[Husky]

In my country, South Africa, the police are incredibly inefficient, corrupt and, quite frankly, useless. Anyone reading this in the West cannot relate one bit. The police take 20 minutes to arrive, if arriving at all, they are lazy, they often ruin the crime scene, promise to investigate crimes and never get back to you, etc. To couple this inefficiency, crime is rampant, both in poverty-stricken and middle class neighbourhoods.

The solution has been the rise of a huge private security industry. Not just for the rich and elite: most middle class households have private security of some form. Most have burglar bars, internal alarms that alert these private security companies, etc.

How it works is if your alarm is triggered, a signal is sent to the company and they arrive within 5 minutes usually. Quite remarkable, they are on par with the police forces of most Western countries. You pay a monthly membership fee in order to have access to the services.

The private protection services do not detain criminals but they are indeed armed, have bullet proof vehicles, etc, and they can arrest and do arrest criminals but do not detain them. They simply hand them over to the police. They even help the police in compiling evidence, etc.

This service is amazing. If you see someone suspicious in your neighbourhood, you can call them to sort it out/ interrogate the person. In emergencies, one always calls the protection agency over the police force. Calling the protection agency is the equivalent of calling 911.

Now, if these services are anything to go by, considering they are defying all odds, by being relatively cheap and efficient, then the idea of protection agencies under libertarian anarchy is in fact a promising idea/concept.

Cheap membership cost, highly responsive, etc, without these services I would have been a victim to countless more crimes. It's basically a necessity to subscribe to one of these services, just as high a priority as buying groceries.

[AFAIK]

This is of great interest to me as I live in Phnom Penh, Cambodia.

Someone recently posted a story on a (non-existent) local message board about his experience calling the medical emergency number. Fortunately he came to his senses before losing consciousness/ control of his speech and called a private hospital (there's only one to consider in this situation).

Cops in Cambodia- good luck is the short answer. My girlfriend's brother in law is a cop, a local friend worked as a crime reporter and is now a civil servant. These are people to contact. Tourists should contact their guest house or hotel before the police in many circumstances. They feel more responsibility and empathy towards you.

Most private security is a joke. A guy earning $2 a day to guard parked cars or locked gates is corruptible. Many burglaries are inside jobs.

How about utilities- Water and electricity are provided by state owned companies which are doing a good job so far. Phnom Penh won an award for its water services. Gas is delivered by private companies in cylinders tied on the back of motorbikes.

[AFAIK]

How it works is if your alarm is triggered, a signal is sent to the company and they arrive within 5 minutes usually. Quite remarkable, they are on par with the police forces of most Western countries. You pay a monthly membership fee in order to have access to the services.

Similar systems are available in USA and other countries. I believe the company calls you and asks for a safe word. If your under duress you say one thing if everything is fine another. All sorts of options are available.

Are gated communities popular in S Africa?
They're pretty rare in Cambodia.

[Oakwood]

How much does it cost to sign up with one of these companies? I'm not sure about having law and order being outsourced like that to a group that isn't the official police, it sounds as though they could take matters into their own hands quite easily. But if the government/police force in South Africa are as much a failure as they're made out to be, its only natural that people would want some extra protection. How are these security contractors regulated (if at all) and can you think of any cases where they've killed someone and what happened as a result of it?

[Husky]

Similar systems are available in USA and other countries. I believe the company calls you and asks for a safe word. If your under duress you say one thing if everything is fine another. All sorts of options are available.

Yes, they call you and ask for your password. But the service is quite sophisticated. If, for instance, a burglar is in your house and tells you to disarm your alarm and tell the protection service everything is alright, you can punch a special code into your alarm, de-activating it but also sending an "ambush" signal to the protection agency, prompting them to send personnel immediately and not call you.

There are different levels of membership, with the service offered improving with the more you pay. The amazing thing is that the entry cost, which is really cheap, covers you for lots of emergencies: an alarm is fitted in your house, various panic buttons you can press to alert them etc., and it's part of their service to patrol your roads a couple of times a day. Almost a de facto police force, considering the real police force are non-existent (and I mean this literally).

Are gated communities popular in S Africa?

They are very common among the white middle class. Remember, this country is marked by intense and polarizing poverty, with a small minority, who previously oppressed the large majority, controlling most of the wealth and land.

Most gated communities have security booths at the entrance to the road, and you have to sign in to visit friends etc. All borders of the community are usually enclosed with high walls with electric fencing on the top, and with beams that trigger off alarms if you step onto the property. I'm not talking about the elite here; just the middle class. Lower income groups mostly band together and form community watch groups. When I was in a poverty stricken area growing up I remember going on patrols with my dad. Not for the faint hearted.

Most private security is a joke. A guy earning $2 a day to guard parked cars or locked gates is corruptible. Many burglaries are inside jobs.

I agree that parking marshals are a joke. Here, homeless people pretend to be parking guards. It's a joke indeed.

But here private security is dominated by 3 or 4 major players, who are very reliable and trustworthy. My experience with the one has been great: they have prevented 2 burglaries already, they always come promptly, etc. They are professional: they have proper squads for high risk situations, armored vehicles, etc. They're not phonies like car guards.

How much does it cost to sign up with one of these companies?

About $50 a month, but your area's risk of crime influences this figure. I'd say this figure was for entry level, medium risk suburbs.

I'm not sure about having law and order being outsourced like that to a group that isn't the official police, it sounds as though they could take matters into their own hands quite easily.

The sad reality is that in remote areas, like on farm estates, the security services there do take matters into their own hands in grotesque ways, like beating detainees with baseball bats. The other sad reality is it is necessary.

But if the government/police force in South Africa are as much a failure as they're made out to be, its only natural that people would want some extra protection. How are these security contractors regulated (if at all) and can you think of any cases where they've killed someone and what happened as a result of it?

On paper they are regulated, sure, but in practice, particularly the smaller, lesser-known protection agencies have a history of being brutal, wrongfully detaining people, etc. It's a dangerous situation indeed.

Here's a really interesting documentary that appeared on the BBC with Louis Theroux, showcasing private agencies in Johannesburg. Brilliant documentary.

[youtube]rswbjECsuFA[/youtube]

[AFAIK]

Vigilantism in Cambodia.

Emphasis added.

Two men were beaten – one nearly to death – by a mob early yesterday morning in Phnom Penh’s Por Sen Chey district when a man called for help after they allegedly attempted to steal his motorcycle.
.
.
“The suspects may have died if police did not arrive on time because they were outnumbered; they will be charged and sent to court if police find out they are involved in the robbery,” Chantha said.
.
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According to Chantha, 26-year-old Samrith Serey claimed he parked his bike in front of his front gate and was calling a family member on the phone to be let in when three men rode past him and then doubled back hitting him with a stick. Serey shouted for help, sending one suspect fleeing, but nearby residents then surrounded the remaining two and began beating them.

Seyla told police that residents only assumed they were robbers. He claimed they were riding past when Serey began cursing at them so they hit him with a stick. Serey seized the suspects’ stick and beat them with it. Seyla and Lin got on their knees and apologised to Serey but to no avail. Bystanders also began using sticks and stones to beat the suspects.
.
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Despite increased police presence, mob violence continues to plague the Kingdom due – say many rights monitors – to a lack of faith in the judicial system. Perpetrators are rarely, if ever, prosecuted.

Ny Chakrya, head of Adhoc’s human rights program, said in “a case of robbery and the victim shouts for help, people can arrest them and hand them over to police, but if the thieves have no possibility to fight back, and [the vigilantes] still hit them . . . they are guilty.”

http://www.phnompenhpost.com/2013062166 ... y-mob.html

Phone mob goes after customer-cum-thief
A group of phone shop customers in Phnom Penh’s Meanchey district badly beat a not-very-cool customer on Monday after it turned out he was there to steal what they were there to buy. Police said the phony shopper tried to sneak away with a mobile phone while the salespeople were busy with others but was spotted while climbing onto his motorbike. The angry customers, along with a motodop [motorcycle taxi], chased after him, caught him and beat him unconscious. Police sent him to hospital and humbly asked the mob not to beat up suspects in future. Kampuchea Thmey

I read this in the same paper as above but cannot track down the page.

Sometimes mobs beat police who demand bribes or cause crashes by hitting/ kicking motorbikes that fail to stop at check-points.

[Husky]

Here, in the Townships, mob rule and mob justice run rampant, considering little police involvement in the areas due to the high risk nature. If you steal, you run risk of being burned alive. When tyranny is afflicted upon people, people react in violent ways.

I do not condone nor condemn mob justice. In many (sad) ways it is necessary and helps to improve the safety of communities.

I really recommend you watch that documentary. It is excellent.

What message can we learn from these Townships? The effects of Apartheid are not going away anytime soon. Low economic growth, relative to other developing nations, high inflation, very high unemployment, severe government corruption, and a fading of foreign investment are all problems of the future and not just the present.

So how did my country's situation influence my political belief? I have seen what big government does, and what big government being in bed with trade unions does. Higher minimum wages? "YES!" cries the mob. People here are more ignorant than in the West. Politicians lap this ignorance up to win votes by casting dodgy policies.

The worst part is I am not sure what (if anything at all) is going to solves these seemingly systemic problems.

[AFAIK]

Someone reflecting on the end of apartheid;
We have moved the chains from our necks to our ankles.

Can you recommend any books/ essays/ websites where I can learn about South Africa's current affairs, Husky?

Edit;
Thanks for the video- I will watch it when I'm using the wi-fi later. Save some money....

Cambodia also has a lack of law and order. Many people (especially elder generations) continue to live under self- imposed curfews. Dusk till dawn (6 am to 6 pm) curfews were common in the 1990s. Those driving after dark wouldn't stop at traffic lights as doing so was an invitation to get robbed. Today, driving fast at night is often safer than slow driving as it deters moto thieves who shoot drivers before stealing their vehicles. Crashing at speed is likely to cause significant damage to the bike.

As much as people complain about police demanding bribes, refusing to work without payment or pressuring victims of crimes to accept monetary compensation so that they can take a healthy cut (along with witnesses who demand a slice) a state monopoly on the use of force is very attractive to many especially as state force can be directed and curtailed more effectively then private initiatives. The state also attempts to prevent crime and rehabilitate offenders. The private companies you mentioned have an interest in maintaining crime as it keeps them in business.

Read Guns, girls and ganja- a silly account of expat depravity in 1990s Cambodia. Highlights- live-in 12yo prostitutes, guns easily available to all, kids skipping school during political violence because they don't want to risk being split from their families again, 16 yo prostitute insisting that her bf pack an overnight bag during factional military fights in case the city is evacuated again, soldiers looting households, army generals raping prostitutes, 6 pm military curfews during factional military fights, weed so cheap it achieves "abundance" i.e. it's just there on the table for all to enjoy, lazy Sundays spent in the company of teenagers in a brothel.....

[Eran]

I'm not sure about having law and order being outsourced like that to a group that isn't the official police, it sounds as though they could take matters into their own hands quite easily.

How is that any worse than the current police force?

Clearly, private companies taking matters into their own hands is vastly superior to the police doing the same. For one thing, they enjoy no legal privilege, and can be resisted and even arrested if they go too far. Not so for official police...

Almost a de facto police force, considering the real police force are non-existent (and I mean this literally).

Actually, it sounds much better than most police forces.

[Husky]

Eran, I knew you would be interested. Might I add that about 4-5 big players dominate the market, and they almost never take matters into their own hands in an unjust way as they are respected and trustworthy. Unfortunately, some of the smaller protection agencies in more rural areas have a habit of illegally beating detainees.

[Eran]

I am very interested. The question of cost was always hard to pin-down. I usually start with the per-capita cost of government policing. That, however, is an overstatement of cost, both because of the monopoly nature of government, and because much of the cost is wasted on victimless crimes.

[Husky]

Regarding cost, I think these services have proven that such a service would be available very cheaply. Imagine if there were countless more competitors, what the prices would look like. I think these agencies also dispel certain other myths people have regarding a substitute for police forces.

[Oakwood]

How is that any worse than the current police force?

Clearly, private companies taking matters into their own hands is vastly superior to the police doing the same. For one thing, they enjoy no legal privilege, and can be resisted and even arrested if they go too far. Not so for official police...

Clearly it’s vastly superior? Well I don’t actually know the current situation of the South African Police. As for the private companies being resisted and arrested if they go too far, that’s why I asked the question of what has happened in the case of one of the contractors killing someone. The response Husky gave didn't tell me what had happened exactly, but his response implies that these people do carry out and get away with grotesque things. He also said some are regulated “on paper” then went on to describe them as being brutal and wrongfully detaining people. You say they can be arrested, but who are they going to be arrested by? The corrupt official police? So now you have two separate law enforcement groups operating in the same area, with different agendas and ideas. If the official police arrest the contractors who Huskey, the contractors and the population think are the true dispensers of justice from doing their job, soon enough they will be at odds with each other, especially if the contractors become skilled in what they do and believe they have what it takes to assert themselves over the official police.

One reason why I think this kind of corruption is best kept away from the contractors (who are ultimately civilians) is that this is an admittance that it’s acceptable for the general public to think they have the right carry out justice. There’s also the fact that you actually have to pay for this protection and that the more violent areas (which I assume are the poorer areas) are seemingly charged more for the protection when they likely can’t afford it as much.

I know the situation is tough though so having these contractors sounds essential. Instead of having two legal groups operating in the same area they could concentrate on reforming the police and government. But alternatively, if the police themselves aren’t doing the job of protecting the people and there’s no chance of reforming them, the people don’t have to abide by the law and respect the government/police. If it’s highly dangerous to live in these parts, it’s acceptable for you to fight for your own area of jurisdiction, secede and set up your own system which can be run like a proper state where justice and the rule of law actually mean something. This is only fair.

[SecretSquirrel]

Without private security agencies, the average woman in south africa would be raped every few months at least.

It is LITERALLY that bad there

[Eran]

Clearly it’s vastly superior?

Sure. I never suggested the situation is perfect, good or even acceptable. Merely that it is much better than what happens when the brutality originates from the official police force.

You might be helpless against a private agency. Or you might not be. But you are definitely, without a doubt, helpless against the official police.

One reason why I think this kind of corruption is best kept away from the contractors (who are ultimately civilians) is that this is an admittance that it’s acceptable for the general public to think they have the right carry out justice.

But it should be acceptable for the general public to have the right to carry out justice! It should be acceptable for anybody to carry out justice everywhere and always. However, this acceptability is much more urgent when the official police does not fulfil its responsibility to mitigate some of the worst kinds of misjustice.

What shouldn't be anybody's right (whether private or official) is to perform violent aggressive acts in the name of justice. Historically, official forces are much more likely to do that than private forces.

There’s also the fact that you actually have to pay for this protection and that the more violent areas (which I assume are the poorer areas) are seemingly charged more for the protection when they likely can’t afford it as much.

In a perfect world, none of us would have to pay for anything, including protection.

But isn't it much better that people can pay reasonable prices for getting excellent protection from private sources, than that they do without any protection?

And if we are to reform the police, we could go through the simpler task of reforming the police to the point that they control the excesses of the private forces, rather than over-ambitiously expect them to actually replace those private forces.

[Husky]

What's interesting to note is that people in poorer communities have done one of the following things in response to very high crime and very poor official police support.

a) hire private security agencies
b) form neighborhood watch groups
c) take matters directly into their own hands- mob justice

These are the only 3 options for safety. Option c is mostly prevalent in extremely poor communities e.g townships.

Option b is very common and is usually organized on a purely voluntary basis inside communities. There's usually a roster as to who patrols, and when crime is spotted, other members are alerted.

Then there's option a. Considering it is relatively cheap (people in poor communities would sacrifice many other things in order to purchase the protection service) and very reliable service, many poor people end up opting for this service.

As I said earlier, about 4-5 big players dominate the market, and they are very reliable, and often catch criminals through investigators while the police stand idle. They are better trained, friendlier and superior to the police in a whole host of other ways. The problem is that smaller, unknown protection agencies operate in rural areas and have a history of unjustly beating detainees and committing other similar atrocities.

[AFAIK]

Do you envision some communities seceding and forming city states?
Has this happened in other countries/ history?

[Husky]

Do you envision some communities seceding and forming city states?

Nope. What is very peculiar about S.A, is that despite governmental failures the overwhelming majority of people still support the ANC. This is because the ANC liberated them from the shackles of Apartheid. So despite shocking infrastructure, terrible health, under-supply of water, no electricity, and school classrooms packed with 70 kids, the ANC continue to dominate elections in these underprivileged areas.

Another distinct reason that the answer is no is these communities still depend on the government despite all these other additional governmental failures. These communities are dependent on government support largely; in the form of government grants.

More people are on welfare in S.A than people working. A shocking scenario. These people are not dependent and are not going to become independent with such a poor government in place.

What's most worrying is the dropping foreign investment, crumbling infrastructure, expansion of public health services (yes, I just said more people are on welfare than working!), and increased government corruption.

I think this quote sums up S.A's experience right now. The white minority (who are leaving in small numbers every year) are going to have to pay for all this damage, and more (much more). Governmental failures are blamed on Apartheid. This will be the excuse until the end of time.

A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on the support of Paul.

My prediction is that a schism will form within the ANC. One of the new parties formed will be a state-communist-endeavor (FUCKING worrying), and the other a more tame, heavily trade unionist-influenced party.

The ANC is officially involved in a Tripartite Alliance with the Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU) and the South African Communist Party (SACP).

Does that look worrying or what? These aren't the kinda communists that speak on these forums. These are USSR type communists.

[Oakwood]

Sure. I never suggested the situation is perfect, good or even acceptable. Merely that it is much better than what happens when the brutality originates from the official police force.

You might be helpless against a private agency. Or you might not be. But you are definitely, without a doubt, helpless against the official police.

When brutality originates from the official police force it’s actually easier to monitor, target and hold accountable than a myriad of organistations which aren't properly connected. And by the sounds of it, you actually are helpless against these contractors as the contractors have a lot of power in their hands and the official police sound as though they are the epitome of incompetence.

But it should be acceptable for the general public to have the right to carry out justice! It should be acceptable for anybody to carry out justice everywhere and always. However, this acceptability is much more urgent when the official police does not fulfil its responsibility to mitigate some of the worst kinds of misjustice.

I don’t disagree with you too much there when it comes to this particular circumstance and I’m with you on the fact that if me and you were in their position we’d resort to the contractors or even do what we had to ourselves.

If someone broke into your house with a gun then I think it’s acceptable to shoot them dead yourself without calling the police or contractors. Or even apprehend a criminal who has committed a theft or mugging or something similar in the street. But it’s when you perform the role of a guardian of an area, thinking that you have the right to judge whether someone in the street needs to be shot or doesn’t need to be shot, whether a crowd needs to be smashed to pieces or be allowed to protest or whether to allow the controlled selling of drugs in an open air market or not is when things become tricky. Basically, having the power to decide what is “just” and “unjust”.

What shouldn't be anybody's right (whether private or official) is to perform violent aggressive acts in the name of justice. Historically, official forces are much more likely to do that than private forces.

I don’t have much knowledge about this, but I have to say, whether it’s true or not, I heard private military contractors were the worst perpetrators of war crimes in Iraq because they enjoyed an immunity and lack of scrutiny that the regular army didn’t.

In a perfect world, none of us would have to pay for anything, including protection.

But isn't it much better that people can pay reasonable prices for getting excellent protection from private sources, than that they do without any protection?

Yes, I would do the same in their position.

And if we are to reform the police, we could go through the simpler task of reforming the police to the point that they control the excesses of the private forces, rather than over-ambitiously expect them to actually replace those private forces.

Expecting them to control the excesses of the private forces seems as though it’s not likely to happen if they’re already institutionally corrupt. If keeping an eye on the contractors was their main job, they wouldn’t even be the police anymore and the contractors would then take their place. Again, I think an animosity would arise if the official police were relegated like that.

Nope. What is very peculiar about S.A, is that despite governmental failures the overwhelming majority of people still support the ANC. This is because the ANC liberated them from the shackles of Apartheid. So despite shocking infrastructure, terrible health, under-supply of water, no electricity, and school classrooms packed with 70 kids, the ANC continue to dominate elections in these underprivileged areas.

With such disgraceful circumstances, do you not reckon a number of people would be willing to fight for some kid of autonomy at least? There’s no doubt this has happened before in other countries. I get the impression it would mostly be white people who would be part of these autonomous regions and there would be some kind of pressure from liberal western politicians for this to not happen- claiming it would be a new kind of apartheid. I’d actually want the likes of Britain and America to go and see what South Africa is dealing with before they start talking their apartheid shit, and if they care so much, maybe they could invest some money in reforming the country.

What's most worrying is the dropping foreign investment, crumbling infrastructure, expansion of public health services (yes, I just said more people are on welfare than working!), and increased government corruption.

True, when I read about South African growth these days it’s usually something to do with mineral resources or fruit rather than any kind of skill in business or manufacturing, but I don’t know enough to judge this one properly myself.

The white minority (who are leaving in small numbers every year) are going to have to pay for all this damage, and more (much more). Governmental failures are blamed on Apartheid. This will be the excuse until the end of time.

Apparently now a few black businessmen are complaining about the forced redundancy of white managers because they have been replaced with incompetent black ones who just don’t have the same skill level that the white ones had. This anti-white mentality is on the increase these days- in countless universities in America white and Asian people have to get higher scores in their exams than black or Latino ones to get in. Also, in Britain the case already is, that if you are non-white you’re put to the front of the queue when being recruited for the police force and now, there are discussions between the Metropolitan Police (London Police) and government about ensuring that for every white officer recruited, there has to be a non-white one, so effectively forcing a 50% cap on white recruitment.

[Husky]

With such disgraceful circumstances, do you not reckon a number of people would be willing to fight for some kid of autonomy at least? There’s no doubt this has happened before in other countries. I get the impression it would mostly be white people who would be part of these autonomous regions and there would be some kind of pressure from liberal western politicians for this to not happen- claiming it would be a new kind of apartheid.

I largely think that no civil wars or isolation of any areas will occur. 'white guilt' is quite high among whites; many whites are fine in paying for the country's (abysmal) welfare programs. You never see whites campaigning or complaining publicly; literally out of fear.

I’d actually want the likes of Britain and America to go and see what South Africa is dealing with before they start talking their apartheid shit, and if they care so much, maybe they could invest some money in reforming the country.

Apartheid has had a tricky aftermath to deal with. Of course, segregation policies are going to have effects on development for a long time. Such is the nature of a having a largely illiterate and unskilled labor force, who have been deprived of education, and the majority of the land the majority (blacks) inhabit has crumbling infrastructure.

The new "democratic" government could have chosen different paths though, no doubt. Any bad decisions are (unfortunately) blamed on Apartheid.

True, when I read about South African growth these days it’s usually something to do with mineral resources or fruit rather than any kind of skill in business or manufacturing, but I don’t know enough to judge this one properly myself.

Yeah. The economy depends on mineral exports. The Marikana massacre recently, as well as worker strikes in general, further added to S.A's instability complex and deterred foreign investment further. The rand fell ~20% against the dollar in about a month.

Apparently now a few black businessmen are complaining about the forced redundancy of white managers because they have been replaced with incompetent black ones who just don’t have the same skill level that the white ones had. This anti-white mentality is on the increase these days- in countless universities in America white and Asian people have to get higher scores in their exams than black or Latino ones to get in. Also, in Britain the case already is, that if you are non-white you’re put to the front of the queue when being recruited for the police force and now, there are discussions between the Metropolitan Police (London Police) and government about ensuring that for every white officer recruited, there has to be a non-white one, so effectively forcing a 50% cap on white recruitment.

Your first point is true. Also, many companies are headed by black men, who are effectively puppets. Behind the scenes the old, qualified white businessman run the show.

On the point of employment equity. Whites here have to practically finish in the top percentile to even be considered to be accepted into medical school. If you're black, you're granted privileges. But it's a tricky situation. As mentioned, uneven development is very tricky to solve due to its systemic nature.