The self/society continuum - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Classical liberalism. The individual before the state, non-interventionist, free-market based society.
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#14413890
anticlimacus wrote:What I describe is also in stark contrast to anarcho-capitalism. Certainly the two could not coexist in the same society.

Why couldn't they co-exist? What are you going to do to me?
anticlimacus wrote:I am also sympathetic to the Marxist view that socialism makes the most sense as a global phenomenon, the primary reason being for the fundamental need for expansion and growth under capitalism, posing a threat to any other socio-economic organization.

I don't understand, what concretely and in real terms do you imagine will happen that will be so terrible if people are allowed to trade and invest as they may without zombie socialists shooting them and robbing them of their goods? What is this threat exactly? Is it better value for money goods and services? Is that what you are afraid of? What are you going to do to stop people providing better value for money goods and services?
#14413921
Why couldn't they co-exist? What are you going to do to me?


An ancap society is a stateless system of market capitalism. My premise is built upon community owned and controlled capital with worker coops. It's market socialism not capitalism, so it is fundamentally distinct from ancap visions.

What do you mean, "what are you going to do to me"? What am I--or anybody--going to need to do to you? You drive a taxi, I believe--right? So drive your taxi.

I don't understand, what concretely and in real terms do you imagine will happen that will be so terrible if people are allowed to trade and invest as they may without zombie socialists shooting them and robbing them of their goods? What is this threat exactly? Is it better value for money goods and services? Is that what you are afraid of? What are you going to do to stop people providing better value for money goods and services?


Two ways of looking at what you are asking (correct me if I am wrong):

What's so bad about capitalism? On my view: class conflict, mass inequality, authoritarianism in the workplace and society, a model that increases exclusion rather than inclusion, and cancerous growth that creates cycles of boom and bust, and is potentially catastrophic (socially and environmentally). So this model transcends capitalism altogether. The two do no coexist.

What's going to stop you from being a capitalist in my model? Capital is controlled by publicly owned banks operating in conjunction with local communal boards and syndicates, and there is no money market.

Now if you have read closely to what I have written, I have not rejected market exchanges, investments, or even profit. I have rejected the private ownership of the means of production, profit off of labor, the centralized state, and money markets.
Last edited by anticlimacus on 28 May 2014 21:56, edited 3 times in total.
#14413985
anticlimacus wrote:An ancap society is a stateless system of market capitalism. My premise is built upon community owned and controlled capital with worker coops. It's market socialism not capitalism, so it is fundamentally distinct from ancap visions.

It may be distinct but that does not mean they cannot co-exist, so you haven't answered my first question. I repeat why couldn't they co-exist in the same way alcoholics and teetotalers co-exist yet are distinct, Catholics and Protestants co-exist yet are distinct, heterosexuals and homosexuals co-exist yet are distinct? Why are you so intolerant and totalitarian?
anticlimacus wrote:What do you mean, "what are you going to do to me?" What am I--or anybody--going to need to do to you? You drive a taxi, I believe--right? So drive your taxi.
Plying for hire and reward is capitalism, you are saying that's bad and I should stop. Are you going to put me in a cage like the pigs do to people that don't obey them?
anticlimacus wrote:Two ways of looking at what you are asking:

What's so bad about capitalism? On my view: class conflict, mass inequality, authoritarianism in the workplace and society, a model that increases exclusion rather than inclusion, and cancerous growth that creates cycles of boom and bust, and is potentially catastrophic (socially and environmentally). So this model transcends capitalism.
What you have described is feudalism. Capitalism, trade and investment by agreement is nothing like that. Your model may be better by some measures and poorer by some others, I don't know really, but if you think it is better why don't you show us and then let people join in if they see it is suitable for them and let them do something else if it isn't? How are going make people do something they don't want to do, especially if they are armed? Is your voodoo economics worth dying for?
anticlimacus wrote:What's going to stop you from being a capitalist in my model? Capital is controlled by publicly owned banks operating in conjunction with local communal boards and syndicates, and there is no money market.
Money is media of exchange, it can be anything real like gold, silver, boxes of detergent, cigarettes (prison!) or can be something imaginary like mutual credit, government paper money or even something virtual-real like bitcoin. You just can't blithely say there will be no money markets; if people have stuff they will exchange it for other stuff, money is stuff so it will be exchanged and that exchange will be a money market.
anticlimacus wrote:Now if you have read closely to what I have written, I have not rejected market exchanges, investments, or even profit. I have rejected the private ownership of the means of production, profit off of labor, the centralized state, and money markets.

This is too contradictory for words.
#14414000
It may be distinct but that does not mean they cannot co-exist, so you haven't answered my first question. I repeat why couldn't they co-exist in the same way alcoholics and teetotalers co-exist yet are distinct, Catholics and Protestants co-exist yet are distinct, heterosexuals and homosexuals co-exist yet are distinct? Why are you so intolerant and totalitarian?

The idea is to transcend capitalism, because it is viewed as socially problematic. This is necessary, as I mentioned, because the logic of capitalism is expansive--hence it always stands as a threat to other socio-economic systems. As for capitalism existing within socialism, that is the contradiction. What I am talking about is a socialist society. Capital is publicly owned, hence the means of production are socialized. Doesn't that kind of put a major damper on capitalism existing within socialism? You either have cancer or you don't.


Plying for hire and reward is capitalism, you are saying that's bad and I should stop. Are you going to put me in a cage like the pigs do to people that don't obey them?


Capitalism, as I understand it, is a socio-economic system that safeguards private property first and foremost as both a cornerstone of its legal apparatus and economic function. That is not what I am talking about.

I didn't say you couldn't hire anybody, anymore than any syndicate couldn't hire more workers. But if you are going to hire you are most likely going to have to offer some sort of ownership to your workers. Moreover, as you are using publicly owned resources (e.g. roads) you might also need to pay some sort of capital tax if you are starting up an industry on public property. You would more than likely need help from communal banks if you really seek to expand. Look, people don't work for free, even in a capitalist society. Sure maybe somebody would simply volunteer to work without pay forty hours a week--but that would be an anomaly and quite odd. Likewise, in a socialist society people don't work as non-owners.
What you have described is feudalism.

No I haven't. Feudalism is socio-political system based on hierarchical authority, tribute, and a mass of sedentary peasantry who work a particular manor in service of a particular lord or suzerain. Labor is controlled through political domination. Under capitalism labor becomes a commodity and is dominated by Capital itself, as labor is entirely alienated from it and serves its self-expansion.
How are going make people do something they don't want to do, especially if they are armed? Is your voodoo economics worth dying for?

I'm not sure where this question is coming from. You either have something in mind that I have not been talking about or you are arguing against some prefabricated straw man.
You just can't blithely say there will be no money markets

There is no money to be made on invested savings. There is no interest. Investment funds are generated by taxed capital assets of syndicates. The capital is controlled communally. There is no incentive for money markets. They are superfluous. Why inject the system with superfluidity?
This is too contradictory for words.

Where's the contradiction?
#14414086
anticlimacus wrote:The idea is to transcend capitalism, because it is viewed as socially problematic.

You transcend it if you like, I happen to like it.
anticlimacus wrote:This is necessary, as I mentioned, because the logic of capitalism is expansive--hence it always stands as a threat to other socio-economic systems. As for capitalism existing within socialism, that is the contradiction. What I am talking about is a socialist society. Capital is publicly owned, hence the means of production are socialized. Doesn't that kind of put a major damper on capitalism existing within socialism? You either have cancer or you don't.
From the sound of it socialism is expansive and could be even more squarely called a threat to other ways of living. I said co-exist not "exist within". Like it or lump capitalism will exist everywhere people trade the stuff they claim to own. If your goons are putting people in cages for owning stuff and trading it then they will do it furtively instead of openly but they will always do it. How far do you want to take your fantasy? If people are broadly disarmed and your gang are numerous, aggressive and have a monopoly on weapons you might be able to take it really far but all you will do is create an enormous black market and defacto a totalitarian state even if it isn't a centralised one. Have your socialist society and I'll have my society of freemen, don't fuck with us and we won't fuck with you, is it a deal? Socialism is brain cancer.
anticlimacus wrote:
Capitalism, as I understand it, is a socio-economic system that safeguards private property first and foremost as both a cornerstone of its legal apparatus and economic function. That is not what I am talking about.

Well defined property rights are important when doing business with strangers. A complex economy with lots of specialisation practically requires doing business with strangers most of the time. This laptop that I am writing on now is the product of thousands and thousands of different people from many countries who are strangers to me and to each other mostly, we all could not have co-operated so well together to create and distribute this complex machine without being pretty clear on each interaction exactly who owns and owes what. Trade and investment in a large ad-hoc peer-to-peer network of strangers requires well defined property rights to function but the point is help yourself by helping others not just owning stuff as a fetish.
anticlimacus wrote:
I didn't say you couldn't hire anybody, anymore than any syndicate couldn't hire more workers. But if you are going to hire you are most likely going to have to offer some sort of ownership to your workers.

I have never heard of anyone hiring a worker and not offering some sort of ownership in return, what else are wages? The hirer owns some money, offers to transfer ownership of some of it to the worker in return for doing something useful. Its socialism that expects people to work without getting ownership.
Capitalism is work (boo!) rewarded with ownership of money (yay!).
Socialism is work (boo!) rewarded with .. ahem.. umm.. uh.. guess I'll just do nothing then until I get hungry then I'll just rob... ahem I mean tax someone.
anticlimacus wrote:
Moreover, as you are using publicly owned resources (e.g. roads) you might also need to pay some sort of capital tax if you are starting up an industry on public property.
Well roads could easily become something contested if your people are going to use your pretended hegemony over all of them as an excuse to extort unreasonable amounts of.. hang on what?? money?? I thought you didn't want that stuff??? Capital tax?? So you are a feudalist / statist??
anticlimacus wrote:
You would more than likely need help from communal banks if you really seek to expand.

That depends on what kind of a deal they offered, if it was a bag of shit kind of deal then I'll go to a private bank.
anticlimacus wrote:
Look, people don't work for free, even in a capitalist society. Sure maybe somebody would simply volunteer to work without pay forty hours a week--but that would be an anomaly and quite odd. Likewise, in a socialist society people don't work as non-owners.
But own what? Let's say I'm a student and for the summer I want to earn a bit of cash for to buy some skunk and whatnot. I look around for some paying work and find out a wild eyed entrepreneur has just started a mini amusement arcade down on the seafront. I mosey on down and say "hey daddyo you need some help cos I need some dough." He says "Sure its just me running things now and I'm having to work over hundred hours a week and really need a bit of a rest." I say "Great! How much you payin'?". He says "well I would offer you x per hour but the socialists have been round and they say I can't offer people money to work I have to give them a share of the ownership of the business or they'll shoot me. That's why all the workers took off and left me by myself". I say "Cool so I get a share off all this stuff?" He says "Well I paid over 1 million for all this stuff so I guess you could have a half share of it for 500,000." I says "Whoa, I came here to earn money not to pay money! see ya later alligator" He says "wait wait don't go, look I really need a rest, I'll need 500,000 for a 50% share but if the business works out you get a half share of the profits! And I guess I could let you pay the 500,000 in installments out of your share of the revenue even though that isn't really fair on me because I put the whole lot up front". I says "hmm you've piqued my interest, but you said 'if' the business works out, what happens if it don't?". He says "Well any business can fail, if the customers walk, that's it game over. Probably the worst that could happen is I.. I mean we.. lose our investment money and have debts on top of that.". I says "Bummer. So let's say it does work out, how much dough do I get?". He says "Well its hard to say, custom, prices, costs all will vary over time and there is only so much you can really guestimate about the future.. I figure ROI is probably achievable within 5 years if all goes well...". I says "ROI what?". He says "ROI, Return On Investment. Its the time when the business has earned more money than it has cost to make, after that its profit time". I says "hold up daddyo, you sayin' I gotsta work for free for 5 years before maybe I get some money or maybe I get some debt???" He says "hey that's business, its the same for me, worse even as I already threw down a mil and you have't risked a penny yet. But look, it could be, even very likely will be, quite a lot of money you will be earning after ROI, probably way better than x per hour I'd have given you if weren't for those socialists." I says "Sorry man, no deal, I'm off college just for summer and I want a little blow money now not pie in the sky fortunes years from now. I'm outta here!"....
anticlimacus wrote:
No I haven't. Feudalism is socio-political system based on hierarchical authority, tribute, and a mass of sedentary peasantry who work a particular manor in service of a particular lord or suzerain. Labor is controlled through political domination. Under capitalism labor becomes a commodity and is dominated by Capital itself, as labor is entirely alienated from it and serves its self-expansion.

Labour is what people sell for money, to get capital, they want to be alienated from their labour because they want to own money more than they want to be idle.
How are going make people do something they don't want to do, especially if they are armed? Is your voodoo economics worth dying for?

anticlimacus wrote:
There is no money to be made on invested savings. There is no interest. Investment funds are generated by taxed capital assets of syndicates. The capital is controlled communally. There is no incentive for money markets. They are superfluous. Why inject the system with superfluidity?
Not everyone will be in your wonky system.
#14414361
anticlimacus wrote:It does not take much of a stretch of the imagination to understand that in contemporary capitalism most of the world's wealth is owned by a small few, while the the income of workers declines and indebtedness rises.

It does take some imagination to suggest that today's wealth distribution is due entirely to the operation of free markets. Scanning the list of the world's wealthiest brings up many who have made their money through one or other forms of cronyism.

However, taking in the big picture, it is equally obvious that contemporary capitalism, rather than causing a decline in the income of workers, have actually caused their incomes to multiply many-fold.

It also does not take much of a stretch of the imagination to understand that the financialization of the economy is dominated by huge transnational firms, and finance has an even bigger disparity of inequality between the rich and everybody else than income.

I share your criticism of the global financial system. I associate it strongly with government intervention and regulation. Barriers to entry make competition in the provision of legitimate financial services very difficult, although a recent wave of web-based solutions point in the direction the market could be taking to overcome (at least in part) the problem. Unless, of course, it is stopped by government.

Even in advanced capitalist economies, the average working citizen is not a player in the capitalist economy, but mostly just trying to create savings for retirement.

I'm not sure what you have in mind by "player". Obviously, and under any system of organisation, the average person cannot have more than an average (i.e. one in millions) impact on the overall working of society. Nor should the average person care.

What matters for the average person (i.e. a person not inclined to grab power over others) is how much of a "player" he is in his own life. And the free market system provides today's working with unprecedented freedom and ability to be major players ("authors" is the term often used) in their own lives. Never in history have people had more choice in how they run their lives. From choice of career and place to live (although immigration controls are still problematic), to more day-to-day choices on housing, clothing, food consumption, social environment, etc.

These are operative as public investments through the mentioned community owned banks in conversation with community boards and syndicates, based on need and availability. Funds derive from taxes on capital assets of industry.

Here (and I think elsewhere) you continue to make much reference to "capital". That is certainly in keeping with both Marxism obsessions in their 21st incarnation

However, capital is actually becoming less, not more important, as we gradually shift from industrial to service and knowledge economies. You don't need significant capital to start a software company, a web-based or personal service. How is the community going to tax a software company using cheap laptop computers? How about doctors, barbers, plumbers or lawyers? And without taxing them, how will you fund the deep and broad set of social services you envision?

Again, community boards, public banks, and syndicates enter into dialogue about how this functions, what goes where, who gets what, etc. Local stores would decide what drugs they buy and sell. Communities would decide on what they would teach--ideally, this would be coordinated with some sort of interregional standard. Grocery stores would decide what products they buy and sell.

Ok. Two grocery stores make different choices on products. One does it well, making large profits. The otherwise doesn't, losing its investment. The successful grocer pays back the loan he received from the community bank, and now owns his store outright (can he do that?). The unsuccessful grocer defaults. Is there a financial reward for the successful grocer? A penalty for the unsuccessful one?

Is payment for free medical services coming only from revenue raised by the local community? Or do wealthier communities contribute towards the cost of less well-of communities? If so, why? Out of the goodness of their hearts?

Capital funds are owned by the community. Positive consequences are always the wellbeing of a particular industry and its workers--although growth is not quite the same as in the capitalist counterpart. In this model, firms do not profit off of labor, so expanding means paying more workers that partake in additional profits. Growth occurs, but is not an end in itself and is nothing like in contemporary capitalism. There is also no market for private investment eliminating excessive finincialization.

I'm a little confused. Sometimes, it seems like your model society is very similar to anarcho-capitalism, with the only difference being that the economic units (owners, decision-makers) aren't individuals, but rather groups (syndicates, communities). Let's test that model.

Imagine a community within which a very successful syndicate operates. The syndicate is able to sell products to other communities and syndicates at prices that far exceed the cost of inputs. The syndicate accumulates a lot of money.

(1) Can the syndicate/community reward its members with dividends, such that they can each take a fancy vacation to Bora Bora?
(2) Is the syndicate/community going to be (a) expected, or (b) forced to pay some of its profits to other, less successful syndicates/communities?
(3) As people hear of the successful syndicate/community, many flock and ask for employment/residence. Is the syndicate/community going to be forced to accept new members, or can they decide whom to accept?
(4) Do new members immediately become equal members of the syndicate/community?

It would be like suggesting that everybody in Mondragon all the sudden decides to abandon their rights as partial owners without any say in their working conditions.

No, it wouldn't. We are not talking about abandoning rights or privileges you already have. We are talking about accepting an offer that, overall and in your judgement, makes you better off. Before reaching the agreement, the prospective workers have no rights vis-a-vis the entrepreneur. Even in your world, prospective workers have no right to demand employment with a syndicate.

The agreement, thus, wouldn't deprive workers of anything. It would offer them an opportunity that they wouldn't otherwise have. Why is it unlikely that an offer by an entrepreneur could be tempting without including full and equal voting rights? Especially when the workers know that if the relationship doesn't work out to their satisfaction, they can leave and take employment with the syndicate?

What I describe is also in stark contrast to anarcho-capitalism. Certainly the two could not coexist in the same society.

I honestly don't see why not. You already have your syndicates trading with each other in a market system. Why couldn't some members of society belong to syndicate and communities, while others work for wages, and have syndicates trade with corporations? Anybody who prefers your vision would live in a community and work for a syndicate. But if somebody prefers the individualism of capitalism, they would be free to do so too. What's wrong with this picture?

You see, I can understand Socialist concerns over the power of capital owners if those monopolise the means of production. If that were the case, workers indeed would have no other options, and would be subject to exploitation. But when choice is available through myriad syndicates and communities, the power of non-monopoly capital owners to exploit their workers disappears.
#14414442
Eran wrote:It does take some imagination to suggest that today's wealth distribution is due entirely to the operation of free markets. Scanning the list of the world's wealthiest brings up many who have made their money through one or other forms of cronyism.

However, taking in the big picture, it is equally obvious that contemporary capitalism, rather than causing a decline in the income of workers, have actually caused their incomes to multiply many-fold.


I didn't say it was the result of free markets. I said it is the current state of capitalism--or global capitalism which can be analyzed in Marxist terms.

What matters for the average person (i.e. a person not inclined to grab power over others) is how much of a "player" he is in his own life. And the free market system provides today's working with unprecedented freedom and ability to be major players ("authors" is the term often used) in their own lives. Never in history have people had more choice in how they run their lives. From choice of career and place to live (although immigration controls are still problematic), to more day-to-day choices on housing, clothing, food consumption, social environment, etc.


From your point of view capitalism is the pinnacle of economic production. I understand that. Everything you said here--with the exception of what the average person desires--is pretty much controversial and a matter of ideological conviction. For instance, it is true that certain people in certain places have more choice (even choices to waste) while at the same time masses of people have little to no choices at all, and live on next to nothing. Moreover, having more choices is not necessarily a good thing in and of itself. It can lead to excessive burden and stress and increase the chances of failure and collapse. There is a difference then between having self-empowering choices and opportunities, and having to make choices year in and year out or month in and month out that could make or break your wellbeing. Sociologist Ulrich Beck has thus analyzed this as a "risk society"--it is not so much choices that have increased, but risk both on the personal and social level. At any rate, the point is that the "good" of what you are pointing out is not in the least self-evident.
However, capital is actually becoming less, not more important, as we gradually shift from industrial to service and knowledge economies. You don't need significant capital to start a software company, a web-based or personal service. How is the community going to tax a software company using cheap laptop computers? How about doctors, barbers, plumbers or lawyers? And without taxing them, how will you fund the deep and broad set of social services you envision?

I think you are significantly underestimating the importance of capital. First of all "we" (whoever that is) are not shifting from industrial service to knowledge economies. At the bottom line people need things and stuff. That comes from somewhere--just because much of that industrial production has shifted to where cheaper labor can be found does not make it any less important or real. I've never tried to start up a software company, but I'm sure it does require a significant amount of capital (more than what the average person has in his/her private savings) in order to invest in equipment, workers, land, training, etc. What I'm suggesting is that the capital required (however large or small) to begin these kinds of things comes from a community pocket. That doesn't seem too unrealistic. What would be the difference with doctors, barbers, plumbers etc. except for the fact that some of things might be non-profit in the first place (such as healthcare)? Could some operations be very small? Sure. Could some be self-employed? Sure. Are some going to be very large? Yes. I'm failing to see where the difficulty is in having community owned banks, accountable to their own communities, that control this capital any more than we have private banks today that control capital.
Ok. Two grocery stores make different choices on products. One does it well, making large profits. The otherwise doesn't, losing its investment. The successful grocer pays back the loan he received from the community bank, and now owns his store outright (can he do that?). The unsuccessful grocer defaults. Is there a financial reward for the successful grocer? A penalty for the unsuccessful one?

Some businesses are going to fail some are going to thrive. Those that thrive gain the reward of making its profits and continuing its business. Those that fail suffer the consequence of failed business: there is no profit, new work needs to be found.
Is payment for free medical services coming only from revenue raised by the local community? Or do wealthier communities contribute towards the cost of less well-of communities? If so, why? Out of the goodness of their hearts?

This would be public investment, and I think, ideally, this would have some inter-regional standard. There are certain things, like healthcare, education, food and shelter, that would have more of a likelihood for all to accept as a basic need. So many of these could be networked and shared inter-regionally. In other words there could be a common pool for various regions to invest in these things and then supply funds based on need.
I'm a little confused. Sometimes, it seems like your model society is very similar to anarcho-capitalism, with the only difference being that the economic units (owners, decision-makers) aren't individuals, but rather groups (syndicates, communities). Let's test that model.

The fact that there are markets is what seems to be confusing you. Quite unlike the core of anarcho-capitalism, capital, the means of production, is socialized. The use of it is determined by publicly controlled institutions, such as community owned banks. Workplaces control their own production, and as you suggest are modeled after syndicates. Syndicates are federated as are community banks and boards.
(1) Can the syndicate/community reward its members with dividends, such that they can each take a fancy vacation to Bora Bora?
(2) Is the syndicate/community going to be (a) expected, or (b) forced to pay some of its profits to other, less successful syndicates/communities?
(3) As people hear of the successful syndicate/community, many flock and ask for employment/residence. Is the syndicate/community going to be forced to accept new members, or can they decide whom to accept?
(4) Do new members immediately become equal members of the syndicate/community?

Again, workplaces can reward workers however its members decide, with the caveat that they do not own the stock of the company. This would be voted on by the workers themselves. Capital is communally owned, the workplaces are controlled by the workers themselves. They make money off of the products they sell and that gets counted as their income with an ongoing tax on capital assets as the company continues. They hire as they see fit, expand and downsize as they deem it necessary. The structure of the workplace depends on the workers themselves, they are free to operate as they see fit.
We are not talking about abandoning rights or privileges you already have. We are talking about accepting an offer that, overall and in your judgement, makes you better off. Before reaching the agreement, the prospective workers have no rights vis-a-vis the entrepreneur. Even in your world, prospective workers have no right to demand employment with a syndicate.

The agreement, thus, wouldn't deprive workers of anything. It would offer them an opportunity that they wouldn't otherwise have. Why is it unlikely that an offer by an entrepreneur could be tempting without including full and equal voting rights? Especially when the workers know that if the relationship doesn't work out to their satisfaction, they can leave and take employment with the syndicate?

But you're assuming that moving to wage labor makes one better off--so instead of being able to make decisions about my working conditions (including pay!), I simply surrender all that power (which directly affects me!) to somebody else.
You have to keep in mind that the whole economic structure is altered. In my view the wage structure in capitalism does not create all the "free choice" you seem to envision. It is predicated on the systemic separation of labor from capital. This creates a pool of labor that can be exploited. Labor enters into a continuous inevitable cycle of conflict with capitalists, or those who seek to profit off them by controlling capital. Employment is not a right, but comes with the threat of unemployment. In other words, in this conflict capital is used against labor to get labor to do what it wants: e.g. If you don't take smaller wages, I'll move all my capital to a place that will! This all originates from alienation of labor from capital. Or, if you prefer, because of the private ownership of capital. My model ends this. Labor is no longer alienated from capital. What you are suggesting is basically structurally precluded: the wage system (it is a system, not an isolated event)--the selling and buying of labor by private owners of capital--no longer exists. Whatever scenario you are talking about, in my model labor is not alienated from capital.
I honestly don't see why not.

I hope I've cleared much of this up.
#14414842
I didn't say it was the result of free markets. I said it is the current state of capitalism--or global capitalism which can be analyzed in Marxist terms.

Fair enough. But as neither one of us advocates continuation of the current state of capitalism, and neither one of us believes that current global markets are essentially free, who cares?

For instance, it is true that certain people in certain places have more choice (even choices to waste) while at the same time masses of people have little to no choices at all, and live on next to nothing.

Come on. Some people are still poor under (current) capitalism. But fewer people today are poor than at any time in human history. And the global economy is clearly lifting millions more out of poverty every year. Pockets of sustained poverty only exist where predatory or unstable governments do.

To blame capitalism for not solving all the world's economic problems (yet), when it did better than any other system, better than anybody could possibly expect, makes not sense to me.

There is a difference then between having self-empowering choices and opportunities, and having to make choices year in and year out or month in and month out that could make or break your wellbeing.

Free markets are excellent at satisfying consumer preferences. And when consumers prefer less choice and more simplicity, market producers can offer that as well.

The bottom line is that we have no standard of judging what is "good" for people beyond those same people's own preferences. And capitalism (or free markets) are the best system for satisfying those preferences. Whether those preferences are for wide consumption choices or more social involvement, for satisfying employment or for relaxed and unstressed working life, for privacy or for community, the free market is the best tool to give people what they want.

First of all "we" (whoever that is) are not shifting from industrial service to knowledge economies.

By "we" I meant the global economy.

At the bottom line people need things and stuff. That comes from somewhere--just because much of that industrial production has shifted to where cheaper labor can be found does not make it any less important or real.

At the bottom line, people need to eat. Yet the fraction of agriculture in the overall (global) economy has declined dramatically. True - people need other physical goods. And just as there is always going to be an agricultural sector, there will also always be an industrial sector. But in relative importance, it is shrinking and will continue to shrink.

What would be the difference with doctors, barbers, plumbers etc. except for the fact that some of things might be non-profit in the first place (such as healthcare)?

The difference is that these people produce economic value while relying on very little capital. If your community's income required to fund rich social services is based on a tax on capital, your "tax base" can be quite narrow.

I'm failing to see where the difficulty is in having community owned banks, accountable to their own communities, that control this capital any more than we have private banks today that control capital.

The difficulty is in your statement (as I understood it) that community activities will be funded by taxing capital. But perhaps I am too narrow. Perhaps you would also have the community impose an income tax?

The fact that there are markets is what seems to be confusing you. Quite unlike the core of anarcho-capitalism, capital, the means of production, is socialized. The use of it is determined by publicly controlled institutions, such as community owned banks. Workplaces control their own production, and as you suggest are modelled after syndicates. Syndicates are federated as are community banks and boards.

Imagine a self-contained community/syndicate. To make things simple, assume that the two overlap. The community bank funded the syndicate, in which all members of the community work. The community "owns" the capital assets, and fully controls production and investment choices, right?

The syndicate interacts with non-community organs (other communities, syndicates or perhaps individuals or foreign countries) through market mechanisms. There may be coordination with other communities/syndicates, but those are exclusively voluntary. Am I right?

So here is my point. Your society is exactly equivalent to an anarcho-capitalist society, if we only replace your communities/syndicate with ancap's individuals. And vice-versa. In an ancap society, individuals own their own capital, make production decisions regarding themselves and their property, and interact with other individuals or firms through the market process. They coordinate, collaborate and work together with other individuals, but on an entirely voluntary basis.

In your society (if I understand it correctly), communities/syndicates own their own capital, make production decisions regarding themselves and their property, and interact with other communities/syndicates through the market process. They coordinate, collaborate and work together with other communities/syndicates, but on an entirely voluntary basis.

Is this fair?

But you're assuming that moving to wage labor makes one better off--so instead of being able to make decisions about my working conditions (including pay!), I simply surrender all that power (which directly affects me!) to somebody else.

I am not making any categorical assumptions. Rather, I am suggesting that it is conceivable that in particular circumstances, that would make sense. Remember, decisions are made by individuals, not collectives. I, Eran, am working for a syndicate. I have one vote in 1,000 on working conditions (including pay). I don't feel like a free and independent person. Now I am offered an option to work as an employee. True, I don't get my one-vote-in-1000. But my employer is a nice guy. His other employees seem happy and content. The pay is higher, the work more interesting and rewarding, and the working conditions more pleasant than in my syndicate. Why is that unlikely? It happens all the time. It is actually the story of my career to date.

You have to keep in mind that the whole economic structure is altered.

Why are you thinking of this as an all-or-nothing proposition? Why not imagine a society in which most people work for syndicates, while a minority is working as wage earners?

It is predicated on the systemic separation of labor from capital.

Is that exactly what you mean? Or do you mean labour from management? Or labour from equity ownership?

In the classic Marxist model, the three elements - capital, equity ownership and management were identified in the single person of the Capitalist. But today, a much more common model is one in which the three are quite distinct. You could have capital coming through a bank loan, equity ownership in the hands of a private equity firm, while management is in the hands of a hired CEO.

This creates a pool of labor that can be exploited

At most, you could argue that labour can be exploited if they have no viable alternatives but to work for wages. But in a mixed economy, with plenty of syndicates available as options to those who prefer them, how can capitalists/employers exploit workers?

Employment is not a right, but comes with the threat of unemployment.

Is that not true in your world? Earlier I thought we agreed that a syndicate cannot be forced (by whom?) to take on new employees. We also agreed that a failed enterprise (one that loses money) would have to be closed, and the workers would have to find new employment. But if that is the case, how is employment going to be guaranteed?

And while employment is not a right, but comes with the threat of unemployment (which is true), the same holds for profits. Profits aren't a right. Being a capitalist comes with the threat of loses or even bankruptcy. We live in an inherently uncertain and risky world. Nobody's income stream - worker, capitalist, syndicate - is guaranteed.

In other words, in this conflict capital is used against labor to get labor to do what it wants: e.g. If you don't take smaller wages, I'll move all my capital to a place that will!

Indeed. But no more so than labour can get cpaital to do what it wants: e.g. If you don't give me higher wages, I'll more my labour to an employer that will!

The natural interaction between employers and employees isn't conflictual - it is cooperative. Both sides come together and agree on a setup that both consider mutually beneficial. Sure - conflicts can arise. But to see conflict as the "natural" state of affairs is distorting. IT is like suggesting that strife and anger is the natural state of marriage, as husband and wife are in an inevitable conflict over who would do the dishes. Or that conflict is the natural nature of relation between buyers and sellers, as they argue over price and quality.

Whenever humans interact, there is potential for conflict. Not least of all in a syndicate or a community, in which decisions impact all involved. Again, the Kibbutz movement in Israel provides ample examples of arguing, fighting which in some cases saw a Kibbutz split in two.

But as long as the nature of the relationship is voluntary, the normal interaction is agreeable, amicable and mutually beneficial. Again, that very much agrees with my experience as a wage slave, and that of everybody around me (including my children, who work for minimum wage, btw.)
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Eran wrote:But as neither one of us advocates continuation of the current state of capitalism, and neither one of us believes that current global markets are essentially free, who cares?


I think we both do. First of all I reject capitalism in total. So regardless of what phase it is, I care about addressing its problems and overcoming the system. Second, while you are more of absolute free-market idealist, you still believe that capitalism (even in its current phase), which has never reached your pure ideal, has been a great benefit to the world. We may both agree on some of the current problems of current capitalism. But we fundamentally disagree on the goodness of capitalism as a whole--that is why it matters.

Come on. Some people are still poor under (current) capitalism. But fewer people today are poor than at any time in human history. And the global economy is clearly lifting millions more out of poverty every year. Pockets of sustained poverty only exist where predatory or unstable governments do.

To blame capitalism for not solving all the world's economic problems (yet), when it did better than any other system, better than anybody could possibly expect, makes not sense to me.

I'm not sure how you are making your measurements here. I would certainly not question that there are parts of the world that have as a whole seen an increase in standard of living. However, this is due to a variety of reasons not all the results of markets: state intervention, better medicine and technology. But other parts of the world have seen quite the opposite, and it is not at all clear that the endemic and atrocious problem of global poverty has nothing to do with capitalism. Furthermore, under the model of capitalism we also see a large increase in socio-economic injustice: the whole world could be fed, housed, educated, and provided with some basic healthcare and yet more than half live on next to nothing. One could certainly take that the problem of mass inequality that capitalism often produces is part and parcel to the very unique kind of global inequality we have seen develop over the past century.

Agreed--this is not medieval Europe. But it is not self-evident that the global economy is doing what you say it is--or even that when some are lifted out of poverty we should be praising markets for that anymore than you would permit me blaming capitalism for some of the worst atrocities in human history which have occurred in the 20th century (how many genocides?). The only thing clear here is your bias of interpretation.

Free markets are excellent at satisfying consumer preferences. And when consumers prefer less choice and more simplicity, market producers can offer that as well.

Ideally, the consumer reigns supreme. However, this is only somewhat true on the surface. Considered in depth this is quite a superficial claim. To a certain extent, I'll grant that capitalism offers an increase in choices. But not necessarily good choices or choices that optimize chances of success or that even add to the wellbeing of individual or social life. Moreover, we also have to consider the fact that capitalism stimulates demand excessively, which shows that wants can be manipulated and controlled--and often are. So we might also add that if "the consumer reigns supreme" capitalism also inflates the need for consumption. Why not have the capacity to work less and have more leisure and consume less? This latter option is more often than not, not really a potential choice for most people--although something they might actually want.
At the bottom line, people need to eat. Yet the fraction of agriculture in the overall (global) economy has declined dramatically. True - people need other physical goods. And just as there is always going to be an agricultural sector, there will also always be an industrial sector. But in relative importance, it is shrinking and will continue to shrink.

This is an empirical question. There may be an increase in industry like agribusiness which transforms the need for mass agriculture, but that does not change the fact that labor is still hired, for instance, in service sectors. The essential point here is that regardless of the structure of the economy, labor always remains a necessary source of profit within capitalism. Labor is always seeking permission from those who control capital to find a source of subsistence. And those who control capital are always seeking to exploit that need and make a profit off of it.
The difference is that these people produce economic value while relying on very little capital. If your community's income required to fund rich social services is based on a tax on capital, your "tax base" can be quite narrow.

I think your overestimating the impact of small producers. We live in a world of corporate giants. I'm not suggesting that a socialist world would have such massive international organizations of business, but there is much wealth to be gained from those kinds of institutions. I also think this is more difficult to imagine under a capitalist model where taxing the capitalist class alone would be more problematic. However if the means of production are communally owned in the first place, I think this greatly changes things.
So here is my point. Your society is exactly equivalent to an anarcho-capitalist society, if we only replace your communities/syndicate with ancap's individuals. And vice-versa. In an ancap society, individuals own their own capital, make production decisions regarding themselves and their property, and interact with other individuals or firms through the market process. They coordinate, collaborate and work together with other individuals, but on an entirely voluntary basis.

Under state socialism the state owns means of production and does with it what it wills--but you would not equate that to anarcho-capitalism. I mean, to a certain extent you are correct. There are voluntary interactions on the market. However, a socialist model would not view the market as an end in itself. For instance, there might be certain standards of production that come with accessing the capital owned by the community. Moreover, there are certain things guaranteed by the community (employment, food, shelter, healthcare, education) due to the social ownership of the means of production--after all, no single individual has a right to withhold the benefits of communally owned capital from others, so there are naturally things that we should all share in common. Essentially, it seems to me that the socialization of the means of production really is the key difference here.

This is not a system where private owners of capital do what they want and the market decides the fate of the world. Quite the contrary, because capital is socialized there can be some planning and the needs of the community trumps the principle of market laissez-faire.

To be clear, there is no single centralized state. But communities and syndicates are federated and coordinate needs together. The free-wheeling market is not the final arbiter.
Remember, decisions are made by individuals, not collectives. I, Eran, am working for a syndicate. I have one vote in 1,000 on working conditions (including pay). I don't feel like a free and independent person. Now I am offered an option to work as an employee. True, I don't get my one-vote-in-1000. But my employer is a nice guy. His other employees seem happy and content. The pay is higher, the work more interesting and rewarding, and the working conditions more pleasant than in my syndicate. Why is that unlikely? It happens all the time. It is actually the story of my career to date.

Well that would be just it: employment would have to be pretty damn good! However, what I am arguing--or at least part of my views on how capitalism actually works--is that the "choices" are not presented like this in capitalism. Wage work more often than not becomes onerous and a result of not having any say over the means of production (something which entirely transforms my society). So, under capitalism, it is simply not usually the case that owners of capital are trying to entice workers to move from one firm to theirs (maybe more so in the professional world, but not always). Rather employers are often hiring the unemployed and those desperate for work. So the happy circumstance of going to work for somebody where everybody makes good money and works under a good employer is simply fantasy at the highest extreme! This play between employment and unemployment is, as I see it, one of the core dynamics of capitalism which is a product of the essential conflict between alienated labor and capital. Your description above really isn't taking this into account, and it's rather central.
Why are you thinking of this as an all-or-nothing proposition?

Because under my model labor is simply no longer alienated from capital. Capital is socialized. As far as I understand it, that is not capitalism but socialism. And I think, or at least hope, that what I stated above makes that a bit clearer.
Is that exactly what you mean? Or do you mean labour from management? Or labour from equity ownership?

In the classic Marxist model, the three elements - capital, equity ownership and management were identified in the single person of the Capitalist. But today, a much more common model is one in which the three are quite distinct. You could have capital coming through a bank loan, equity ownership in the hands of a private equity firm, while management is in the hands of a hired CEO.

In the classic Marxist model those three elements are not identified as you say. Marx had a very complex view of capitalism: there are workers, peasants, owners of capital, managers, credit and financial systems, "petite bourgeois," etc. All the diversity within capitalism (and there is a lot) functions around the basic separation of capital from labor for the production of surplus value, or profit which in turn is put in service to the increase of capital. I hold this Marxist view.
Is that not true in your world? Earlier I thought we agreed that a syndicate cannot be forced (by whom?) to take on new employees. We also agreed that a failed enterprise (one that loses money) would have to be closed, and the workers would have to find new employment. But if that is the case, how is employment going to be guaranteed?

Remember I also stated a commitment to full employment. You are right that syndicates would not have to hire and could release employees. But I also am not committed to a complete laissez-faire economy. Communities could also supply jobs, and where necessary multiple communities could come together to supply jobs where needed.
Indeed. But no more so than labour can get cpaital to do what it wants: e.g. If you don't give me higher wages, I'll more my labour to an employer that will!

Clearly, it should be evident I don't agree with this. There is no equal bargaining power between capital and labor under capitalism. Capital always has the distinct advantage, and always has. Labor has to struggle to unite in order to combat the front of mobile, concentrated capital, wielded but an increasingly smaller group who controls it. Neither is this cooperative, as you seem to suggest--the history of capitalism has not been cooperation between labor and capital, and I think the world's labor movements bring the falsity of that claim out.
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Why not have the capacity to work less and have more leisure and consume less?

People do have that capacity. The vast majority choose to work 40-50 hours a week, rather than work less and earn less. But nothing in capitalism or free markets prejudices people's choice.

Labor is always seeking permission from those who control capital to find a source of subsistence.

No more so than "capital" is always begging labor to come and work for it.

The relation between labour and capital is much more symmetric and amicable than you continue to present.

Sure, in my world, and subject to contractual arrangements to the contrary, workers can be fired at will. But in my world as well as this, workers can quit at will.

Workers need employment to survive, but businesses need workers as well. And while workers have self-employment or co-op employment alternatives, businesses rarely have alternatives but to hire workers.

And those who control capital are always seeking to exploit that need and make a profit off of it.

Just as those who control labour (i.e. each person controlling his own labour) are always seeking to exploit the need of businesses to their labour, and earn money off them.

To be clear, there is no single centralized state. But communities and syndicates are federated and coordinate needs together. The free-wheeling market is not the final arbiter.

Would highly successful communities contribute money/resources to less successful communities? If so, would they be forced to do so (by whom?) or do so of their own free will?

If it is the former, wouldn't an organisation that forces communities to "share" be akin to a government?

IF it is the latter, why do you assume that individual communities will be charitable towards each other, but individual individuals won't be?

So, under capitalism, it is simply not usually the case that owners of capital are trying to entice workers to move from one firm to theirs (maybe more so in the professional world, but not always).

That, as you wrote earlier, is an empirical question. However, the point is that the relationship between capital owners and workers is not necessarily exploitative, unpleasant, adversarial, or is otherwise against the interest of the workers.

With that in mind, I wonder again why you categorically reject wage labour, as opposed to merely calling for it to be improved?

This play between employment and unemployment is, as I see it, one of the core dynamics of capitalism which is a product of the essential conflict between alienated labor and capital. Your description above really isn't taking this into account, and it's rather central.

Unemployment figures vary a lot. Amongst educated workers, unemployment is typically well under 5%. Even then, if we dig further and break it up between recent, inexperienced workers and those with experience and skills, the latter are even more rarely unemployed.

Some level of unemployment ("frictional unemployment") is merely the result of voluntary choices of workers, or is associated with job switching.

Thus for large sections of the labour market, unemployment is the exception, not the rule. Your analysis doesn't hold.

For unskilled workers, unemployment is partially the result of various government policies including minimum wage and generous benefits. There is no reason to expect that in an unregulated market, unemployment amongst unskilled workers would be any higher than amongst skilled workers today.

Because under my model labor is simply no longer alienated from capital. Capital is socialized. As far as I understand it, that is not capitalism but socialism. And I think, or at least hope, that what I stated above makes that a bit clearer.

As we discussed in the past, there is no bright line between personal property and capital. There is no way of enforcing the rule that capital is socialised. If you are proposing a free society, some people will prefer maintaining control over businesses that they start. And some people will be happy to work for them.

Are you going to prohibit those relations, or merely expect them never to occur?

All the diversity within capitalism (and there is a lot) functions around the basic separation of capital from labor for the production of surplus value, or profit which in turn is put in service to the increase of capital. I hold this Marxist view.

It seems to me that this view is hopelessly simplistic. Where do you fit senior management? Workers rewarded with stock options? Retired workers whose pension is invested in the stock market? Entrepreneurs who manage companies funded with a bank loan?

Communities could also supply jobs, and where necessary multiple communities could come together to supply jobs where needed.

That goes back to my question about the nature of relations between communities. If a community runs out of resources, what then? Will a community be forced to accept new residents, or would it be able to control its population growth? If it is the former, who would force it, absent central government? If it is the latter, who would guarantee work for people who left a failed community?

There is no equal bargaining power between capital and labor under capitalism. Capital always has the distinct advantage, and always has.

The vast improvement in the conditions and wages of workers (outside the domains in which either government regulations or labour unions play any role) is a clear evidence to the contrary.

Why do you think capital will always have the advantage? Since workers control their own labour and have the freedom to organise into syndicates, what power would capital retain? After all, "capital" doesn't really monopolise anything. Funds for starting a business are available to all. So where is this power coming from?
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Eran wrote:People do have that capacity. The vast majority choose to work 40-50 hours a week, rather than work less and earn less. But nothing in capitalism or free markets prejudices people's choice.


Not really, and not in an optimal way either. Most people can't go to their boss and say, I'm going to work four hours a day instead of eight. More importantly there are severe penalties to this happening: e.g. loss of health benefits. What we see, often, is the need to work forty to fifty hours a week out of necessity. As capitalism creates the need for constant consumption (since capital accumulation is the telos of the system) this necessity is hyper-inflated. Society could work less, be more productive in needed goods, have more leisure, and have less overproduction for the sake of creating profits.
No more so than "capital" is always begging labor to come and work for it.

So would you suggest that, in the history of capitalism, the bargaining power of labor has been equally problematic or more problematic than unemployment? Or, put differently, that the history of capitalism has more so been employers struggling to find workers willing to work, as opposed to workers finding employment? I mean I honestly don't see the equivalence that you seem to easily find.
Just as those who control labour (i.e. each person controlling his own labour) are always seeking to exploit the need of businesses to their labour, and earn money off them.

No--it's actually often a bit different. Labor is seeking to earn a living wage, i.e. subsistence. This is different than seeking to gain a profit off of capital.
Would highly successful communities contribute money/resources to less successful communities? If so, would they be forced to do so (by whom?) or do so of their own free will?

Well we have been through this a bit. Like I said communities would be federated. So there would probably, of necessity, be some things shared in common--like access to healthcare, education, adequate shelter and food, transportation, etc. So funds would need to be shifted for this to occur. But yes it would have to occur under agreement. However, I don't necessarily see this as fundamentally problematic, particularly if all stand to benefit: We give to a common pool for common goods from which we would all benefit.
However, the point is that the relationship between capital owners and workers is not necessarily exploitative, unpleasant, adversarial, or is otherwise against the interest of the workers.

With that in mind, I wonder again why you categorically reject wage labour, as opposed to merely calling for it to be improved?

No it is not always an unhappy circumstance--however, I think it more often than not is. I don't think, by and large, that people generally find work to be a pleasant experience under capitalism. But that, again, is difficult to measure. What I do think is accurate is that work, under capitalism, is predicated under the threat of unemployment. One needs permission to work by those who control capital. This, at the very core, creates circumstances both of conflict between labor and capital and gives capital the hefty advantage in the conflict. This situation is what makes the rhetorically effective phrase "wage slavery" so abhorrent.

Unemployment figures vary a lot.

No doubt. However, unemployment functions within the capitalist economy as both collateral damage of the conflict between labor and capital and as a means to get labor to do as capital sees fit. You have to work in order to subsist. But only certain people have the means to allow work to happen. You can see how this becomes a situation which creates gross differentiation of power--hence the large amount of inequality that is often part and parcel to capitalism.
As we discussed in the past, there is no bright line between personal property and capital. There is no way of enforcing the rule that capital is socialised. If you are proposing a free society, some people will prefer maintaining control over businesses that they start. And some people will be happy to work for them.

Are you going to prohibit those relations, or merely expect them never to occur?

We are going to transform the conditions under which all this does occur. So, like I said, there simply is no circumstance where labor is alienated from capital. The conflict that I have been describing as so fundamental (and problematic) to capitalism between capital and labor does not exist.

It seems to me that this view is hopelessly simplistic. Where do you fit senior management? Workers rewarded with stock options? Retired workers whose pension is invested in the stock market? Entrepreneurs who manage companies funded with a bank loan?

Senior management is no different from management of labor lines in the 19th and 20th century. They are not the ones who necessarily make the decisions on a particular business, but they are invested in it for their own wellbeing. This still doesn't change the nature and structure of capitalism and the relation between labor and capital. Stock options--which have always existed--are also no different. When I worked at Starbucks, I had the option to own some stock in the company. Granted it was a fraction of a fraction and I still could make no decisions about the company, but I could own some stock. I treated that as part of my income for subsistence. That's quite different from using it in order to earn profits which I then invest to earn more profits which I then invest, etc. And what about entrepreneurs who manage companies funded with a bank loan? The private bank is what gives the permission to of the use of capital for its own private advantage. That is capitalism!
That goes back to my question about the nature of relations between communities. If a community runs out of resources, what then? Will a community be forced to accept new residents, or would it be able to control its population growth? If it is the former, who would force it, absent central government? If it is the latter, who would guarantee work for people who left a failed community?

Well these are quite situational questions, much of which would have to be dealt with as they arise. Again, like I said I'm not talking about isolated communities that just work for their own self-interest. Anarchism, as I view it--and as has been traditionally understood--is a federated and organized system with no centralized power. Ideally, there is some sort of mechanism that federated syndicates and communities have planned and worked out in order to deal with problems large scale problems.

The vast improvement in the conditions and wages of workers (outside the domains in which either government regulations or labour unions play any role) is a clear evidence to the contrary.

Why do you think capital will always have the advantage? Since workers control their own labour and have the freedom to organise into syndicates, what power would capital retain? After all, "capital" doesn't really monopolise anything. Funds for starting a business are available to all. So where is this power coming from?

Improvements to labor conditions actually speaks precisely to what I am talking about, which is conflict between capital and labor. Capital did not just give labor better working conditions because they asked for it. It had to be fought for. And, as we also see, these conditions are often taken away and are sought to be rolled back!

Why do I think capital always has the advantage? Well, historically--and empirically--I think it actually has. I mean the history of capitalism has simply not been one of labor telling capital what to do! Quite the contrary. But we can see this advantage even in abstract theory: capital is much more mobile and easier to consolidate. Labor is much more sedentary and must struggle to unite. For example, while capital can move from one country to another with a press of a button, labor is restricted to the limits of an isolated body. Likewise with the consolidation of capital. It is much easier for capital to be accumulated by wealthy people and institutions than it is for labor to unite various bodies in diverse situations and conditions. Again history bares this out.
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anticlimacus wrote:Not really, and not in an optimal way either. Most people can't go to their boss and say, I'm going to work four hours a day instead of eight. More importantly there are severe penalties to this happening: e.g. loss of health benefits. What we see, often, is the need to work forty to fifty hours a week out of necessity. As capitalism creates the need for constant consumption (since capital accumulation is the telos of the system) this necessity is hyper-inflated. Society could work less, be more productive in needed goods, have more leisure, and have less overproduction for the sake of creating profits.

anticlimacus wrote:So would you suggest that, in the history of capitalism, the bargaining power of labor has been equally problematic or more problematic than unemployment? Or, put differently, that the history of capitalism has more so been employers struggling to find workers willing to work, as opposed to workers finding employment? I mean I honestly don't see the equivalence that you seem to easily find.

anticlimacus wrote:No--it's actually often a bit different. Labor is seeking to earn a living wage, i.e. subsistence. This is different than seeking to gain a profit off of capital.

etc

The underlying assumption you have with all of these types of statements is that people are entitled to a house, car, processed food, electricity etc of at least some minimum level. Every one of these things needs to be created by the labour of people and whereas surviving by foraging requires you to labour by yourself. If you wish to partake of the benefits of a modern society then you need to plug yourself into the way that the society works. You don't have to work 40-50 hour weeks in a factory in order to have a tiled roof over your head with indoor plumbing and an electric stove. You can choose to work 20 hours a week hunting and gathering for your subsistence needs instead.

Further by focussing on the hard-nosed economics of these sorts of things you are ignoring the fact that everyone else is in the same boat and in a society there is social capital as well. Social capital underpinned the tens of thousands of mutual associations (or Friendly Societies) in the 1700 and 1800's and into the early 1900s. Reciprocity was based on the shared social risks posed by poverty. Configuring friendly societies such
that each contributed according to ability and received according to liability, people found a socially meaningful way of integrating and protecting the poor, the sick, the aged, the widowed etc into British and American society. From the view of economic liberalism, individuals cooperate socially because it is in their interest to do so. Market and social cooperation evolved together in the Anglophone world (I don't know enough about the history of other countries to comment on their experience). It is because people are worried about the vagaries of life and risks that they simultaneously seek to find ways to protect themselves against them and this benefits both the individual and, consequently all of the individuals comprising a society in general.
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Voluntarism wrote:The underlying assumption you have with all of these types of statements is that people are entitled to a house, car, processed food, electricity etc of at least some minimum level. Every one of these things needs to be created by the labour of people and whereas surviving by foraging requires you to labour by yourself. If you wish to partake of the benefits of a modern society then you need to plug yourself into the way that the society works. You don't have to work 40-50 hour weeks in a factory in order to have a tiled roof over your head with indoor plumbing and an electric stove. You can choose to work 20 hours a week hunting and gathering for your subsistence needs instead.


Well, to a certain extent there is truth to what you say. Yes, I think everyone should be entitled to certain basic needs like adequate healthcare, food, shelter, housing, and education. I may have assumed this, but I've also been fairly blunt about it too--it's no secret. These are things that we can supply to all and things we should supply to all as a precondition for meaningful participation and functioning within society. These are basic enabling preconditions that allow for self-determination within modern society. If one is threatened by not having available healthcare, that is a detriment to one's ability for self-determination. The same would be if one does not have access to educational opportunities, shelter, food, transportation, etc. These are things we can supply as a society, and things we should supply as a society.

Also, I have never denied that these are created by labor--they always have been. What I disagree with is that only some should be allowed to partake in these basic needs. The problem is not that we don't have people willing to labor. We do. The problem is that we have labor unable to adequately make ends meet--or for labor to find employment or employment where they have some modicum of control over their working lives.

The issue here is not really my assumptions, but, ironically, yours. You are assuming that only within a society based on private property that we can have the benefits that we have today--like healthcare, education, etc. I don't make this assumption. We live in a society where it is possible to feed, clothe, shelter, educate, and provide healthcare to the world, yet more than half go without. I don't think it is the case that in order to produce so much that could benefit all, we also at the same time must have a social organization that excludes so many from participating. And neither do I buy into the ideological myth that all those who try hard enough will be able to successfully acquire these basic needs. Modern society has advanced in production and technology to supply these goods--it has not advanced likewise in social organization.
Further by focussing on the hard-nosed economics of these sorts of things you are ignoring the fact that everyone else is in the same boat and in a society there is social capital as well. Social capital underpinned the tens of thousands of mutual associations (or Friendly Societies) in the 1700 and 1800's and into the early 1900s. Reciprocity was based on the shared social risks posed by poverty. Configuring friendly societies such
that each contributed according to ability and received according to liability, people found a socially meaningful way of integrating and protecting the poor, the sick, the aged, the widowed etc into British and American society. From the view of economic liberalism, individuals cooperate socially because it is in their interest to do so. Market and social cooperation evolved together in the Anglophone world (I don't know enough about the history of other countries to comment on their experience). It is because people are worried about the vagaries of life and risks that they simultaneously seek to find ways to protect themselves against them and this benefits both the individual and, consequently all of the individuals comprising a society in general.


I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Where have I ignored social capital? I also have argued, extensively here and elsewhere, that capitalism is simply not based on cooperation--but conflict. Marx, I think, was fundamentally correct in this regard. It is not a cooperative society where self-interest leads to the best outcome for all. It is a society based on division between labor and capital, which creates conflict between producers (laborers) and those who seek to profit off of their production ("capitalists").

It also seems like you are suggesting that benevolence is a suitable substitution for socially designed and institutionally structured systems of "social welfare" (for lack of a better term). I fundamentally disagree with that, and don't see any historical support for such a claim. Again, we have an archaic social structure (based on exclusion via economic domination) within an advanced productive and technological society. The horribly unequal and potentially catastrophic social structure needs to catch up with the undeniably advanced capacity for production and technology.
#14416474
anticlimacus wrote:Most people can't go to their boss and say, I'm going to work four hours a day instead of eight.

No. But most if not all people can choose a job or career which is conducive to part-time employment. I did when I was a student. My children do today, as do millions and millions of others. Health benefits as part of employment is a peculiar distortion of the American system, nothing inherent in the capitalist system.

As capitalism creates the need for constant consumption (since capital accumulation is the telos of the system) this necessity is hyper-inflated.

Where did you get that idea? The "system" has no telos. Only individuals acting within it do. Their telos is typically maximising their subjective wellbeing, often through maximising (within boundaries) their monetary wealth.

I'm not sure what you mean by "constant consumption". Aren't people consuming (food, clothing, shelter, etc.) constantly under any system?

Society could work less, be more productive in needed goods, have more leisure, and have less overproduction for the sake of creating profits.

And it already does. People work many fewer hours per week than they did 100 years or more ago. We are already working less. How do you know how much work is right?

So would you suggest that, in the history of capitalism, the bargaining power of labor has been equally problematic or more problematic than unemployment? Or, put differently, that the history of capitalism has more so been employers struggling to find workers willing to work, as opposed to workers finding employment? I mean I honestly don't see the equivalence that you seem to easily find.

The dominant situation is actually fairly equal. At market-clearing wages, there is an equilibrium between employers looking for employees and employees looking for employers. The normal, long-term unemployment rate is in low single digits. I'm not sure at all it is higher than the comparable statistics of the number of vacancies awaiting filling.

As for "bargaining power", I have no idea how you define or quantify it.

Labor is seeking to earn a living wage, i.e. subsistence. This is different than seeking to gain a profit off of capital.

We have long ago passed the stage of economic development in which labour is merely seeking subsistence. Even the lowest-paid of Western workers (and the majority of developing countries as well) earn far more than "subsistence wages" (thanks to capitalism). Labour is seeking to earn more so as to facilitating consumption of luxuries, from colour TVs to foreign vacations, from cars to game machines.

Business owners are also trying to earn a living. Their mode of doing so involves risking their savings, working very hard, and providing jobs to others. That their reward is labelled "profit" rather than "wage" is completely beside the point.

Like I said communities would be federated. So there would probably, of necessity, be some things shared in common--like access to healthcare, education, adequate shelter and food, transportation, etc. So funds would need to be shifted for this to occur. But yes it would have to occur under agreement. However, I don't necessarily see this as fundamentally problematic, particularly if all stand to benefit: We give to a common pool for common goods from which we would all benefit.

Here is what puzzles me. You stipulate a world in which communities will voluntarily cooperate without a central authority, and in which stronger communities will transfer funds (either directly or indirectly) to support weaker communities, right?

Why then couldn't you contemplate a world in which the same holds at the individual level?

I don't think, by and large, that people generally find work to be a pleasant experience under capitalism.

You are absolutely right. What I always say is "work is so bad, they have to pay me to do it". But then, I don't think people generally find work to be a pleasant experience under any other system. Members of a syndicate and self-employed farmers work because they have to, not because it is a "pleasant experience". However, in the competition between employers, it pays to try and make the working experience as pleasant as reasonably possible. That is why so many employers add so many "features" to their work places.

What I do think is accurate is that work, under capitalism, is predicated under the threat of unemployment. One needs permission to work by those who control capital.

This is a totally distorted way of looking at things. Employment is a form of cooperation. In any voluntary cooperation, the agreement of both sides is required. When forming a family, I need the "permission" of the woman I court. When I buy food, I need the "permission" of the supermarket. When I join a club, I need the "permission" of its current members. When, as an employer, I am looking for workers, I need the "permission" of each worker to work for me.

Work, as established above, is often unpleasant. Under any economic system, people have to work to produce essential and desired products. If you don't provide people with incentives, most would rather be idle, or pursue their (not necessarily productive) interests. So any system predicates work under some "threat".

In addition, you wrongly present a distinction between workers and those who "control capital". In fact, no such distinction exists since almost any piece of property can become "capital", and since obtaining financing for the purpose of purchasing machines is easily available to all.

Most people in society have to work to earn a living. Any society. In a free system, people can choose between various production modes, including self-employment, employing others, joining others in a collective/syndicate/co-op, or seeking employment as wage-earners. In general, all options are open to any person. The fact that most people choose the latter is merely an indication that wage labour is a fairly efficient way of organising production.

Compare to the production of food. Every society needs to produce food. We could (and used to) grow our own food. However, in modern society, efficiency is served by having one class of people ("farmers") produce food for the rest of us. And since we all need to eat, we are at the mercy of this group. We need the permission of the farmer class who control food production. We are at their mercy. We have to pay whatever they charge us under threat of starvation. Right?

You have to work in order to subsist. But only certain people have the means to allow work to happen.

You have to eat in order to live. But only certain people ("farmers") have the means to allow you to eat. Makes just as much sense.

First, there are many different employers who compete with each other to buy your labour. Second, you can become self-employed, or start a business with a bunch of your "exploited" friends. No person, no group has a monopoly over productive capital. Anybody can produce, buy or hire it. Third, employers need employees just as much as employees need employers. Have a look at the "wanted" ads to find hundreds and thousands of employers desperately looking for employees.

The conflict that I have been describing as so fundamental (and problematic) to capitalism between capital and labor does not exist.

Potential conflicts occur whenever people cooperate. From divorces to business disputes. The labour/employer relationship isn't any more conflictual than any other voluntary relationship in our society.

When I worked at Starbucks, I had the option to own some stock in the company. Granted it was a fraction of a fraction and I still could make no decisions about the company, but I could own some stock. I treated that as part of my income for subsistence.

How is your inability to make decisions any different from that of a single syndicate member? If you are one in a thousand members of the syndicate, aren't you just as helpless making decisions?

And what about entrepreneurs who manage companies funded with a bank loan? The private bank is what gives the permission to of the use of capital for its own private advantage. That is capitalism!

Indeed. Every transaction is voluntary, which means that it is for the advantage of both sides. So yes, the private bank gives "permission" to use the capital for its own private advantage. At the same time, the borrower gives "permission" to be charged interest, and takes the loan for its own private advantage.

An employer offers jobs to people for its own private advantage, even while workers accept that offer for their own private advantage. And, as if led by an invisible hand, all those actions, each of which is done by somebody for his own private advantage, end up creating the complex and highly productive (and generally peaceful) economy we see around us.

Capital did not just give labor better working conditions because they asked for it. It had to be fought for. And, as we also see, these conditions are often taken away and are sought to be rolled back!

Actually, the vast majority of improvements have not had to be fought for. Rather, they have emerged as employers competed for each other. For example, I now work in an air-conditioned office. I think many people in the west benefit from air-conditioned offices. Yet they aren't unionised. No government regulation requires air-conditioning. And air-conditioning costs money.

I get more vacation than required be law. So do most permanent employees. There is no need for "fighting" to improve working conditions, any more than supermarket customers need to "fight" for the supermarket to adopt air-conditioning.




The bottom line is that your vision can be realised within my ideal society. Workers can come together, pull their resources, fund community banks and, in turn, form syndicates and federated communities. This project only requires that workers want it. Nothing that capitalists can do (in a free market) can stop your project. If, that is, you are right about the priorities of the very workers whose wellbeing concerns you.
#14416644
Eran wrote:No. But most if not all people can choose a job or career which is conducive to part-time employment. I did when I was a student. My children do today, as do millions and millions of others. Health benefits as part of employment is a peculiar distortion of the American system, nothing inherent in the capitalist system.


Benjamin Franklin famously wrote, "if every Man and Woman would work for four Hours each Day on something useful, that Labour would produce sufficient to procure all the Necessities and Comforts of Life, Want and Misery would be banished out of the World, and the rest of the 24 hours might be Leisure and Pleasure." Now this was 200 years ago, but it is very relevant today--and this is what I am getting at. People could work considerably less than they do without the threat of losing certain basic goods.

Where did you get that idea? The "system" has no telos. Only individuals acting within it do. Their telos is typically maximising their subjective wellbeing, often through maximising (within boundaries) their monetary wealth.

I'm not sure what you mean by "constant consumption". Aren't people consuming (food, clothing, shelter, etc.) constantly under any system?


Individuals act within social systems. It is not just natural that all of the sudden private property, market exchanges, wage employment, and profit creation became the dominant economic mode of production. This developed over a long history of institutional transformations. There is a logic to this system, which Marx described as follows: M(money)-C(Commodity)-M. Money is used to buy certain commodities which creates a profit which accumulates as capital. It begins and ends with money creation. This is the driving factor of the system and how individuals function within it.

Now in other systems, say Feudalism, there is also consumption. But not like under capitalism--just like production is different so is consumption. There is not a similar drive for capital accumulation under Feudalism as in Capitalism. There is much more hoarding, and domination is political much more than economic. Since, under capitalism, production is for the purposes of creating profit (as described above), there is also a need for more and more consumption and markets for that consumption. Is all the consumption necessary for social wellbeing? No. What is the consumption about? It is about creating private profits. This creates inefficiencies, waste, overconsumption in some places, and underconsumption in others--overall irrationalities of the system.
People work many fewer hours per week than they did 100 years or more ago. We are already working less. How do you know how much work is right?

Much of this, however, is due to labor laws fought for by organized labor, against excessive working hours instituted under capitalism. I think we could easily move to average 20 hour work weeks, four hour work days.
The dominant situation is actually fairly equal. At market-clearing wages, there is an equilibrium between employers looking for employees and employees looking for employers. The normal, long-term unemployment rate is in low single digits. I'm not sure at all it is higher than the comparable statistics of the number of vacancies awaiting filling.

As for "bargaining power", I have no idea how you define or quantify it.

Well, let's just take an example. In the US over the past 40 years while production has increased steadily, working compensation has not kept up. In connection with this, inequality has continually increased, major including income and financial disparities. This has occurred all the while labor unions in the US have seen a sharp decline. The reason is not that people don't want to be in unions. But that government has often sided against unions and it has become increasingly more difficult for unions to form. Trends like this have happened throughout the history of capitalism. Yes, you are correct--labor has a huge amount of power, if it is organized (Hence Marx's call in the Manifesto: "Workers unite!". The problem is its capacity to organize is not nearly as easy had as it is for capital to consolidate and organize.

We have long ago passed the stage of economic development in which labour is merely seeking subsistence. Even the lowest-paid of Western workers (and the majority of developing countries as well) earn far more than "subsistence wages" (thanks to capitalism). Labour is seeking to earn more so as to facilitating consumption of luxuries, from colour TVs to foreign vacations, from cars to game machines.

Business owners are also trying to earn a living. Their mode of doing so involves risking their savings, working very hard, and providing jobs to others. That their reward is labelled "profit" rather than "wage" is completely beside the point.


In some places this has occurred. But also in those places the structure of capitalism has also changed. For instance, credit and financialization has become central to, not only advanced capitalist countries, but global capitalism. So while most people actually cannot afford certain goods--like houses, TVs, cars, etc. they are able to buy them by borrowing and then paying interest. Thus individual debt has become a given under current capitalism and has, in fact, become part of the way in which profits are continually made. This was not always the case. Business also has a major hand in this. It needs people to keep buying the constant flow of new products--as mentioned above, for the accumulation of capital there will always need to be new markets. So while buying power has gone down with wages, credit has become a means in which labor can continue to buy the goods business so desperately wants people to consume. The average consumer and/or worker is not a part of the investing class able to create these markets, and that owns most of the stock and is therefore able to make most of the decisions concerning capital. The average consumer works in order to earn a living wage and participate as a consumer.

Here is what puzzles me. You stipulate a world in which communities will voluntarily cooperate without a central authority, and in which stronger communities will transfer funds (either directly or indirectly) to support weaker communities, right?

Why then couldn't you contemplate a world in which the same holds at the individual level?

Actually, I seek to make the individual level more fulfilling by undergirding it by cooperative social planning. I do not think that if we just go by the rule of self-interest that all ends well for all, particularly when wealth is so unequally shared to begin with. My view is that social systems based on private property leads to individualization and unjustifiable inequality, which fragments society and tends to privatize social problems: e.g. the fact that I cannot get health care gets hidden as a personal problem, as opposed to a social problem in that we live in a society where healthcare is not guaranteed for all; or the fact that I struggle to find work becomes my personal problem as opposed to a social problem where finding suitable employment is problematic, etc. My view is that private property should be socialized and the workplace democratized--individuality should be built out of communal structures of cooperation. Capitalist individualism has the tendency of focusing solely on the individual transaction (of a sale or agreement) without considering the context within which such transactions occur. This is a toxic form of individualism, which isolates people and their situations from each other.

This is a totally distorted way of looking at things. Employment is a form of cooperation. In any voluntary cooperation, the agreement of both sides is required. When forming a family, I need the "permission" of the woman I court. When I buy food, I need the "permission" of the supermarket. When I join a club, I need the "permission" of its current members. When, as an employer, I am looking for workers, I need the "permission" of each worker to work for me.

When you look at with by telescoping in on an individual transaction, yes it is a form of cooperation. But when you zoom out and look at the bigger picture and realize, for example, that worker Joe just agreed to cut his wages and stay at job X because jobs are scarce, then it becomes clearer that such agreements are made under circumstances that favor one party over another. That what makes capitalist "freedom" and "voluntary cooperation" such a farce. It's all formality without any consideration of substantial differences of those involved in contractual relations.

In addition, you wrongly present a distinction between workers and those who "control capital". In fact, no such distinction exists since almost any piece of property can become "capital", and since obtaining financing for the purpose of purchasing machines is easily available to all.

There is a reason why only a small few individuals and institutions have an exorbitant amount of control over the world's wealth. It is, largely, because there is very much a difference between those who control capital and those who do not. If I work in a factory which then closes down and moves to another country (or state), I as a worker have little to no say on whether or not that happens. If production in society slows down due to an economic crisis and workplaces become vacant while workers remain without jobs although willing to work, I as a worker have little say as to whether or not I can just go into the factory and start producing. I need the permission of those who own the means of production. This is, again, another irrationality of the capitalist system.

Potential conflicts occur whenever people cooperate. From divorces to business disputes. The labour/employer relationship isn't any more conflictual than any other voluntary relationship in our society.

Sure, but the conflict peculiar to capitalism is a socially structured one that serves as the basis for capitalist production. It is also preventable by socializing the means of production.
How is your inability to make decisions any different from that of a single syndicate member? If you are one in a thousand members of the syndicate, aren't you just as helpless making decisions?

Well, just look at Mondragon. Workers have much more say about what goes on in their immediate working environment and working lives than they otherwise would. Workers also vote in those who lead boards and direct industry, as opposed to having those who own most the shares having exclusive say. So I think through and through you actually see quite the opposite. It's not so much a top down structure as something more in-between. Workers are not given innocuous choices from those in power, like in the American electoral system, and then they get to vote. Workers actually get to participate in forming the kinds of choices available.

Actually, the vast majority of improvements have not had to be fought for. Rather, they have emerged as employers competed for each other. For example, I now work in an air-conditioned office. I think many people in the west benefit from air-conditioned offices. Yet they aren't unionised. No government regulation requires air-conditioning. And air-conditioning costs money.

I think you need to review some of the history of labor movements. You mention air-conditioners in your office. I know very little about your work. But workers have united in the past for holidays, shorter working hours, higher wages, safe working conditions, and appropriate working ages. These have been fought for not only through years of struggle, but even through blood. They did not come easily--and neither do they stay easily.

The bottom line is that your vision can be realised within my ideal society. Workers can come together, pull their resources, fund community banks and, in turn, form syndicates and federated communities. This project only requires that workers want it. Nothing that capitalists can do (in a free market) can stop your project. If, that is, you are right about the priorities of the very workers whose wellbeing concerns you.

Not really. Your vision is anarcho-capitalism. What I see there is capital consolidating amongst a small group of private owners who dominate society. In principle workers can join unions, but capitalists will do everything in their power to prevent this from happening--just as they do today.
#14416756
anticlimacus wrote:Well, to a certain extent there is truth to what you say. Yes, I think everyone should be entitled to certain basic needs like adequate healthcare, food, shelter, housing, and education. I may have assumed this, but I've also been fairly blunt about it too--it's no secret. These are things that we can supply to all and things we should supply to all as a precondition for meaningful participation and functioning within society. These are basic enabling preconditions that allow for self-determination within modern society. If one is threatened by not having available healthcare, that is a detriment to one's ability for self-determination. The same would be if one does not have access to educational opportunities, shelter, food, transportation, etc. These are things we can supply as a society, and things we should supply as a society.

Also, I have never denied that these are created by labor--they always have been. What I disagree with is that only some should be allowed to partake in these basic needs. The problem is not that we don't have people willing to labor. We do. The problem is that we have labor unable to adequately make ends meet--or for labor to find employment or employment where they have some modicum of control over their working lives.

The issue here is not really my assumptions, but, ironically, yours. You are assuming that only within a society based on private property that we can have the benefits that we have today--like healthcare, education, etc. I don't make this assumption. We live in a society where it is possible to feed, clothe, shelter, educate, and provide healthcare to the world, yet more than half go without. I don't think it is the case that in order to produce so much that could benefit all, we also at the same time must have a social organization that excludes so many from participating. And neither do I buy into the ideological myth that all those who try hard enough will be able to successfully acquire these basic needs. Modern society has advanced in production and technology to supply these goods--it has not advanced likewise in social organization.

Eran has addressed this many times in many ways over time. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be sinking in as you see things through a paradigm which refuses to acknowledge the basic concept of property rights, rule of law and individual liberty as being what created the ability to consume and trade. The modern world in the West exists because it grew up with a substantially different way of structuring society. The rest of the world failed because they have been forced to cling to other models or have adopted socialist ideals and have consequently stagnated or collapsed in comparison (although they have benefited massively by proxy as the efficiency of the west has allowed far cheaper imports).

Working hard and skill and education is not enough. Just as individual businesses go broke without keeping a strict eye on the till or by adopting bad practices so too do economies. I'm pretty sure that you know that things get produced in the quantities that they do because of division of labour and the accumulation of labour saving but roundabout methods of production. But you need to also recognise that only an efficient division of labour promotes productivity growth and innovation. Anyone can create division of labour. Hardly anyone can allocate it efficiently. This is the fundamental benefit of the "invisible hand" and it requires private property rights. You simply cannot have an efficient division of labour that promotes improvements in the average condition of people's lives without it.


Anticlimacus wrote:I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Where have I ignored social capital? I also have argued, extensively here and elsewhere, that capitalism is simply not based on cooperation--but conflict. Marx, I think, was fundamentally correct in this regard. It is not a cooperative society where self-interest leads to the best outcome for all. It is a society based on division between labor and capital, which creates conflict between producers (laborers) and those who seek to profit off of their production ("capitalists").

It also seems like you are suggesting that benevolence is a suitable substitution for socially designed and institutionally structured systems of "social welfare" (for lack of a better term). I fundamentally disagree with that, and don't see any historical support for such a claim. Again, we have an archaic social structure (based on exclusion via economic domination) within an advanced productive and technological society. The horribly unequal and potentially catastrophic social structure needs to catch up with the undeniably advanced capacity for production and technology.

I meant that you ignore the importance of social capital in the history of individualist societies (namely the Anglophone countries). The Friendly Societies were a completely voluntary solution to the problems inflicted on people through chance and circumstance. They evolved simultaneously with the heyday of capitalism and had a very substantial influence on all aspects of life. Employers and employees were often members of the same societies as were people of all religions and ethnic origins - which meant that class divisions were broken down. Employees working in similar industries naturally clubbed together to provide health, death, unemployment, etc insurance. This had many subtle but far reaching consequences. Take the issue of death insurance. At the time, the risk of death in, say, mining was substantially higher than in other industries. Consequently most Friendly Societies refused to have miners as members and the miners set up their own. By the nature of actuarial calculation this obviously meant that membership fees/premiums were lower in low risk professions and higher in higher risk professions. This simultaneously resulted in higher wages for miners (either directly or indirectly through the employers paying the membership fees/premiums). Society was therefore pricing this "externality" rather than subsidising dangerous activities at the expense of low-risk activities (as happens under universal health care).

The societies fundamentally upheld the principles of individual liberty, voluntarism, equality, self-ownership etc simultaneously with the need for mutual aid, benevolence, etc. They were "societies" whereby people joined as individuals but acted for the mutual interest of the group. Many had membership fees based on capacity to pay. Doctors associations would provide the very poor with free health care but charge everyone else on a progressive scale using rent or other measures as an indication of their capacity to pay (and therefore cross-subsidise the giving of care to the poor).

I know this is all a bit rambling, but it as MikeM has raised before, it is an area that Libertarians typically neglect to talk about because we are focussed on the philosophy of the law and the existence of the legal system to uphold rights and nothing else. Hence, it is one thing to say that the legal system should not be used to redistribute income by force for some well-intentioned purpose. It is another to say that the well-intentioned purpose won't fundamentally be provided for and won't - in the end - be paid for for those with the capacity to pay.
#14416912
Voluntarism wrote:Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be sinking in as you see things through a paradigm which refuses to acknowledge the basic concept of property rights, rule of law and individual liberty as being what created the ability to consume and trade. The modern world in the West exists because it grew up with a substantially different way of structuring society. The rest of the world failed because they have been forced to cling to other models or have adopted socialist ideals and have consequently stagnated or collapsed in comparison (although they have benefited massively by proxy as the efficiency of the west has allowed far cheaper imports).


We have to begin by pointing out that "the rest of the world" (meaning everything besides the West) did not "fail." I'm not even sure what that means in terms of what constitutes social (including cultural and economic) success. And should we also call it the "success" of the West that much of its wealth has come from (and continues to come from) pure plunder military domination? Were, for instance, the Native Americans failures before the West came? Was the Continent of Africa a "failure" before the West came? And has the only difference between Western Europe and the rest of the world simply been its economic structure? What about the peculiarity of its religions and political organizations, particularly since the fall of the Roman Empire? Of course what you say above has not been "sinking in"--it's utterly and vacuously too simplistic.

We must also point out that where socialism has been applied it did not result in simple stagnation and collapse. For instance, Soviet command socialism actually catapulted Russia into the modern world. China also made striking advancements with its command socialism and, in fact, raised the standard of living for its population. It must also be recognized that capitalist free market principles have not led to unequivocal successes. For instance, neoliberalism in post-Communist Russia was a disaster. Even in the US, free market approaches have led to economic crashes, such as the Great Depression and the Great Recession--both products of capitalism.

Working hard and skill and education is not enough. Just as individual businesses go broke without keeping a strict eye on the till or by adopting bad practices so too do economies. I'm pretty sure that you know that things get produced in the quantities that they do because of division of labour and the accumulation of labour saving but roundabout methods of production. But you need to also recognise that only an efficient division of labour promotes productivity growth and innovation. Anyone can create division of labour. Hardly anyone can allocate it efficiently. This is the fundamental benefit of the "invisible hand" and it requires private property rights. You simply cannot have an efficient division of labour that promotes improvements in the average condition of people's lives without it.


I don't agree with your assumption the "invisible hand" of the market simply allocates the division of labor efficiently. In fact, I think it often does quite the opposite. The fact that a factory that produces clothing can simply go idle because no profits can be made off of it, while labor is ready, willing, and able to work the factory is not "efficient."

Voluntarism wrote:I meant that you ignore the importance of social capital in the history of individualist societies (namely the Anglophone countries). The Friendly Societies were a completely voluntary solution to the problems inflicted on people through chance and circumstance. They evolved simultaneously with the heyday of capitalism and had a very substantial influence on all aspects of life. Employers and employees were often members of the same societies as were people of all religions and ethnic origins - which meant that class divisions were broken down. Employees working in similar industries naturally clubbed together to provide health, death, unemployment, etc insurance. This had many subtle but far reaching consequences. Take the issue of death insurance. At the time, the risk of death in, say, mining was substantially higher than in other industries. Consequently most Friendly Societies refused to have miners as members and the miners set up their own. By the nature of actuarial calculation this obviously meant that membership fees/premiums were lower in low risk professions and higher in higher risk professions. This simultaneously resulted in higher wages for miners (either directly or indirectly through the employers paying the membership fees/premiums). Society was therefore pricing this "externality" rather than subsidising dangerous activities at the expense of low-risk activities (as happens under universal health care).

The societies fundamentally upheld the principles of individual liberty, voluntarism, equality, self-ownership etc simultaneously with the need for mutual aid, benevolence, etc. They were "societies" whereby people joined as individuals but acted for the mutual interest of the group. Many had membership fees based on capacity to pay. Doctors associations would provide the very poor with free health care but charge everyone else on a progressive scale using rent or other measures as an indication of their capacity to pay (and therefore cross-subsidise the giving of care to the poor).


I have nothing against voluntary organizations the pool their resources together to ensure the wellbeing of its social members--this is precisely what anarchists have meant by a Federated network of free communities. In fact it's anarchist Peter Kropotkin who calls for a society based on "mutual-aid". I'm not sure why you say I ignore this. Part of this pool also is the socialization of the means of production. It makes no sense to talk about a free society when the very means of producing are controlled by private owners. What I do think is that a society, such as Eran's (and I assume yours) which institutes private property as the pillar of social organization actually becomes a barrier to mutual aid. What you are asking for is nothing but privatized tyrannies.
#14416951
anticlimacus wrote:Benjamin Franklin famously wrote, "if every Man and Woman would work for four Hours each Day on something useful, that Labour would produce sufficient to procure all the Necessities and Comforts of Life, Want and Misery would be banished out of the World, and the rest of the 24 hours might be Leisure and Pleasure." Now this was 200 years ago, but it is very relevant today--and this is what I am getting at. People could work considerably less than they do without the threat of losing certain basic goods.

I'm sure that if people today lived by the standards that Benjamin Franklin is proposing here, many people would complain about the grinding poverty they'd have to live in.
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anticlimacus wrote:We must also point out that where socialism has been applied it did not result in simple stagnation and collapse. For instance, Soviet command socialism actually catapulted Russia into the modern world. China also made striking advancements with its command socialism and, in fact, raised the standard of living for its population. It must also be recognized that capitalist free market principles have not led to unequivocal successes. For instance, neoliberalism in post-Communist Russia was a disaster. Even in the US, free market approaches have led to economic crashes, such as the Great Depression and the Great Recession--both products of capitalism.

Post-Communist Russia is not a country based on individual rights or a respect for property rights so its disasters are fully in line with the conditions we claim are required for success. The US Great Depression and Great Recession are similarly readily explained by centralist intervention into the heart of what makes Laissez-Faire economies work efficiently. It is the abandonment of individualism in key parts of the economy that therefore created these problems. There is plenty of literature on this.

anticlimacus wrote:I don't agree with your assumption the "invisible hand" of the market simply allocates the division of labor efficiently. In fact, I think it often does quite the opposite. The fact that a factory that produces clothing can simply go idle because no profits can be made off of it, while labor is ready, willing, and able to work the factory is not "efficient."

You simply have to read about the economic calculation problem (and the knowledge problem) which proves that the "invisible hand" is the most efficient method. The fact that you see a problem with a factory "sitting idle" means that you don't appreciate the important process of creative destruction and how this is a necessary part of actually improving the ability of the economy to more efficiently supply people's needs and wants with a scarce amount of resources.

anticlimacus wrote:I have nothing against voluntary organizations the pool their resources together to ensure the wellbeing of its social members--this is precisely what anarchists have meant by a Federated network of free communities. In fact it's anarchist Peter Kropotkin who calls for a society based on "mutual-aid". I'm not sure why you say I ignore this. Part of this pool also is the socialization of the means of production. It makes no sense to talk about a free society when the very means of producing are controlled by private owners. What I do think is that a society, such as Eran's (and I assume yours) which institutes private property as the pillar of social organization actually becomes a barrier to mutual aid. What you are asking for is nothing but privatized tyrannies.

I know you have nothing against them. My point is that you ignore them in societies that recognise the natural right of private property. They existed simultaneously. England itself had over 40,000 mutual aid societies covering a vast array of people simultaneously with a (relatively) Laissez-Faire economy. However, these mutual aid societies are fundamentally businesses whereby resources are put in to obtain a range of services. If you run them inefficiently (principally by not recognising the importance of economic calculation) then it is to the detriment of its members. They succeeded in England (and elsewhere) because they respected individual rights and especially property rights.

This is a key point that Eran has been trying to get you to understand about any human activity. To truly know whether or not you are doing something efficiently or beneficial for people you need an efficient mechanism to communicate how efficiently and how beneficial and to be able to adjust accordingly. This mechanism is the fundamental thing missing from societies without private property rights. You simply cannot truly do the maximum good for the maximum number of people without it. If you truly care about bringing people out of poverty (which I presume you do) then you need to understand the real reasons why capitalism succeeded in places like Singapore and Hong Kong and not resort to hand-wavey "military conquest" or "massive exploitation of natural resources" reasons to dismiss the very real successes of England, America, Australia, etc.
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Voluntarism wrote:Post-Communist Russia is not a country based on individual rights or a respect for property rights so its disasters are fully in line with the conditions we claim are required for success. The US Great Depression and Great Recession are similarly readily explained by centralist intervention into the heart of what makes Laissez-Faire economies work efficiently. It is the abandonment of individualism in key parts of the economy that therefore created these problems. There is plenty of literature on this


To be clear, I am not defending command socialism. But if the question is whether or not capitalists economies alone lead to modern productive advancement, that is flatly false. And of course, Austrian Libertarians readily explain every problem within capitalism by looking at state intervention. Of course nothing they say can really be falsified because there never has been such a thing a perfect laissez-faire world, so all problems that may pertain to the nature of capitalism--such as massive global recessions--can be blamed on governments simply due to the fact that they exist.
you simply have to read about the economic calculation problem (and the knowledge problem) which proves that the "invisible hand" is the most efficient method. The fact that you see a problem with a factory "sitting idle" means that you don't appreciate the important process of creative destruction and how this is a necessary part of actually improving the ability of the economy to more efficiently supply people's needs and wants with a scarce amount of resources.

Invisible hand does not solve every problem. It will not necessarily provide people with efficient healthcare, schooling, shelter, or even food. It will not necessarily supply communities with needed roads and modes of transportation. It will not necessarily do anything about the externalities of its production, such as destroying the environment. Sure--maybe I don't see Schumpeter's "creative destruction," that is partially because I also see these as preventable and irrational inefficiencies of the system. Take Anarchist Spain. Amid empty factories, workers did not simply wait for capitalists to let them return. Rather they just went to the factories themselves and started to produce. That was the creative--and voluntary--aspect, which capitalism all too often prevents.
I know you have nothing against them. My point is that you ignore them in societies that recognise the natural right of private property. They existed simultaneously. England itself had over 40,000 mutual aid societies covering a vast array of people simultaneously with a (relatively) Laissez-Faire economy. However, these mutual aid societies are fundamentally businesses whereby resources are put in to obtain a range of services. If you run them inefficiently (principally by not recognising the importance of economic calculation) then it is to the detriment of its members. They succeeded in England (and elsewhere) because they respected individual rights and especially property rights.

They could still exist today--but by and large it has be state welfare systems that have taken over this role, which has served to solidify a basic standard of living in advanced capitalist nations. Sure, these existed in places but it didn't change the fact that most people in England, during the 19th century, lived in slum-like standards, with long working hours, with little to know social benefits. I don't ignore these practices anymore than I ignore the fact that advanced capitalist societies also supply a social safety net.
This is a key point that Eran has been trying to get you to understand about any human activity. To truly know whether or not you are doing something efficiently or beneficial for people you need an efficient mechanism to communicate how efficiently and how beneficial and to be able to adjust accordingly. This mechanism is the fundamental thing missing from societies without private property rights. You simply cannot truly do the maximum good for the maximum number of people without it. If you truly care about bringing people out of poverty (which I presume you do) then you need to understand the real reasons why capitalism succeeded in places like Singapore and Hong Kong and not resort to hand-wavey "military conquest" or "massive exploitation of natural resources" reasons to dismiss the very real successes of England, America, Australia, etc.

To be sure, I have been talking about market socialism. There are price mechanisms in this system. The key difference is the socialization of the means of production and the democratizing of the workplace.

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