[Truth To Power]

TtP - Do you know that even in the uk one of the most densely populated and most desirable places to camp in the world, a place that is also at the peak of a decades long real estate asset bubble, you can buy an acre of land for just 5000 quid (that's about 7500 of your dollars)?

Sure: an acre that is far from the desirable services and infrastructure government provides and the desirable opportunities and amenities communities provide, and that is not even particularly well endowed with the desirable physical qualities nature provides... AND IT STILL COSTS 5000 QUID FOR WHAT NATURE PROVIDED FREE OF CHARGE. The greedy, evil, thieving parasite who owns that acre of land is charging someone else 5K for what government, the community and nature provide, while contributing nothing whatever in return.

You can buy a pretty decent car for 5000. Anywhere else in the world you can buy land for pocket money.

The value of land is the market's estimate of how much the owner will be able to steal from producers, consumers and taxpayers. In most places that is not very much. Similarly, in most places in the world, having a legal privilege of pocketing the locals' wages would not be worth very much.

So, I'm just trying to work out how the low value of being privileged to steal from the community in most parts of the world somehow makes it OK for rich, greedy, privileged parasites to steal trillions from the community in wealthier parts of the world. Can you help me out with that part of your "logic"?

So what is your problem?

I don't like privilege, injustice and evil, or the stupid lies that are always told to rationalize and justify them.

You should buy some land, in the US it is as cheap as chips, then you will see that all your frothy ideologising is pure bunkum.

I assume you are aware that the exact same "logic" was used to justify chattel slavery:

"You should buy some slaves, in the US they are as cheap as chips, then you will see that all your frothy ideologising is pure bunkum."

Hell I could tell you a way to gain freehold title to land without paying a penny to anyone. You interested?

I'm always interested in land-related scams, and gaining freehold title to land is always a scam.

Hell I could tell you a way to gain freehold title to land without paying a penny to anyone. You interested?

I'm waiting....

[SolarCross]

I'm waiting....

I don't know why I should bother, you will just call it a scam.

[Truth To Power]

I'm waiting....

I don't know why I should bother, you will just call it a scam. :?:

OK, so you were just bloviating in an attempt to avoid knowing the fact that it is the landowner who is the parasite, who does the taking, who steals from the productive and contributes nothing in return, and not, contrary to your claims, the government. You are also apparently still trying to avoid knowing the fact that it is government which in fact provides -- albeit almost entirely at the expense of producers and consumers -- the services and infrastructure that shovel money into landowners' pockets in return for nothing.

Thought so.

[SolarCross]

OK, so you were just bloviating in an attempt to avoid knowing the fact that it is the landowner who is the parasite, who does the taking, who steals from the productive and contributes nothing in return, and not, contrary to your claims, the government. You are also apparently still trying to avoid knowing the fact that it is government which in fact provides -- albeit almost entirely at the expense of producers and consumers -- the services and infrastructure that shovel money into landowners' pockets in return for nothing.

Thought so.

No, it is a real thing, I am familiar with the particularities of it for English Law but some equivalent should be present in any law system that deals with land ownership for the simple reason that inevitably some real estate will tend to fall out of ownership because the owners do not last forever and sometimes fail to pass it on to someone else before they perish. Over time this would result in more and more land becoming unowned from a legal perspective therefore to balance this the need arises for a legal way to bring unowned land back into legal ownership not least so that ownership becomes visible to the government and the taxman.

[quetzalcoatl]

No, it is a real thing, I am familiar with the particularities of it for English Law but some equivalent should be present in any law system that deals with land ownership for the simple reason that inevitably some real estate will tend to fall out of ownership because the owners do not last forever and sometimes fail to pass it on to someone else before they perish. Over time this would result in more and more land becoming unowned from a legal perspective therefore to balance this the need arises for a legal way to bring unowned land back into legal ownership not least so that ownership becomes visible to the government and the taxman.

As far as I understand, land doesn't go un-owned here in the states, not for long. Privately owned land is taxed, and if taxes are not paid, it is auctioned off. Once an owner becomes inactive in the maintenance of his legal title, the clock starts ticking.

[Truth To Power]

No, it is a real thing,

Then you should be able to support your claim. You haven't so far:

I am familiar with the particularities of it for English Law but some equivalent should be present in any law system that deals with land ownership for the simple reason that inevitably some real estate will tend to fall out of ownership because the owners do not last forever and sometimes fail to pass it on to someone else before they perish. Over time this would result in more and more land becoming unowned from a legal perspective therefore to balance this the need arises for a legal way to bring unowned land back into legal ownership not least so that ownership becomes visible to the government and the taxman.

See?

Everywhere I am aware of, land whose owners die intestate either goes to default heirs or reverts to public ownership, whence it may be auctioned off.

[SolarCross]

As far as I understand, land doesn't go un-owned here in the states, not for long. Privately owned land is taxed, and if taxes are not paid, it is auctioned off. Once an owner becomes inactive in the maintenance of his legal title, the clock starts ticking.

Ok, since it is you, I will tell you how one can acquire freehold title to land for free in the UK and if any frothy ideologists happen to earwig then oh well. Now it might also work in any common law country and there may be variant methods for countries that have a different basis for law. From what you say it may be possible in theory for the US but in practice very difficult if your governments are exceedingly efficient at picking up lost land for themselves to sell on. The US is a really big place though so I wonder if even with defaulting taxes giving the govs a early heads up on land becoming abandoned that they there are not loads of plots here and the existence of which they are unaware. I can only speak of the UK with any certainty so what I will say from here on will concern only the UK.

The UK does not have property taxes although possession of certain kinds of property put one in liability for some taxes: occupied and non-exempt residential properties are liable to pay council tax and occupied and non-exempt commercial properties should pay business rates, however since it is the occupier not the owner who is liable and it is often that the occupier is not the same person as the owner non-payment is not usually treated with confiscation but instead fines and prison sentences. So generally abandoned properties stay abandoned until some one claims them, this could be the local gov but it doesn't have to be, it could be you.

The method is more precisely called "title by adverse possession" and has been part of the legal canon of England for nearly a thousand years since King William the Conquorer decreed it into existence. Basically by occupying a property without the permission of the owner you can claim something called "possessory title" and after an arbitrary period of time defined by statute (currently 12 years, was just 6 months in King William's day) you can convert that possessory title into full freehold title or "paper title" if no one holding paper title to that property manages to evict you in that time. Paper title trumps possessory title in the eyes of the law and quite properly so, however if no one presents paper title for example the paper title holder emmigrated and forgot his property or died without willing it then possessory title wins and can be converted to paper title.

So that is the legal principle, in practice what you would do is scout around the areas you are interested in looking for any properties that look neglected: broken windows not repaired, overgrown gardens and similar. The try to find the paper title holder, consult the land registry, ask locals about who lived their and do your utmost to find this person. If after much researching you do not find the paper title or find out some information that would indicate he or she is definitely not going to come along and trump your claim, then you can proceed with confidence and simply take possession of the property. Fix it up and bold as brass make it your own, sit on it for twelve years and bingo you become a freeholder of the property. Simples.

[quetzalcoatl]

Ok, since it is you, I will tell you how one can acquire freehold title to land for free in the UK and if any frothy ideologists happen to earwig then oh well. Now it might also work in any common law country and there may be variant methods for countries that have a different basis for law. From what you say it may be possible in theory for the US but in practice very difficult if your governments are exceedingly efficient at picking up lost land for themselves to sell on. The US is a really big place though so I wonder if even with defaulting taxes giving the govs a early heads up on land becoming abandoned that they there are not loads of plots here and the existence of which they are unaware. I can only speak of the UK with any certainty so what I will say from here on will concern only the UK.

The UK does not have property taxes although possession of certain kinds of property put one in liability for some taxes: occupied and non-exempt residential properties are liable to pay council tax and occupied and non-exempt commercial properties should pay business rates, however since it is the occupier not the owner who is liable and it is often that the occupier is not the same person as the owner non-payment is not usually treated with confiscation but instead fines and prison sentences. So generally abandoned properties stay abandoned until some one claims them, this could be the local gov but it doesn't have to be, it could be you.

The method is more precisely called "title by adverse possession" and has been part of the legal canon of England for nearly a thousand years since King William the Conquorer decreed it into existence. Basically by occupying a property without the permission of the owner you can claim something called "possessory title" and after an arbitrary period of time defined by statute (currently 12 years, was just 6 months in King William's day) you can convert that possessory title into full freehold title or "paper title" if no one holding paper title to that property manages to evict you in that time. Paper title trumps possessory title in the eyes of the law and quite properly so, however if no one presents paper title for example the paper title holder emmigrated and forgot his property or died without willing it then possessory title wins and can be converted to paper title.

So that is the legal principle, in practice what you would do is scout around the areas you are interested in looking for any properties that look neglected: broken windows not repaired, overgrown gardens and similar. The try to find the paper title holder, consult the land registry, ask locals about who lived their and do your utmost to find this person. If after much researching you do not find the paper title or find out some information that would indicate he or she is definitely not going to come along and trump your claim, then you can proceed with confidence and simply take possession of the property. Fix it up and bold as brass make it your own, sit on it for twelve years and bingo you become a freeholder of the property. Simples.

Personally I wouldn't try it here without a real estate attorney. It's one thing to have a comprehension of the laws themselves and quite another thing to have the actual experience in how courts interpret and sheriffs enforce. But I guess it depends on how adventurous you are and how much time you have to spend in the county clerk's office.

There are investors who buy properties at county auction, but I's be willing to bet they have hired or partnered with legal expertise.

[Truth To Power]

Ok, since it is you, I will tell you how one can acquire freehold title to land for free in the UK and if any frothy ideologists happen to earwig then oh well. Now it might also work in any common law country and there may be variant methods for countries that have a different basis for law. From what you say it may be possible in theory for the US but in practice very difficult if your governments are exceedingly efficient at picking up lost land for themselves to sell on. The US is a really big place though so I wonder if even with defaulting taxes giving the govs a early heads up on land becoming abandoned that they there are not loads of plots here and the existence of which they are unaware. I can only speak of the UK with any certainty so what I will say from here on will concern only the UK.

So you were bloviating, and your method is only a theoretical possibility, and only in the UK, nowhere else.

Check.

The UK does not have property taxes although possession of certain kinds of property put one in liability for some taxes: occupied and non-exempt residential properties are liable to pay council tax and occupied and non-exempt commercial properties should pay business rates, however since it is the occupier not the owner who is liable and it is often that the occupier is not the same person as the owner non-payment is not usually treated with confiscation but instead fines and prison sentences. So generally abandoned properties stay abandoned until some one claims them, this could be the local gov but it doesn't have to be, it could be you.

When was the last time anyone got freehold title to land using your method?

The method is more precisely called "title by adverse possession" and has been part of the legal canon of England for nearly a thousand years since King William the Conquorer decreed it into existence. Basically by occupying a property without the permission of the owner you can claim something called "possessory title" and after an arbitrary period of time defined by statute (currently 12 years, was just 6 months in King William's day) you can convert that possessory title into full freehold title or "paper title" if no one holding paper title to that property manages to evict you in that time. Paper title trumps possessory title in the eyes of the law and quite properly so, however if no one presents paper title for example the paper title holder emmigrated and forgot his property or died without willing it then possessory title wins and can be converted to paper title.

So, about 1000 years ago...?

So that is the legal principle, in practice what you would do is scout around the areas you are interested in looking for any properties that look neglected: broken windows not repaired, overgrown gardens and similar. The try to find the paper title holder, consult the land registry, ask locals about who lived their and do your utmost to find this person. If after much researching you do not find the paper title or find out some information that would indicate he or she is definitely not going to come along and trump your claim, then you can proceed with confidence and simply take possession of the property. Fix it up and bold as brass make it your own, sit on it for twelve years and bingo you become a freeholder of the property. Simples.

And when was the last time anyone actually did it?

[SolarCross]

Personally I wouldn't try it here without a real estate attorney. It's one thing to have a comprehension of the laws themselves and quite another thing to have the actual experience in how courts interpret and sheriffs enforce. But I guess it depends on how adventurous you are and how much time you have to spend in the county clerk's office.

There are investors who buy properties at county auction, but I's be willing to bet they have hired or partnered with legal expertise.

The really key part to get right is to find a property that is genuinely abandoned, if you do then you shouldn't have to go to court at all (at least in the UK) just inform Her Majesties Land Registry after your ten years of occupation that you want paper title to the place, if they don't have a record of the property (allegedly about 1/3 of all the land in the UK is NOT registered), then for a small fee they will give you title to it and it is in the bag. If the property is registered with them they will try to contact the person they have down as paper title holder and if they do not get a reply from then in 2 years they presume it abandoned and give it to you.

Here is fairly recent example of this happening by accident that made it in the newspapers because the claimant was only a penniless tramp and the property he gained was worth millions of pounds:

Tramp given £2m Hampstead Heath plot after squatting on land for 20 years.

Harry Hallowes didn't even know about the law..

[Truth To Power]

The really key part to get right is to find a property that is genuinely abandoned, if you do then you shouldn't have to go to court at all (at least in the UK) just inform Her Majesties Land Registry after your ten years of occupation that you want paper title to the place, if they don't have a record of the property (allegedly about 1/3 of all the land in the UK is NOT registered), then for a small fee they will give you title to it and it is in the bag. If the property is registered with them they will try to contact the person they have down as paper title holder and if they do not get a reply from then in 2 years they presume it abandoned and give it to you.

Here is fairly recent example of this happening by accident that made it in the newspapers because the claimant was only a penniless tramp and the property he gained was worth millions of pounds:

Tramp given £2m Hampstead Heath plot after squatting on land for 20 years.

Harry Hallowes didn't even know about the law..

So in fact, your method IS a scam, and demonstrates with blinding clarity the absurd, grotesque, parasitic character of landowner privilege. You have to occupy the land for a decade so unproductively that the owners -- who are also not using it productively themselves -- don't realize you're even there. It is the exact opposite of Lockean land engrossment: you have to make sure you DON'T use the land productively, just occupy it so others can't use it.

Only in Britain...

[SolarCross]

quetzalcoatl one other thing is in case to some witless drain on society should tell you some lies about how you can't use your claimed land in some productive fashion, you can with the proviso that you probably could not develop the land until you get full title as until then it is not entirely proven to be yours so getting planning permission would not be possible. I would say using a property as a residence does count as a productive use also.

[Truth To Power]

quetzalcoatl one other thing is in case to some witless drain on society

It is the landowner who, qua landowner, is always a drain on society.

should tell you some lies about how you can't use your claimed land in some productive fashion,

Speaking of lies, I explicitly stated that you can use it productively -- just not so productively that the owner notices you are there.

you can with the proviso that you probably could not develop the land until you get full title

Develop it?? You can't even grow turnips on it if it would attract the owner's notice.

as until then it is not entirely proven to be yours

It's never validly yours, and therefore never proven to be yours, but may only be legally considered yours.

so getting planning permission would not be possible.

Irrelevant. You can't use it for any productive purpose that would attract the owner's attention.

I would say using a property as a residence does count as a productive use also.

Nope. Simple squatting or occupation of land is not productive, as one exists somewhere in any case. One can use land to produce accommodation, but the productivity of that use is measured by how much someone would pay for the accommodation, over and above the value of the location. Is this case, judging by the photos, that might be about 5 quid, which apparently took ~10 years to produce.

[Potemkin]

The point of this British (really Norman) law was actually to bring land into productive use. After all, if a landowner doesn't even notice that someone has been living on their land or using their land for more than a decade, then it's highly unlikely that that landowner is making any productive use of it. Therefore, the law may as well give it to someone who will use it productively. William the Conqueror wanted to maximise the tax revenues from his newly conquered domain - this, after all, was the motivation behind his compilation of the Doomsday Book - and he came up with this new law as an effective way of doing just that. After all, you can't tax land effectively unless it's being used in an economically productive manner. A landowner who is just sitting on his land - to the extent of not even knowing who's living on it or using it - is useless to the authorities as a source of tax revenue.

[Truth To Power]

The point of this British (really Norman) law was actually to bring land into productive use.

Possibly. It's certainly not a very effective way to do so.

After all, if a landowner doesn't even notice that someone has been living on their land or using their land for more than a decade, then it's highly unlikely that that landowner is making any productive use of it.

But that assumes a feudal model of land tenure. William may not have known any better, but today we do.

Therefore, the law may as well give it to someone who will use it productively. William the Conqueror wanted to maximise the tax revenues from his newly conquered domain - this, after all, was the motivation behind his compilation of the Doomsday Book - and he came up with this new law as an effective way of doing just that.

It isn't very effective, as we see from the guy with the tarp house.

After all, you can't tax land effectively unless it's being used in an economically productive manner.

OTC, plenty of jurisdictions levy effective taxes on vacant, unused land. The fact is rather that taxing land effectively is the best way to ensure it IS being -- or will soon be -- used in an economically productive manner.

A landowner who is just sitting on his land - to the extent of not even knowing who's living on it or using it - is useless to the authorities as a source of tax revenue.

Not at all, as proved by the billions of dollars in property tax revenue obtained from the owners of vacant, unused plots. As long as the landowner knows he must pay up or lose the land, he'll pay, or someone else will get the land. The problem is purely with insufficient taxation of such land to motivate productive use: if the tax rate is 1%, and the land reliably appreciates at 5%, what is the owner's motive to do anything productive with it? The community will just keep shoveling money into his pockets indefinitely anyway, as long as he holds onto it.