Compare Your Country to the USA: Informational (Jab) - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Ongoing wars and conflict resolution, international agreements or lack thereof. Nationhood, secessionist movements, national 'home' government versus internationalist trends and globalisation.

Moderator: PoFo Political Circus Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#13903394
"Lazy ass fucks" in Mexico work way harder than you do. Illegal "lazy ass fuck" immigrants work harder than you do.


You seem to be confusing the issue. Working hard and working hard to gain a particular goal is not the same beast.

1. I disagree. I am no soft white collar corporate worker behind a desk. Never have been.

I work 16 to 18 hour days. I have worked some of the toughest jobs I know off and done so shoulder to shoulder with Mexican workers. Those workers do work hard, but to say they worked harder, no. On an individual case to case, maybe but as a blanket comment no.

I have been to Mexico City, I have lived and worked that side of the border. Sneaking over the fence, rather than working hard to improve your life, in one way or another, is being lazy. It is also unfair to those who worked hard to get where they wanted to be within the same system.


2. Sure. The product of that hard work should allow them to change their lives if they wish to do so. Sneaking into a Country does not make for hard work...

Hard work, dedication, whatever you want to call it, people have options, those people have options.

What one man can do, another man can do.
#13903402
Replies to my post have been:

"I proudly masturbate over my flag. It beats reading books!"

And:

"Of course you get to choose where you're born! Everybody is given the chance to move everywhere on the planet whenever they feel like it, and we live under some dystopian feudal system where the decisions of your ancestors are actually your decisions!"

This is exactly why nationalism is all so much contradictory rubbish. If glanced at for more than a second without short-stroking to your imagined reflection in a mirror, it doesn't make any damned sense.
#13903464
KFlint wrote:Also I did not say it was YOUR choice, I said it was their choice and thus, not an accident.


Ah, it was just a strawman argument with no relevance to anything then. Fine. We both agree that you didn't do anything exist in the country that you happened to be born in. Congratulations, you must be very proud of yourself for randomly existing in a country.

KFlint wrote:Also, making the decision to stay or go IS ones choice, and yes people are free to come and go as they please...


Sweet. I'm off to Germany then.








Wait, that didn't work. I guess I could get a visa, as the German government's permission to come over, see what kind of Visa I can get, get the money to pay a company to bring me over there, then save up the funds to eat, drink, and have shelter there...

...Wait a second, not everybody could afford that! And the government still has the right to kick you out or not let you in in the first place!

It's almost as if not everyone can made a decision to stay or go. But you said that everybody gets to choose where they want to stay and go. Do I believe the guy that started the troll thread on the internet, or reality?

Why [doesn't nationalism make any damned sense]?


You did nothing. You, like every other living thing, happens to be alive. That's it.

The whole concept is bankrupt. What do you call someone of European descent speaking a European language, wearing European clothes, practicing a European language, in a European constructed building, in a European designed city, using European economics? An American.

Then you can go further.

I have an American passport. Because I'm an Oregonian, but nationalists want me to put the former first. Fine. Oregon was its own country, part of Spain, part of Russia, part of England, part of the Chinook Confederacy, the Nez Pierce's land. I'm supposed to feel really special because some assholes I can't name, that have been long dead, 7,000 miles away in a London drawing room signed a treaty that drew a line on one of their maps.

Nobody that lived here at the time, of any race, creed, or ethnicity, had any say in the matter.

But since I'm related to someone that happened to be standing on land where this thing happened, now it's all THESE COLORS DON'T RUN! Because Boston patriots were fighting for themselves and had no conception of wherever I live now?

Why one identity over the other? My grandparents were ESL Germans—American citizens themselves, the result of illegal immigration. But living in a town that was picked up and brought over that completely ignored the US and continued to just live in Germany somewhere else. My other grandparents weren't even in the US. When they were, they came over and ignored the laws of the land living in a community with people from the old country ignoring prohibition, labor laws, wars, and anything else the US was up to.

My parents happened to be in Oregon when I was born. Oregon was part of the US. Now I'm supposed to be some fucknut that has an identity based on what? NASCAR and Budweiser? No American will tell you that—and if they did, the sad truth is that they're watching Japanese versions of German inventions go in circles while drinking Belgian beer. When you try to break down what it means to be an American then and you end up with these divergent ideas and tales that have nothing in particular to do with the United States, but the human experience in general. I tend to get along better with Armenians than I do Texans. Does that mean I'm Armenian?

Anything you can think of as defining national identity is bullshit. I can think of two exceptions.

You're proud of where you were born because it's a socially constructed unit that has no basis in reality. You're no better than a Mexican, a Peruvian, or any other damned thing.

Take off the training wheels and be a man without feeling like you have to be a bottom for Uncle Sam/Union Jack/Whoever the fuck. Stand on your own, stand with the internationalists.
#13903505
Ah, it was just a strawman argument with no relevance to anything then. Fine. We both agree that you didn't do anything exist in the country that you happened to be born in. Congratulations, you must be very proud of yourself for randomly existing in a country.
No strawman, I show that ones parents had a choice, thus the place of birth was not an accident.

Also I HAVE a choice, I have made mine. I choose to be an American, even though other options are open to me, so again not an accident...


Sweet. I'm off to Germany then.
Have fun.

Wait, that didn't work. I guess I could get a visa, as the German government's permission to come over, see what kind of Visa I can get, get the money to pay a company to bring me over there, then save up the funds to eat, drink, and have shelter there...

...Wait a second, not everybody could afford that! And the government still has the right to kick you out or not let you in in the first place!

It's almost as if not everyone can made a decision to stay or go. But you said that everybody gets to choose where they want to stay and go. Do I believe the guy that started the troll thread on the internet, or reality?
That is called working for a goal... get a work visa or set up with a company that will do it for you, or, or, or...

Opposition to ones goals is a hindrance, no more. People have been migrating to new Countries for a long, long time and many with nothing but the clothes on their back.

Not such a great argument.

You did nothing. You, like every other living thing, happens to be alive. That's it.
That is only true if you DO nothing, for those who do...

Not such a great argument.

My parents happened to be in Oregon when I was born. Oregon was part of the US. Now I'm supposed to be some fucknut that has an identity based on what? NASCAR and McDonalds?
Only if you see that as being American, I do not.

No American will tell you that, but then try to break down what it means to be an American then and you end up with these divergent ideas and tales that have nothing in particular to do with the United States, but the human experience in general.
If that was true, than all places with Humans would follow the basic ideals of freedom and equality. So...

Not such a great argument.

Past that, there are a great majority of people who could break down what it is, for them, that America stands for and thus what it is to be an American.

You're proud of where you were born because it's a socially constructed unit that has no basis in reality.
This only works if it was an accident that you are still here, as I am an American by choice, it has nothing to do with birth and thus your logic is flawed.

Stand on your own, stand with the internationalists.
Ignoring the fact that by route, if I am standing with the internationalists...I would not be standing on my own.

What does that mean to you? There is no world court, no open borders and no International agenda to bring equality to all citizens of Earth. Though I would be an advocate of such, just as I am an advocate of the North American Union.


Anything you can think of as defining national identity is bullshit.
This is why you have no National, pride, identity, responsibility. By not having those things, it seems, that you are unable to fathom those who do and that those things are not inherently bad.

One does not need to have a blind faith, my eyes are open.
One does not need to follow blindly, not when they can lead.
One does not need to celebrate an abstract happening such as birth, not when they chose their Nationality.

I would suggest that your and my definitions of patriotism and National pride, are significantly different. Your argument shows that, the question is... are you of an open mind, to such a degree, that you can step back and see another point of view?

You're no better than a Mexican, a Peruvian, or any other damned thing.


True, as I see all people as equals. Though I do not see all Countries, nor the ideals of those Countries, as being equal. So where I do not see myself, or any other American, as being better than say, a Peruvian, or a Mexican, I can and will say that I see America as being a better Country for its Citizens, than either Peru or Mexico.

The world is segmented, thus people are different, borders are in place. Regardless of what you, or I want, that is a fact. That being fact, one needs to take care of their own home and have more loyalty to that home, in larger increments than for others not associated with them.

Now you may argue that, but do you work for free? Would you work to give all, or an equal share of all you make to others? Will you take the food from your families mouths and feed another family at their expense?

I wont. Nor do I feel I need to do so. Giving away your work or hard earned payment helps no one, at least not in the long run.

I can, will and do help others and at times put myself out in the process.

The point is this.

America works to bring equality and to offer peace and stability as it is able. Not everyone agrees with that, that is their right after all.

I would say it was the case and in the ways it is not, I would help change them so it becomes true.


What is it to be American?

For me, as I see it.

An American is free to rise above their birth and can stand shoulders high, side by side with others, from all walks of life and from all Countries. That is a great thing, freedom. Americans by birth or by immigration, can make their life in the shape they want it.

Do they need to follow laws, sure. Is that bad, no.

Do other Countries offer the same basic principles of freedom, citizenship and possibilities?

Maybe, but I am not concerned with those "other" places. Why? Because this is about being an American, right?

I can list our liberties and freedoms and sing praises, but you know them. Let us just say that there is not an over abundant amount of Countries that are as free and as tolerant as that of the USA.
#13903512
If George Bush did nothing else, he deserves to be forced to grow a fucking tail so we can all yank on it everytime someone waves our flag for stupid reasons.

I understand nationalism very, very well. So do certain interests in the country. Those interests require manpower in order to carry out their wishes. So they do and say shit which people who appear to have very little simple self-pride in their own accomplishments seem to buy hook, line, and sinker.

"Hey, if I'm Mer'can, it doesn't matter that my life is spent in wage slavery, a nd hey, giving my labor to my nation certainly isn't enough to 'prove' my loyalty to this social construct-- especially b'because no other place in the world has concrete, electricity, indoor plumbing, and drywall-- so I should enlist in the army and kill darkies so the people telling me I owe the country something just because I was born in it can sell excess commodiites to other darkies."

Then, as if all that isn't enough, we're supposed to place... according to these certain interests, a higher value on those who DO join up and serve this imperialist force than we do all other citizens simply because they risked their lives to kill other people I'd just as soon see alive myself.

:eh:

Really?

Ribbing someone else is one thing. Giving someone shit is another thing, and this I have no issue with either. But almost requiring everyone else to buy into the nationalist sentiment in order not to symbolically forfeit their citizenship?

:knife:
#13903518
I am with you Demo, I am.

All those negatives and the machine that runs it, they need to be fixed. Yet there is a past that.

By that I mean, there are aspects to the ideal that have worth and that promote social acceptance, humanitarian aid and the basic principle of freedom and democracy.

I understand your stance... I am just not as jaded as you seem to be.
#13903527
KFlint wrote:I work 16 to 18 hour days. I have worked some of the toughest jobs I know off and done so shoulder to shoulder with Mexican workers. Those workers do work hard, but to say they worked harder, no. On an individual case to case, maybe but as a blanket comment no.


Only loser working class humans work that long. You live in a $14 trillion dollar economy and you cannot find a decent job, I have no sympathy towards you.
#13903554
Thompson_NCL wrote:The EU can field 2190 combat aircraft, which is nearly twice as many as Russia. So it seems logical we'll have air supremacy. The Russians do have more MBT's, but mostly T70's and T80's. They won't stand up against French, British and German MBT's, especially if we're bombing the crap out of them from the air. They'd not even get through Poland!

You're living in 1960 or something I think.


Spoken like a genuine uninformed desk jockey Thompson old bean. Ummmmm the Russians don't have any 'T-70s' because they NEVER EXISTED. The Modernized T-72Bs, T80UMs, T-90s will do just fine and considering their numbers and the superiority of the Russian soldier over the EU's soldiers (exception UK).

Do you think the mighty EU will dominate the air? Think again the EU has mostly obsolete shit and some new shit but not much of it.

Just one example, The UK
Tornado GR4 Introduction 1979 number in service 125 (~75% ready)
Typhoon F2 of the RAF Nice bird but You've only got 86 of them

That's quite an air armada!


Thompson_NCL wrote:They won't stand up against French, British and German MBT's


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: They don't have to be as sexy when you have a 5 to one superiority in numbers.

And then there is this T-90
#13903557
the nationalism on this thread is getting way out of hand, not just the america lovers but everybody else that just randomly hates every aspect of another land mass are really just the same.

one piece of land is the same as any other and responding like everybody has been is both a sign of your own nationalism and really just exacerbates the other side.
#13903598
I'm skipping most of the response since it was glorified hippy clap-trap about you being able to do anything that you want to do as long as you believe in yourself enough. A child soldier in Kongo can't just decide that he's going to live in Beverly Hills, work hard enough, and then get a house next to Barbara Streisand.

KFlint wrote:I would suggest that your and my definitions of patriotism and National pride, are significantly different. Your argument shows that, the question is... are you of an open mind, to such a degree, that you can step back and see another point of view?


I'm a materialist. Nationalism is something that's completely made up. That doesn't mean that there wasn't once a progressive useful role for the idea to play, but then there wasn't a degree of imperialism and monopoly as there is now. Any actual, tangible advantage to such ideas no longer serve any purpose or reason - nationalism is just left there like a big limp dick for people to kneel in homage to.

The world is segmented


It is not. I'm wearing pants made from materials from Africa, put together by an Asian, shipped by a European, and sold by an American. This has been pretty much true since right after the Columbian exchange.

, thus people are different


They are not in any meaningful respect that would justify nationalism as something that actually has a merit to be spoken of.

borders are in place.


Borders are ideas that people a long time ago in a room thousands of miles agreed upon and then politely informed everybody of. They do not actually exist.

America works to bring equality and to offer peace and stability as it is able. Not everyone agrees with that, that is their right after all.


You yourself would have to admit that there's at least a single exception to the statement. In which case, the argument falls apart as everybody tries (or justifies) their actions as such.

What is it to be American?

For me, as I see it...


And more touchy-feely feelings.

A nation exists because you feel like it does. As I mentioned, I'm not interested in glorified hippy clap-trap.
#13903606
mikema63 wrote:one piece of land is the same as any other
True.

Nationalism is not about a piece of land, a Nation is composed of its people, ideals and core values. In both specific terms and in general, a Nation is a social construct created by and fostered by the people that it represents. In that definition one finds the very basis of what National Identity is and should be.

TIG wrote:I'm not interested in glorified hippy clap-trap.

Borders are ideas that people a long time ago in a room thousands of miles agreed upon and then politely informed everybody of. They do not actually exist.
You must be, otherwise why continue to pursue this debate? It is also evident that you must be interested in glorified hippy clap-trap, or you would not have made the above comment about borders.

They are there, try to ignore it all you want, that is a good way to get shot. It is a lot like God, you do not need to believe in borders, they believe in you.


The world is segmented


It is not. I'm wearing pants made from materials from Africa, put together by an Asian, shipped by a European, and sold by an American. This has been pretty much true since right after the Columbian exchange.
It IS segmented, if it was not, you would not need to make specific distinctions between Africa, America, Asian and Europe...


A child soldier in Kongo can't just decide that he's going to live in Beverly Hills, work hard enough, and then get a house next to Barbara Streisand.
Nope, no magic genie to come save the day. Yet, with hard work and dedication that same child could work for
say... the Red Cross, earn a ticket out of his/her beginnings, go to school, work hard, save money and buy a house right next door to that one. (That is just one example of any number of methods)

No hippie bullshit needed.
#13903610
the nationalism on this thread is getting way out of hand, not just the America lovers but everybody else that just randomly hates every aspect of another land mass are really just the same.

I agree 100% (especially in my case). I believe that Kflint started this thread as a humorous reversal of the traditional anti American vomit that abounds in this neck of the woods. So I decided to play along and I've enjoyed it. And I've found that our ETs don't like it much when Americans respond in kind. That's just the way it is. They can dish it out but they can't take it.

And the fact is that the EU with its two trillion dollar advantage in GDP and 200,000,000 advantage in population needs the US Military in Europe like it needs a hole in the head. The Ru isn't the threat that it was back in the day and is no threat the the USA at all. But the RU has a far greater potential NOW to screw around with Europe than ever before (The EU is energy (among other things) dependent on the RU) and at the moment Russia is starting to understand this and is in recovery. Its time for the USA to withdraw from NATO and let the chips fall where they may. And in point of fact between France and the UK the EU has plenty of nukes to deter any absurd nuclear threat. The USA is not needed in Europe and the USA doesn't need the EU.

Kflint wrote:Nope, no magic genie to come save the day. Yet, with hard work and dedication that same child could work for
say... the Red Cross, earn a ticket out of his/her beginnings, go to school, work hard, save money and buy a house right next door to that one. (That is just one example of any number of methods)

No hippie bullshit needed.


What was that you said once about 'delayed gratification' through the miracle of hard work? I agree.
#14188876
Im just going to post this here

We (Australia) rate Economic Freedom at 3rd and rate the same in political Freedom far above of america, our Quality-of-life index is once again very high rating 6th still far above America and most European nations, we have higher wages and lower taxs than most developed nations, Its (as i believe) the best place to live currently. By all accounts we have more freedoms, live longer and have more money to spend than american and Europinions, and we the second most developed nation on earth while america only ranks 4th and the UK ranks 28th. We Also were the first people in history to have voted a nation into existence—a nation created in peace, not in war. We are one of the oldest parliamentary democracies in the world. Our parliament has a proud history of leading the world in social reforms like reasonable working hours, the right of women to vote, a fair wage, an independent umpire for industrial disputes, compensation for injured workers, and provision of the age and widow's pensions. Because of these facts i cant help but to be proud.


In other words if you want to live longer, get payed more, taxed less, have more freedoms then Americans and live in a state more advance than all american states then yep move to Australia other wise injoy your declining Economic and political Freedoms and you increasing wealth gap and rising poor.
#14188931
Quite a tedious thread.

I sometimes join in these things but find it increasingly boring these days.

While Europeans and American bicker like children, others are watching.

Russia Invading Europe isnt something I worry about. Loss of western influence is. In fact Russia is getting closer to europe and the transatlantic partnership in trade has been the backbone of human progress for the last century.
The Irishman...

There's one opinion in this life which matters to[…]

EU-BREXIT

We can ignore your hypothetical voting patterns b[…]

The Next UK PM everybody...

Agreed that those are not aspects to celebrate. […]

Nobody actually thinks that's a joke coming from […]