Eran and iakobos discuss libertarianism - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Classical liberalism. The individual before the state, non-interventionist, free-market based society.
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#14239148
Again, in an An Cap society, corporations running prisons must be profitable.

Not so - they could be charitably-funded.

Profitability is pretty tough to achieve even when you get to choose your employees. It'll be an order of magnitude more difficult when your employees are the worst of the worst.

That problem is mitigated by your ability to restrict the freedom of those employees, and pay them below-market wages.

And "the worst of the worst" adopt very different attitudes when their next meal depends on behaving themselves.

Government should imprison (and sometimes kill) criminals.

In other words, people should be forced to pay for the upkeep of those "worst of the worst"? But then if you believe a democratic government would support paying for the upkeep of criminals, that must indicate that you believe most voting members of society believe in the justice/wisdom of providing such support.

If that is the case, why do you doubt that unprofitable prisons could obtain sufficient voluntary support from those very same citizens?

How do you justify forcing people to pay for the upkeep of criminals, but not for forcing people to pay for the upkeep of the "deserving poor"?

Your hangup is your inability to imagine that in a society where the NAP is widely recognized as legitimate, people would be willing to cough up enough money voluntarily to fund government which is restricted to running the military and the justice system.

Hold on. If people are willing to cough up enough money voluntarily to fund a range of government services (including the upkeep of prisoners), why wouldn't they willing to cough up a fraction of that amount to merely fund charitable prisons?

But to your main point, no, this isn't my hangup. I am willing to accept a voluntarily-funded organisation performing many of the criminal-justice and national-security functions of today's government.

My "hangup" is related to understanding under what grounds such an organisation can justify a monopoly in providing those services.

If government agents, for example, are allowed to arrest criminals (presumably by following a certain procedure, e.g. by following court orders), how are they justified in prohibiting agents of a different organisation from arresting criminals (if those agents follow the same or comparable procedures to avoid abuse)?

The injustice of voluntarily-funded government is in its use of aggressive force to prohibit competitors.
#14240741
Eran wrote:Not so - they could be charitably-funded.

I would like to elaborate on this point. People seem to think: "if it's not government, then it must be for-profit". But this is a false dichotomy. Many alternative organizational forms exist today. This forms rang from: charitable giving (rich give to poor), but can also be cooperatives (the organization is owned by the community and exists in the first place to provide certain services for the community rather than to make profit). For example neighbourhood associations.
#14241107
Indeed.

Phred's view is particularly strange.

He seriously contemplates a voluntarily-funded minimal government (which would fund, presumably, policing, courts, national defence as well as the prison system).

Yet he ignores the possibility that a subset of the functions of that government (namely a skeleton prison system handling the "worst of the worst") could itself be voluntarily funded.
#14269004
This is the kind of discussion I hoped to see when I checked in to this zoo. With so many compartments in this forum for like-minded individuals to discuss and refine their own philosophies, the libertarian section seems to attract trolls and socialists with no desire other than to tell libertarians why they wrong and inherently evil. This is not to disparage the small number who are exploring the libertarian philosophy and have legitimate questions.

This thread is remarkably free of such intrusions and is therefore able to pose many points worthy of discussion within a libertarian framework. It is refreshing and at some time I will enjoy adding my voice.
#14269073
Eran wrote:My "hangup" is related to understanding under what grounds such an organisation can justify a monopoly in providing those services.

Yes, this is indeed an actual hangup of yours - a mental stumbling block. You have never provided a convincing explanation of the benefits of competing law enforcement agencies. I have no objection in principle to various prisons competing for the slave labor generated by a judiciary. My objection has always been to competing judiciaries following competing legal codes.

You seem to believe it is advantageous to have many different agencies (whose method of operation necessarily involves utilizing force against humans who object to having that forced used against them) making decisions that may run exactly counter to three similar agencies down the street. Yet whenever you are asked how it is decided which of two opposing rulings should stand, you just say that this is unlikely to occur - that all these agencies will follow the broad societal consensus. That the NAP will ensure there are no disagreements. You ignore the fact that on many key matters, there is no broad consensus. Abortion, for one. The US is almost exactly perfectly divided on that issue. It's as close to a fifty-fifty issue as you're likely to come across.

If government agents, for example, are allowed to arrest criminals (presumably by following a certain procedure, e.g. by following court orders), how are they justified in prohibiting agents of a different organisation from arresting criminals (if those agents follow the same or comparable procedures to avoid abuse)?

At present, they don't prohibit such actions. See "citizen's arrest".

Again, the crux of the dilemma here isn't who brings an accused miscreant before a judging body, or who incarcerates that miscreant once he has been deemed by that body to be fit to incarcerate. Those are actually relatively minor side issues. What matters is the legal code under which the judging body operates. If all judging bodies operate under the exact same legal code, then there is no problem. But your previous posts on the matter show you as touting differing legal codes as a feature (not a bug) of your preferred justice system. What one court may find a heinous crime worthy of incarceration another may find so innocuous that it would entertain a countersuit by the "falsely arrested" person against the organization who detained her.

Without a single overarching authority to decide among conflicting rulings, there is chaos.


Phred
#14269464
Phred wrote:You have never provided a convincing explanation of the benefits of competing law enforcement agencies.

I don't understand why this is a puzzle to any libertarian.

We exalt the benefits of competition in virtually any other industry, from food to retailing, education to health-care. What makes you think competition wouldn't be as beneficial in the field of protecting people's property rights?

There are many different ways of protecting people. From armed patrols to quick responses, from locks and fences to private guards. There are many different ways of identifying and collecting evidence against criminals. Some investigators are better or more talented than others. Some investigatory techniques are more productive. There is ample room for competition and innovation on those fronts.

In fact, we already have a thriving competitive market in private security, private investigations, private arbitration, debt collection, re-possessions and bounty hunting, all aspects of property right protection.

My objection has always been to competing judiciaries following competing legal codes.

Indeed this seems to be the main stumbling block. Let me start by explaining why I don't believe competing legal regimes. By "legal regime" I mean the effective combination of an underlying legal code with legal principles, rules (e.g. rules of evidence and interpretation), procedures (e.g. trial by jury) and institutions (e.g. court systems) which ultimately determines what constitutes a legitimate use of force within society.

A legal regime is an essential part, though only a part of the broader "law-and-order" service provision, the latter including pre-crime prevention, post-crime investigation, suspect apprehension, and sentence enforcement.


I will start by trying to explain why I believe a diversity of legal regimes is possible and benign. Following that, I will try to illustrate where competition and market discovery can contribute towards creating better legal regimes.


Diversity of opinion on questions of legal regimes is ubiquitous in our society. Issues of legal (mainly constitutional) interpretation have become a major issue in American politics. Even legal codes proliferate. At one end, every municipality has its own set of rules and regulations. Individual states have completely different, independent and semi-sovereign legal codes. Globalisation means that our interaction with people living under a different national government is increasingly frequent, yet such interactions tend to be peaceful, despite lack of a unified global legal code.

The choice, then, isn't between having a single, unified, universally-accepted legal regime vs. having a jungle of conflicting and competing ones. Rather, the choice is as to which mechanisms are used to determine which legal regime applies to different conflicts.

The current system provides that a regional democratic process (with varying size regions, from municipalities to the entire nation) determines, in a highly indirect way, the legal regime to apply within the geographic bounds of the region.

The alternative I am proposing would allow much more flexibility to the sides of the dispute to determine the legal regime under which their conflict is resolved. When such cooperation isn't reasonably possible, geography does kick in, with the (reasonable) choice of the land-owner determining the applicable legal regime for acts taking place on his land.

A reasonable concern is that when land ownership is fragmented, a proliferation of different legal regimes within a small geographic area (e.g. that traversed by most people every day) may lead to confusion and inefficiency. Yet today, millions of people commute daily across legal regime boundaries at the municipal, state and even national level. These boundary crossings are so unproblematic, that even scaled up, the issue will remain a non-issue.

A second concern is that while a single authority exists as the "adjudicator of last resort" to peacefully resolve inter-jurisdictional disputes at the national level, no single such authority will exist in an anarchy. First, higher-level enforcement isn't available to resolve international disputes. The possibility that such disputes between "responsible" nations, originating from inter-individual conflicts and escalated to the national level, would result in armed conflict is so remote as to be unthinkable.

Reason dictates and experience shows that governments are much more likely to result to force than would private organisations, primarily due to the ability of government decision-makers to externalise the cost of violent conflict in ways not available to private organisations. It then follows that armed conflicts between the anarchic equivalents of national states (be it enforcement agencies or insurance companies) result from an escalation of a dispute between their clients is even more remote.

Even at the national level, inter-jurisdictional disputes are rarely raised to the national level for resolution. How many Supreme Court decisions nowadays deal with conflicts between two states over an issue originating in a dispute between their respective residents? States (and lower-level jurisdictions) have long since adopted conventions and understandings that allow them to resolve jurisdictional issues without resorting to a higher authority. Again, private organisations would be even more motivated, creative and innovative about similarly finding peaceful resolution to jurisdictional issues.

Finally, you correctly bring up the point that disputes over the interpretation of the NAP are not just possible, but highly likely, and not just over marginal, rare or inconsequential issues. Abortion is but the most obvious example.

The NAP would serve, in the society I am advocating, a similar role to that of the US Constitution in contemporary American society. Disputes over constitutional interpretation, as mentioned above, are both common and important to many people. The issue of abortion, again, comes to mind. Yet despite these deep conflicts, American society (with the rare and marginalised exception of those bombing abortion clinics) isn't descending into an armed conflict.

As current events in Egypt demonstrate, having a written constitution and the other institutions of democracy is far from a guarantee of peaceful resolution of political conflicts, nor is the concentration of physical power in the hands of a single organisation. What explains the stability of the American society in the face of deep conflicts over constitutional interpretation, compared with the instability of Egyptian society?

The answer, I claim, is that while Americans are deeply divided over what the Constitution means, there is a very broad consensus over how such disputes are to be peacefully resolved. The US Supreme Court is acknowledged by all but a tiny and inconsequential minority to be the final arbiter of constitutional questions. Even those who disagree, often deeply, with its decisions, agree to abide by them.

Going back to an NAP-based anarchy, disputes over interpretation of the NAP are far from fatal - provided only that there is a broad consensus over what constitutes a legitimate means for resolving those disputes. The consensus, I suggest, which will naturally emerge would be focused on the basic principle of using peaceful means to resolve disputes, together with a "short list" of highly-credible judicial authorities deemed acceptable at resolving those disputes.

So, is abortion going to be legal? The answer is that we are probably going to go back to a pre-Row vs. Wade world in which the answer varies by location. Yet just as border skirmishes between abortion-allowing and abortion-prohibiting states didn't take place before 1973, so is the diversity of legal attitudes towards abortion unlikely to result in violence in an NAP-based society.

Of course just because legal regime proliferation is allowed need not mean that actual regimes will differ radically. Some uniformity and consistency of legal regimes is highly desirable. It makes people's lives more predictable and less risky. Market processes will thus naturally result in (partial) convergence. Just as the traffic signs used by different states follow a consistent pattern, so would we see standardisation of legal regimes within society.


As promised, let me write a few words about the great advantages of the market process in determining (and continually improving) legal regimes. You and I don't trust government to decide what car we will drive, what food we will eat, or what (peaceful) organisations we should belong to. In part, this is because we value individual freedom in making personal choices. In part it is because we recognise that the market process whereby organisations compete for providing consumers with desired products and services is one resulting in the best possible results in virtually all industries.

Many of the aspects of a legal regime - standard of proof, the use of juries, rules of evidence, allow many choices all consistent with our basic notions of justice. How is society to choose between them? The current process puts politicians in control, either directly (through legislation) or indirectly (through the nomination and confirmation of judges and justices). As a libertarian, you must hold such process as suspect. Can the free market do better?

The key difference between my choice of food and car, and the choice of legal regime seems to be that while my food and car choices affect mainly myself (as long as I don't violate other people's property rights), legal regime is inherently only applicable in cases of dispute, i.e. cases involving not just myself, but also others. The choice must be mutual, it would seem.

In some cases, making that choice mutually is fairly straightforward. Whenever a contract is explicitly signed, it can (as international contracts today typically do) clauses stipulating the legal regime (usually simply jurisdiction, but sometimes also arbitration procedures) to apply in the case of dispute. The contract can be explicit, but it can also be implicit. For example, when I enter a shopping mall, I implicitly agree to abide by their posted rules.

But what about violent crime? Nobody signs a legal contract with their burglar or rapist! Well, not explicitly, anyway. But an implicit contract may well be in place. Since the rapist and his victim are generally found in the same physical location, both of them implicitly agreed to whatever terms and conditions that owner of the land where they both find themselves set as condition for entering his land.

Land-owners wishing to allow others on their land (e.g. owners of shopping malls) have an interest in subscribing to a good legal regime - one that balances the protection from violence desired by their customers with the concern about false conviction and excessive fines that an overly-harsh regime would create.

I have more to say about disputes arising without physical proximity (e.g. pollution), defence against unreasonably pro-resident legal regimes and the use of insurance companies to mitigate both, but I will stop here for now.


You seem to believe it is advantageous to have many different agencies (whose method of operation necessarily involves utilizing force against humans who object to having that forced used against them) making decisions that may run exactly counter to three similar agencies down the street.

They may, but are highly unlikely to.

Consider how police works in the United States. Generally, every town has its own police force, as does every county. Does that mean that police forces from different town regularly engage in gun battles? Of course not. When a suspect attempts escape, neighbouring police forces are much more likely to assist than to fight each other. Police forces are subject to democratic control. Are you concerned about the residents of a small town electing a police chief with the understanding that he will fight the police forces of a neighbouring town when they escape having committed a crime there? The very notion seems outlandish. Why then do you expect such occurrences to be any more common in an anarchy?

At present, they don't prohibit such actions. See "citizen's arrest".

A "citizen arrest" is an example of government authorising others to use force in very circumscribed circumstances. But say I set up a competing police force, adhering to all the legal restrictions to which the current police force is subject. My officers will respect civil rights, read suspects their Mirandas, and bring them in front of a judge following precisely the same procedure as government's officers.

If I tried that, I would be arrested on kidnapping charges in no time.

Without a single overarching authority to decide among conflicting rulings, there is chaos.

The focus of some minarchists (such as yourself) on the need for a single, universally-accepted "judge of last resort" has made me think of the concept of an "ultra-minimal state" (different from Nozick's notion of the same term). In my ultra-minimal state, government comprises exclusively of a Supreme Court.

That court is broadly acknowledged (as is today's USSC) as the ultimate judicial authority, and acts primarily as a court of final appeal when decisions of lower (and private) courts are challenged. Its decisions, in turn, are enforced by private organisations.

What such an ultra-minimal state satisfy your concerns over anarchy?
#14269481
A note on uninsured victims of crimes.

Crimes occur in specific locations. If an uninsured person is murdered in a residential area, shopping district or office block the owners of properties and businesses in the area may wish to pursue the villain in order to achieve justice and to deter other criminals. Perhaps jails would be included as part of a gated community, shopping district, etc.

I'd be very surprised if there were no charities assisting victims, suspects or convicts. I know of several currently operating in Cambodia. If convicts can choose where they are imprisoned they are likely to live in facilities close to family, friends or others who are sympathetic enough to support them.

I like the idea of their punishment being structured in a manner that maximises restitution but what if victims wish for the offender to be permanently segregated or removed from society? A repeat offender or serial killer for example.
#14269492
Phred, a problem I see with the hypothesis so far is too much traditional thinking imprinted on our vision of a true libertarian society.

I don't see incarceration or forced restitution as an option at all. If one person damages another, there is a debt to be paid. Send the repo man.

Also, I do not see what place a legal "code" would have in such a society. The present legal codes are the whim of the majority. Was a person damaged? What will make this person whole again? This is the libertarian legal code.

And how many private courts will it take to determine who owes whom and how much? Two out of three? Four out of seven? Got to win by two? I'll trust the market before I trust socialists.
#14269538
A note on uninsured victims of crimes.

In addition to all the excellent points you make, the legal system I advocate would include the ability of the victim (or his heirs) selling their restitution rights to another person (or company).

This way, they get an immediate compensation (albeit one that may, if restitution extraction potential is limited, be less than their full damages), while the person who purchased the right is presumably better situated to pursue the criminal.

what if victims wish for the offender to be permanently segregated or removed from society? A repeat offender or serial killer for example.

In the first instance, land owners would be both motivated and legally entitled to exclude such offenders from their land. A repeat offender may thus find themselves excluded from all but their own land or unimproved, wild lands (or isolated criminal communities). In fact, with an effective exclusion of repeat offenders, such people may well submit to voluntary incarceration as the best means available to them to feed themselves.

If a person becomes a credible danger to other members of society, it may be permissible to arrest them as a defensive measure. This is a dangerous measure, and would hopefully only be used as a last resort.
#14269565
Eran wrote:If a person becomes a credible danger to other members of society, it may be permissible to arrest them as a defensive measure. This is a dangerous measure, and would hopefully only be used as a last resort.


Can you go into some specifics on circumstances and how this would be justified?
#14269572
Can you go into some specifics on circumstances and how this would be justified?

A violent criminal with a history of repeated assaults roams the city, trespassing into private streets, malls and residential areas. He is repeatedly warned following both trespassing and actual violent assaults on residents.

On his third such apprehension, he is warned that, caught again, he may be incarcerated against his will as a danger to the public.

He is caught again.

At this point, it is hard to see any alternative to defensive incarceration.
#14270484
I may be making unconscious assumptions about the details of such a defensive confinement that may have more to do with the present system than a libertarian solution. But here are some thoughts...

It is arbitrary. Even when only incarcerating a trespasser on his third offense. That's a pretty stiff penalty for encroachment without damage. Without damage, there is no restitution involved. How do you calculate the length of sentence?

Absent a life sentence, or a threat expiration date, the threat is merely put on hold. Likewise, it is only a temporary band-aid for emotional stress of the victim.

And there is the obvious question of who pays. The "work or starve" scenario for an inmate is very shaky.

As you can see these objections lean to the practical side. I won't go into my personal view because I want to be able to make it up on the spot when facing voir dire in my next jury pool.

I will say that I think the scenario described by Eran is a very special one and unlikely to occur. In a libertarian world householders will see to their own defense, either on their own or contracted. There are many neighborhoods now with homeowner associations (patterned after condo associations) which contract for garbage pickup, snow removal and whatever -- just add security. That a violence-prone miscreant would live to make a third run at the same house or neighborhood is highly unlikely in my estimation.

I have the confidence of someone who knows he will never live to see it, that predators will not fair well in a libertarian society.
#14270536
Eran wrote:We exalt the benefits of competition in virtually any other industry, from food to retailing, education to health-care. What makes you think competition wouldn't be as beneficial in the field of protecting people's property rights?

No, we don't. For example, WW2 could be called a competition, but we don't particularly exalt its benefits.

We exalt the benefits of creating markets approximating perfect competition, because that leads to increasing surplus in the economy. That's quite different from your simplistic idea of taking a word like "competition" and declaring it universally good, no matter what context.

In particular, one of the conditions required for such a market is operating in an environment with safe property rights for participants.
#14270787
MrAnthrope wrote:It is arbitrary. Even when only incarcerating a trespasser on his third offence. That's a pretty stiff penalty for encroachment without damage. Without damage, there is no restitution involved. How do you calculate the length of sentence?

That's an excellent question to which I don't have an excellent answer.

One approach is to assess a modest fine for trespassing. Say $10 for the second offence (the first one only gets you a warning), covering not any damage (since you didn't cause one), but merely the (reasonable) cost of evicting you from the private property.

Once the fine has been assessed, reviewed and declared legitimate by a valid court (the opinion of which is, of course, rebuttable), the use of force becomes more easily justified.

Compare to the behaviour of countries today as they encounter illegal immigrants. Those might be merely returned across the border for the first violation, but government reserves the right to imprison repeat offenders.

Incarceration wouldn't be the result of peaceful trespassing, but only of repeat violent offences, for which most criminals will quickly be unable to pay.


In all sentences, whether for trespassing or for violent offences, the convicted person can generally choose the facility, amongst those willing to guarantee that he either pays his due or stays confined. This rule will allow for a competitive market in holding facilities, balancing the security of the arrest with the best possible conditions for the confinee.

Convicted criminals deemed to dangerous by the community may well confine themselves voluntarily to specialised communities which would allow them to live and work. This is a little like Florida's Sex Offender Village

lucky wrote:No, we don't. For example, WW2 could be called a competition, but we don't particularly exalt its benefits.

Let me rephrase to clarift. We exalt the benefits of peaceful competition (i.e. competition in which the property rights of others are preserved) in virtually any other industry, from food to retailing, education to health-care. What makes you think peaceful competition (i.e. competition in which the property rights of others are preserved) wouldn't be as beneficial in the field of protecting people's property rights?


With this clarifying rephrasing, WW2 is obviously not a competition of the kind I had in mind.

We exalt the benefits of creating markets approximating perfect competition, because that leads to increasing surplus in the economy. That's quite different from your simplistic idea of taking a word like "competition" and declaring it universally good, no matter what context.

"Approximating perfect competition" isn't at all necessary for competitive markets to be beneficial. There are many markets in which competition is far from the idealised perfection of mathematical economics. The art market, for example, in which each piece is unique, and every artist enjoys a perfect monopoly over his own works.

The degree to which a market resembles this theoretical construct of mathematical economists is completely beside the point. Competition is valuable whenever it is peaceful, i.e. whenever property rights are respected.

In particular, one of the conditions required for such a market is operating in an environment with safe property rights for participants.

The one and, in my opinion, only condition.

For this to be a critic of anarchy, you must implicitly assume that protecting property rights cannot be done without violating property rights. Is that your contention?

To be clear, in my opinion, competitors in the market for securing property rights, from private guards through private investigators, arbitration firms and enforcement agencies, all the way to private incarceration facilities would all have to respect other people's property rights, and would be subject to prosecution just like private citizens if they don't.
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