[FCP]

So what's it going to take to end this conflict? Will Russia have to grant Chechnya the sovreignty many wish? Or will this become, if it isn't already, a war of attrition? Will Russia ever be able to gain control over "lawless" North Caucasia? Stalin couldn't wipe them out, can Putin quash them? Why does no one give a $hit? Bigger "fish to fry" than to take serious issue with Russia on this matter? Are the Chechens not Arab enough for Muslims to care? Not enough startegic interests involved to matter for anyone outside the region?

[Putinist]

Oh boy, I knew Chechnya was gonna come up.

Basically the conflict in Chechnya, which is Kremlin-engineered for necessary purposes, is going to rage on and on, probably until America's last hours before the Russian strike. It will not be resolved. It served its purpose in 1994 and 1996, and is still doing so now in 2003.

Judging by some of his speeches though, I would expect Putin to finish what Stalin started, and purge Chechnya altogether, along with other Russian Muslims. They have the capability of doing that now, but, in the words of that Russian general (whose name I have appropriately name-forgotten ) speaking at the turn of the Millennium about the possibility of burying Lenin's beleaguered body; "We have someone else to bury first".

[Adrien]

I'm not an expert about this war (because, as you pointed out, our medias don't give a damn about it --> ratings ratings... grr) but from what i know the Russians have nothing to gain in this war, and they really should grant them their independance.

[Putinist]

I'm not an expert about this war (because, as you pointed out, our medias don't give a damn about it --> ratings ratings... grr) but from what i know the Russians have nothing to gain in this war, and they really should grant them their independance.

Oh... I'm not sure about that. But put it this way; from the war in Chechnya, the Russians will have, as Marx himself so often said, "the world to gain".

[Noumenon]

I really don't know much of anything about Chechnya, could someone describe to me the current situation there? All I know is that the've been fighting for independence since the USSR broke up, theres oil there, and Chechnyan terrorists were responsible for the terrorism in that Moscow theater. Is terrorism a major part of that conflict, or is it only guerilla warfare?

[FCP]

I don't really know alot about it either, but apparently, there is a very strategic oil pipeline that runs from the Caspian Sea in Azerbijan into Russia, that goes directly through Chechnya, and the Russians are very interested in maintaining control of it. Furthermore, they do not want the Chechens setting an example for other people(Ingushetia, Tatarstan, Daghestan, etc.) about how to gain independence through insurrection. The Russians are afraid of losing their territorial integrity, and facing an insurrection from within, if the Chechens should be sucessful. Beyond that the conflict really has been going on for a couple hundred years, the Tsars conquered the region back in 1858, as they expanded their empire to counteract the threat of the Ottoman empire. In the first war, during which 100,000 people were killed, it was mainly a war for national independence. However during the late 90's wacky Wahabi's came into the picture and stirred up Islamic fundamentalism in the region. Thus alot of the people who have become involved in the conflict are religious fanatics. In fact one of the leading commanders who was killed a year or so ago was a Jordanian or Saudi "Wahabi".

[Putinist]

All I know is that the've been fighting for independence since the USSR broke up, theres oil there, and Chechnyan terrorists were responsible for the terrorism in that Moscow theater.

The USSR "broke-up"?! When did this happen?!:?:

http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1138

[Proctor]

The USSR "broke-up"?! When did this happen?!

1991 if I remember rightly.

[Adrien]

The Russians are afraid of losing their territorial integrity, and facing an insurrection from within, if the Chechens should be sucessful.

I understand that, but it's not like if a section of Russia itself tried to become independant (like we have in Corsica or like the Spanish have in Catalunya): here it's one of those "independant republics" who is trying to become a true independant republic.

Is the CIS making one of the mistake that led the USSR to its end?

[Putinist]

Is the CIS making one of the mistake that led the USSR to its end?

What "end"?

[Ymir]

The Chechens are not the problem. THe problem is muslim immigrant radicals trying to force their religion on the russian people. This has been going on for centuries. The russian government needs to resolve this immigrancy problem. I think the problem lies within the Arab nations and their radical ideology. If Europe wants to stop the tension in eastern europe and the caucasus they should beat the Arabs back.

[Boondock Saint]

If Europe wants to stop the tension in eastern europe and the caucasus they should beat the Arabs back.

I thought the Muslims in Chechnya werent Arab ... I know there are some 'freedom fighters' or 'terrorists' of arab descent ... but surely this handful of fighters arent the reason Chechnya is calling for its independence ...

[Ymir]

The clashing cultures of Russia and the invading culture of Arabia are clashing in Chechnya, the same way they clash in the Balkans. Just as the Balkans are the powder-keg of Europe, Chechnya is the powder-keg of Russia. This tension is the result of the Arab expansion.

B.S., the 'Russian' Chechens would not want independence if they were truly Russian. Some have inherited an arabic culture and religion and are pushing for the conquest of Russia. Chechnya does not wish for independence, the radicals do.

The Chechen rebels are radical Islamists. They bury their dead with a traditional pole on the grave. They wear heavy beards etc., these are not "Russian" men.

My point is that this conflict is because of Arabs...Islam is not some random religion that pops up anywhere on the globe.

[Boondock Saint]

My point is that this conflict is because of Arabs...Islam is not some random religion that pops up anywhere on the globe.

The Chechen rebels are radical Islamists. They bury their dead with a traditional pole on the grave. They wear heavy beards etc., these are not "Russian" men.

Arabs with heavy beards eh?

*I had pics of Chechyns here but ... they were way too big *

LINK

If you want to blame Muslims fine. But its not an arab thing. The arab Muslims may be helping the non-arab Muslims but to blame arabs in such a way ... seems folly to me.

[Putinist]

If you want to blame Muslims fine. But its not an arab thing. The arab Muslims may be helping the non-arab Muslims but to blame arabs in such a way ... seems folly to me.

One of the Muslims who took the hostages in last October's infamous theatre seige had come from Arabia to help out his "brothers". They are getting outside help.

[FCP]

June 6, 2003 1:34 PM

Explosion in apartment building in Chechnya

An explosion in an apartment building has killed at least eleven people in the Chechen capital, Grozny.
A government official says it is not clear whether the explosion was a terrorist attack or the result of a natural gas leak.
The incident follows a suicide bombing near the Russian military headquarters directing the war in Chechnya.
On Thursday, at least 19 people were killed when a militant blew up a bus in southern Russia.


And Putin says that he has everything under control!

They bury their dead with a traditional pole on the grave. They wear heavy beards etc., these are not "Russian" men.

There certainly are some Arabs that are invovled in the conflict, and the Wahabi ideology is certainly not a traditional Chechen one, as we all know where it came from, Saudi Arabia. Furthermore, one of the main leaders, who was killed by Russian special forces within the last year or so, was an Arab -- al-Khattab. That being said, the relative number of Arabs involved is relatively low, and most of those men with "heavy beards" you see running around in fact are "Russian men" if you accept the "jus soli" -- right of soil -- as a principle in defining nationality. If you believe that in order to be Russian one must have nice white Orthodox Slavic skin then I guess their -- the Chechens -- not Russian. However, such a belief may contribute, to a certain extent, towards why they want independence. Ironicly, many Arabs are reluctant to support the "cause" because the Chechens aren't perceived as Arab enough.

[Putinist]

June 6, 2003 1:34 PM

Explosion in apartment building in Chechnya

An explosion in an apartment building has killed at least eleven people in the Chechen capital, Grozny.
A government official says it is not clear whether the explosion was a terrorist attack or the result of a natural gas leak.
The incident follows a suicide bombing near the Russian military headquarters directing the war in Chechnya.
On Thursday, at least 19 people were killed when a militant blew up a bus in southern Russia.


And Putin says that he has everything under control!

The question now is whether this was a genuine Chechen terrorist attack or yet another KGB-committed bomb blast to increase the support of their leader.

In this particular case I think the former.

[FCP]

Well Mr. Putin's popularity, apparently, is pretty high for someone who had a large part of his election campaign based on quashing the Chechen situation. I question how effective he has been.

[Ymir]

"If you want to blame Muslims fine. But its not an arab thing. The arab Muslims may be helping the non-arab Muslims but to blame arabs in such a way ... seems folly to me."

Islam originates in Arabia and has spread into North Africa, Anatolia, Afghanistan, and the Caucasus. The source of the problem lay in Arabia, because that is the strongest center of Islam. Like I said, Islam does not randomly appear within populations, it occurs because of traveling or migrating muslim tribes settle in regions.

I am not saying it is their race that makes them a problem, it is their culture. The Arabs have been exporting their culture into other regions, and due to it's radical nature often alienates the populations and starts conflicts like the one in Chechnya.

If Russia wanted to end this problem, it would try to Russify the Chechen people.

[Putinist]

If Russia wanted to end this problem, it would try to Russify the Chechen people.

Yes indeed. After all, it worked well for the Soviets in Bulgaria in the 1970s and 1980s - wherein they tried to "Bulgarise" the Turks who lived on the Edirne border, and has the Kazakhs. The Dagestanis will soon follow suit.