are companies offering the service of arbitration over disputes. There are two modes of operation here:
a. Mutually-acceptable arbitration - the most common (and easy) case in which both sides to the dispute agree to use a given arbitrator, and to abide by their judgement.
b. One-sided arbitration - when the accused refuses to cooperate, and only the (alleged) victim appears in court.
5. Enforcement agencies. The main users of force in society, these agencies follow opinions issued by credible, respectable arbitration firms and enforce their judgement.
6. Private Jails - companies providing the service of secure accommodation and employment opportunities to convicted criminals. While superficially similar to state-run (or state-sponsored private) prisons, several major differences are noteworthy. First, a primary goal of the private jail is to allow the criminal to earn money with which to pay restitution to the victim, as well as support themselves. Second, the convicted criminal may choose amongst multiple competing (acceptably secure) "prisons". That element of choice ensures competition for comfort and productivity.
7. Information sharing agencies. Equivalent to today's credit reporting bureaus, these agencies facilitate the exchange of information regarding past criminality.

So how will the system work?

Most people will carry criminal insurance. As a victim of a crime, your first port of call is your insurance company. You report the crime and, in line with your contract with them, your insurance company compensates you for your loss (subject, perhaps, to a deductible). In return, the insurance company takes ownership over your right to claim compensation from the criminal.

The insurance company hires a private investigator to help identify, collect evidence against and, if appropriate, arrest the criminal.

We now have to distinguish several cases. The easiest (and most common) is when the criminal is also insured. In that case, the two insurance companies negotiate and reach agreement regarding both guilt and level of compensation. IF they cannot agree, they go to a mutually-acceptable arbitration firm, and subsequently abide by its decision. The terms of the agreement between the criminal and his insurance company may well stipulate that if found guilty of a voluntary crime (as opposed to causing damage by accident), the criminal would have to repay his insurance company. The company would have the right to garnish his wages and, in extreme cases, restrict him to a secure facility.

The second case is that the criminal isn't insured, but agrees with the victim's insurance company over an arbitration court. The court renders a decision that is subsequently enforced against the criminal.

The third, rarest and most complicated case involves a criminal who refuses to cooperate. In that case, the insurance company may go to a special court, present its evidence, and seek a one-sided judgement against the criminal. Naturally, that will only happen after the criminal has been awarded ample opportunity to participate in the selection of a mutually-acceptable arbitrator.

The accused criminal may well seek his own arbitration firm, and if the two firms reach contradictory conclusions, they would agree on a third firm to "break the tie".


There is much more to tell about this model, but I will address only one question here (you are welcome to ask more), namely, why would criminals wish to carry insurance in the first place?

Keep in mind that in a libertarian anarchy, all developed land areas are privately owned. Very few private landlords wish to allow criminals to enter their territory. In most cases, it is too difficult for the landlord to determine whether a given person is a potential criminal or not. The simplest solution is to insist that only people carrying valid criminal insurance are allowed in.

Thus a residential neighbourhood, a commercial district, a school or an industrial area may only allow people carrying a valid criminal insurance. Those not carrying insurance would find themselves effectively excluded from civilised society.

In fact, the prospect of such exclusion may well act as a most effective deterrent against criminality.


Your second question had to do with national defence.

Again, there is no single answer. Members of a libertarian anarchy are likely to be much better armed than people living under government rule today. They will also fiercely resist a foreign occupying force. A foreign force wouldn't have the convenient option of taking over the government of the occupied territory; they would have to fight for every house, every mile, every person.

The main goals of a foreign invading army aren't likely to be population centres so much as high value facilities, mainly banks (which store gold and other precious commodities) and industrial facilities (including mining, oil fields, etc.).

The owners of such high value targets in areas at risk of foreign occupation would have every incentive to purchase insurance and/or directly defend their assets. Thus private armies would be hired either directly by high-valued target owners or indirectly by their insurers.


Thus national defence would be comprised of both a self-help component (locally-organised militias) and a commercial, for-profit effort (paid by at-risk property owners).


I hope this gives you an initial flavour of how an anarchy can be both stable and viable.
#14178517
Interesting thanks for the thorough reply. While I like what your saying I cant help but feel that inevitably a government of sorts would arise just like it did historically. One could argue early human civilization started out Anarcho Capitalist of sorts but governments naturally came to power. This is why I think governments are inevitable evils but if we are forced to deal with them at least have them be Minarchist governments. (Side note you say Anarcho Capitalism IS Libertarian ideology rather than a subset or division of it, does that mean you disregard minarchist view points within the libertarian movement as 'non-libertarian')

So in the end Im starting to understand how it could function, as the example you laid out is just one of many ways, but now the question is how could it remain functioning? As in what prevents a government from rising when one or many groups decide they want control? Another question would be how do we realistically reach this world? Do you believe in an all or nothing approach or a gradual reinstatement of liberty and freedom in society?

Now some of the things you described I already understood and we can even see similar examples in today's statist societies (Information sharing, Private Prions {To an extend} private investigators and even criminal insurance) but the others such as Private police/enforcement agencies (Not just security but organizations that have the power to actually enforce and protect the law) I see a problem with. Would they not then have an economic incentive (as some of the other institutions you laid out) for levels of crime to be increased in order to increase business? Same with private fire fighters.
#14179061
While I like what your saying I cant help but feel that inevitably a government of sorts would arise just like it did historically.

The first reaction to that statement is that while you may well be right, that risk doesn't take away from the goal of eliminating government. Compare government to criminality. We may never live in a society without criminality, but we still can (and ought to) fight to reduce (genuine) criminality.

The second reaction is that no system of governance can be guaranteed to be stable. An anarchy may degenerate back to government. A minarchy may find the scope of government gradually increased (note the American experience). Even a democracy may be overturned (a fairly regular occurrence in some parts of the world).

The way I approach this is to ask about the necessary pre-requisite for a libertarian anarchy to be stable. To answer the question, first turn your gaze on "ordinary" modern-style liberal democracies. While the established western democracies appear to be stable beyond question, that hasn't always been the case, and certainly isn't the case elsewhere. Why is it then that the idea of an American elected president using the military to take over government is unthinkable, while a similar event in, say, Egypt or Venezuela certainly isn't?

The answer, I believe, lies with the political culture of the society under question. As long as the belief in constitutional democracy as the source of political legitimacy is strong and widespread, a military coup is unthinkable.

Now come back to a libertarian anarchy. As long as the belief in the NAP as the basis for political (in the broad sense) legitimacy is strong and widespread, a return of government would be as unthinkable as an American military coup.

Would they not then have an economic incentive (as some of the other institutions you laid out) for levels of crime to be increased in order to increase business? Same with private fire fighters.

The same question can be asked about today's doctors and car mechanics, as well as public fire-fighters (in fact, because public employees do not depend on consumer consent, the risk of having problems perpetuated by those tasked at solving them is much more acute in the public sector).

One simple answer is to recall the role of insurance companies. Insurance companies compensate victims of criminal activity. Consequently, they are directly motivated to try and reduce crime. As long as they are in control of hiring and deploying enforcement agency personnel, the risk of the latter purposefully acting to increase criminality (or even not being sufficiently diligent at combating it) is greatly mitigated.

Finally, keep in mind that unlike police officers today, employees of enforcement agencies do not enjoy any particular legal privilege. Thus an employee of such an agency who breaks into a house to repossess a TV set could be charged with burglary. If found guilty, that employee would be personally liable (again, no functional immunity).

The only way to get responsible people to work for an enforcement agency (given that risk) would be to provide them with an insurance policy that would cover any liability incurred upon them as part of performing their job. That insurance policy, to be credible, would have to come from an independent insurance company (rather than from the enforcement agency itself). The insuring company, in turn, would insist on a set of practices that minimises the probability of an insured employee being found guilty of aggression. The most obvious practice is to only use force following clear opinions issued by credible (and rarely reversed) arbitration firms.

You can see, I hope, how everything fits together. An arbitration firm thrives on reputation for issuing clear and rarely reversed opinions. It is in their strong interest to maintain reputation for objectivity and competence. A rogue enforcement agency will quickly be sued, lose its insurance cover and employees, and quickly go out of business. Knowing that, reputable enforcement agencies will exert tight control over their employees. Etc.
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