Gun regulations and libertarianism - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Classical liberalism. The individual before the state, non-interventionist, free-market based society.
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#14880224
Pants-of-dog wrote:I would go farther and say that the working class should have all the same weapons that the government has, including tanks, artillery, and weapons of mass destruction. And the reason for this is, as you say, to constitute a revolutionary check on the government.


Sure, why not? A Militia with a separate and independent command structure from the military Federal Government, with men universally armed in the home much as they are in say, Switzerland and properly trained and organized by their State, county, and city, is exactly what is truly implied by the US Constitution.

One of the best ideas I've seen from you in a while, thanks!
#14880230
Thanks VS, you said that;

Fascinating and Oddly consistent.


Well, I do get that reaction sometimes, lol...

I am curious though, would you support a violent revolution? Or would you prefer a non-violent resistance sort of approach.


I support violent ''Revolution'' when it isn't really revolution, when a government has either descended into anarchy or tyranny and thus has ceased to legally exist, withdrawn it's protection from it's citizens, etc... And is thus no government. Aside from those circumstances, I advocate a kind of ''Passive Obedience'' under most circumstances, obedience to all government in all things except sin when following the laws, by omission or commission.

What is your view of Just-War theory? I have heard that many Eastern theologians oppose St. Augustine's formulation, but it seems hard for Christians to justify violent revolution without it as theological construct.


Blessed Augustine as he is known in Orthodoxy has a more juridical formulation of Just War than many Fathers have, but it's the same theology at heart. The State has the right to go to war to protect the subjects under it's care, and in the absence of the State, one is formed to restrain the wicked, ideally in mutual Harmonia with the Church.

If the Orthodox faith outright opposed revolution under the terms i've mentioned previously, than the Book of Maccabees would not have been included in Scripture, ditto with having a Republic...

Thanks.


No problem!
#14880374
Sure, why not? A Militia with a separate and independent command structure from the military Federal Government, with men universally armed in the home much as they are in say, Switzerland and properly trained and organized by their State, county, and city, is exactly what is truly implied by the US Constitution.

One of the best ideas I've seen from you in a while, thanks!


Sounds nice doesn't it. Too bad the very notion is idiotic. (You really need to understand the Swiss thing by the way. You clearly do not.)

I will not descend into an argument that imagines a city militia. We already have that. It is called the police. We also have a state Armed force. It is called the National Guard. It is going to be really fun when the city of Tucson tries to figure out how to pay for a tank and a few fighter jets. We have seen, throughout the world, what has happened when armed civilians have challenged a modern Army like ours. The are mowed down like a wheat field. And that is with reasonable people who care about civilian casualties in charge. Remove that distinction and they would stand no chance if they wanted to see their children alive in the morning.

Back when wars were fought in a five mile per hour world, in a wilderness of open country with single shot weapons the notion of the local minuteman as a stopping force had validity. Today not.

Let me violate Godwin's law and make this point. An armed populace would not have prevented Hitler's rise to power. He was wildly popular with the people. These potential militiamen you rely on flocked to his banner. There was little or no armed resistance in Nazi Germany. This is true today in the US. The government has no trouble raising an army. Men flock to the army particularly in time of trouble.

Libertards imagine some time when 'liberals' or 'communists' would rise to subjugate the people. What they never imagine is that in their very neighborhood there are a great many people who would rise to oppose them. Look at our overheated political divide today. Imagine a war in which the forces of the right opposed the forces of the 'leftish'. (We really have no appreciable left.) Democrats outnumber republicans. Democrats hold the property that produces most of the guns and other weapons. Think about it. Look at our own civil war. The South never had a chance. The north controlled the means to produce arms and ammunition.

The right-wing and libertarian pipe dream about sitting around the campfire in some woods somewhere and plotting to confront the despot's advancing army with their store-bought assault weapons is just that. An unrealistic pipe dream. Their technologically advanced and well trained opponents would swat them like flies. There is nowhere they could hide. And the only place they could reasonably expect to stymie a modern army is in the cities. Care to guess how libertarians are represented in cities?

Time to grow up gun owners. You are never going to grab your glock and stare down a tank. Nor is your town going to have one of its own. Welcome to the real world.

Your best hope is to dismantle the kleptocracy that is running Washington now and get your power back by the vote. That is, at least for the time, within the realm of possibility.
#14880412
Sarcasm noted.

Without the access to advanced satellites, the most sophisticate air defense weapons, and at least theater nukes tanks will do them no good at all. As we say in the Army, "A moving foxhole attracts the eye". Tanks are just targets for helicopters. Fun to shoot but not much challenge.

To oppose a technologically advance army like the US or UK, they would need some sort of Navy as well. Otherwise the advanced army can just establish a bullet proof production, training and marshaling facilities beyond targeting. And cut off all supplies to these neighborhood defenders.

Now I wonder what the Russians would do while we are shooting each other up? Take Europe and the Chinese take Asia and Africa. Little to stop them unless Europe is willing to use nukes in defense. Or get their conventional shit together.

This is fun. It rankles libertarians (always a good idea) and points to the stupidity of the argument that Bills pistol deters the US Army.
#14880429
annatar1914 wrote:Sure, why not? A Militia with a separate and independent command structure from the military Federal Government, with men universally armed in the home much as they are in say, Switzerland and properly trained and organized by their State, county, and city, is exactly what is truly implied by the US Constitution.
...

(Switzerland is tiny in comparison and has more legal control. )
What would you expect to happen if a civil war befalls US?
I mean such happens here and there on the globe, particularly in societies with high inequality as well as easy access to arms.
If a civil war should ever come over US there will be a plenty of fuel for it.
#14880431
Sounds nice doesn't it. Too bad the very notion is idiotic. (You really need to understand the Swiss thing by the way. You clearly do not.)


Far from ''idiotic'' my friend, as I will attempt to show somewhat to anyone non male fide. And as I do know some persons from Switzerland who know of these matters, I can say at least that I can speak to the matter with intelligibility, if not absolute authority.

I will not descend into an argument that imagines a city militia. We already have that. It is called the police.


They're not a city militia, everyone knows that, most of all the police.


We also have a state Armed force. It is called the National Guard.


Too Federalized in recent years, that needs to be changed.


It is going to be really fun when the city of Tucson tries to figure out how to pay for a tank and a few fighter jets.


You assume that they would need them.

We have seen, throughout the world, what has happened when armed civilians have challenged a modern Army like ours.


Yes, the total inability to defeat a single insurgency in it's modern history speaks volumes about the modern US Military. And in this hypothetical case, many of the Soldiers would be sympathetic to an American popular revolt. See? I'm not talking about the feckless and stupid Libertarians....


The are mowed down like a wheat field. And that is with reasonable people who care about civilian casualties in charge. Remove that distinction and they would stand no chance if they wanted to see their children alive in the morning.


Again, see above. Any Tyrant would have to have their ''American'' military composed mainly of people who don't really consider themselves Americans, and I have doubts about the military effectiveness of such peoples, historically speaking.

Back when wars were fought in a five mile per hour world, in a wilderness of open country with single shot weapons the notion of the local minuteman as a stopping force had validity. Today not.


The ''validity'' rests on the right of a free people to resist unlawful tyranny, not on the technics which can be overcome.

Let me violate Godwin's law and make this point. An armed populace would not have prevented Hitler's rise to power. He was wildly popular with the people. These potential militiamen you rely on flocked to his banner. There was little or no armed resistance in Nazi Germany. This is true today in the US. The government has no trouble raising an army. Men flock to the army particularly in time of trouble.


The American military has a severe problem doing all it tries to do all over the world, which is precisely why they went all volunteer though. A revolt would have no problems raising an army of men, conversely.

Libertards imagine some time when 'liberals' or 'communists' would rise to subjugate the people. What they never imagine is that in their very neighborhood there are a great many people who would rise to oppose them. Look at our overheated political divide today. Imagine a war in which the forces of the right opposed the forces of the 'leftish'. (We really have no appreciable left.) Democrats outnumber republicans. Democrats hold the property that produces most of the guns and other weapons. Think about it. Look at our own civil war. The South never had a chance. The north controlled the means to produce arms and ammunition.


The South made strategic mistakes which doomed the outcome of the initial conflict for them.

The right-wing and libertarian pipe dream about sitting around the campfire in some woods somewhere and plotting to confront the despot's advancing army with their store-bought assault weapons is just that. An unrealistic pipe dream. Their technologically advanced and well trained opponents would swat them like flies. There is nowhere they could hide. And the only place they could reasonably expect to stymie a modern army is in the cities. Care to guess how libertarians are represented in cities?


Again, I'm talking about a popular/popularist revolt, not a ''libertarian pipe dream''

Time to grow up gun owners. You are never going to grab your glock and stare down a tank. Nor is your town going to have one of its own. Welcome to the real world.

Your best hope is to dismantle the kleptocracy that is running Washington now and get your power back by the vote. That is, at least for the time, within the realm of possibility.[/quote]
#14880434
hartmut wrote:(Switzerland is tiny in comparison and has more legal control. )
What would you expect to happen if a civil war befalls US?
I mean such happens here and there on the globe, particularly in societies with high inequality as well as easy access to arms.
If a civil war should ever come over US there will be a plenty of fuel for it.


Collapses are never pretty, and when America implodes, the world order it maintains is also going to collapse. We're in fact seeing this now. In the time of the coming resource wars and ''Peak Oil'', arms for personal defense is not a bad idea.
#14880439
That must explain why I have the smallest gun in the world. :excited:

Pants-of-dog wrote::roll:

Do you have an argument or are you just memeing these days?


You don't have an argument, though. Trump is sewer sludge, but it's silly to call him a neo-Nazi and it diminishes the meaning of the term.
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